Great tracks - why are they great??

[peteb]

54 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

I note the use of the pejorative "whiney" (not Whitney! 😁) in order to get a little dig in at our baggy cardigan wearing brethren...

 

 

Have you ever read 'Everybody Loves Our Town', a rather lengthy (but surprisingly readable) tome about the grunge movement in the early 90s. In the book there is a quote from a friend of Alice in Chains, saying that the Seattle sound is 'the sound of middle class kids whining in drop D'! 

 

I agree with some of your other points, to a point. The thing is, just because something hits the mainstream, it doesn't mean that it is automatically cr*p! All art is by nature subjective, but there are levels of ability that you expect a community of musicians to recognise. Remember, we are talking about Whitney here, not Britney! Not that I have anything against La Spears, but Whitney was many levels of talent as a vocalist above her and the vast majority of popular singers. 

 

54 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Bear in mind that many of the world's best musicians (if one counts skill level as best!) are completely dismissed here as unlistenable jazz nonsense!

 

 

That is a good point. I am not the biggest jazz fan, but I accept that there are lots of top musicians out there playing music that I have no interest in. Just because it isn't to my taste, it doesn't mean that it is without value. 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by peteb

[BigRedX]

What makes a track/song great is essentially entirely subjective, and for me it rarely has anything to to with the technical ability of the musicians involved.

 

For me the best music is where the clever or complex features aren't signposted in the sorts of ways that the majority of examples here show, but where you don't notice until you have to deconstruct the song in order to learn it. Subtlety is always best IMO.

Edited November 28, 2023 by BigRedX

[peteb]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

What makes a track/song great is essentially entirely subjective, and for me it rarely has anything to to with the technical ability of the musicians involved.

 

 

A track can be great for many reasons. It can be for the performance (including technical ability) , the songwriting or even the production. 

 

In terms for performance, it can be for a display of technical ability (such as Whitney - see above). However, another record that I personally think is great is 'Another Girl, Another Planet'. The great thing about it is largely down to the vocal delivery, although I wouldn't say that Peter Perrett is a technically great singer by any means! 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by peteb

[Mykesbass]

Sticking very much to the 'eye of the beholder' comment, a track that I'm no big fan of, but surprised it hasn't shown up yet, George Michael Careless Whisper. An incredible pop song, and written when he was still a teenager. No idea what makes it great, but I would argue strongly that it is.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Mykesbass

[Cliff Edge]

Sometimes it’s a recording of a live performance that changes your mind about a performer and performance. I took Neil Diamond a lot more seriously after listening to the Hot August Night album for the first time. Brother Loves Travelling Salvation Show made the hair on the back of my neck tingle. Possibly not to everyone’s taste these days but I still rate it. 
 

[Mykesbass]

1 hour ago, Cliff Edge said:

Sometimes it’s a recording of a live performance that changes your mind about a performer and performance. I took Neil Diamond a lot more seriously after listening to the Hot August Night album for the first time. Brother Loves Travelling Salvation Show made the hair on the back of my neck tingle. Possibly not to everyone’s taste these days but I still rate it. 
 

Simon & Garfunkel Live in Central Park did the same for me.

 

Bridge Over Troubled Water must be on the great song list.

[tauzero]

19 hours ago, peteb said:

 

Absolutely, of course it is. Generally regarded as one of the great (if not the greatest) soul divas of all time, as well one of the top R&B artists!

 

This kind of artistic Marxism bemuses me, the idea that if an artist is outstanding then you must find reasons to say they’re cr*p! There was a thread about great vocalists on here a while ago and there was one guy who hated every great rock vocalist (be it Robert Plant, Chris Cornell, Lou Gramm, Glenn Hughes or Paul Rodgers and many others). He hated them all, in fact the one rock singer he seemed to like was Kurt Cobain! Now, I like whiny, nihilist grunge as much as the next guy, and Nirvana are an example of a band that made a great record without relying on virtuoso performances, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t appreciate great singers! 

 

For the record, my favourite version of I Will Always Love You is the acoustic one that Chris Cornell did in tribute to Whitney a few days after she died. 

 

Why do you think that those of us criticising that particular track are saying that she's crap? I think she was an excellent vocalist, but that her treatment of that particular song was putting technique over conveying the content of the song.

[Minininjarob]

On 27/11/2023 at 08:04, BigRedX said:

 

Deconstructing a song from a musical PoV doesn't tell you why it is great.

He’s really good at picking out not just musicality but production as well. There’s some songs he’s looked at which I have had new appreciation for. 

[casapete]

22 hours ago, Mykesbass said:

Sticking very much to the 'eye of the beholder' comment, a track that I'm no big fan of, but surprised it hasn't shown up yet, George Michael Careless Whisper. An incredible pop song, and written when he was still a teenager. No idea what makes it great, but I would argue strongly that it is.

Although I disagree, I accept that the song is widely considered to be great!
The same 4 chords throughout, and the trademark angst laden vocals which GM used on virtually

everything make it a tedious listen for me.

 

I think what we’re saying in a lot of these posts is that ‘great’ recordings are those which reach out and

speak to the individual in any way. For me , it’s probably the lead vocal that is the main requirement -

it needs to sound like they ‘mean it’ and is ‘from the heart’ for want of a better phrase. Something that

just connects somehow and because we’re all different then we’re all going to react differently to stuff,

hence my aversion to George Michael!
That’s why I’m not great with angry / shouty/ miserable  stuff, or virtuoso / widdly / 100mph solos played

on anything. A few notes by someone like BB King speak more to me than any amount of frantic playing.

[BigRedX]

17 hours ago, Minininjarob said:

He’s really good at picking out not just musicality but production as well. There’s some songs he’s looked at which I have had new appreciation for. 

 

None of the "What Makes This Song Great" videos I have seen spend any significant time on the production. If they did I might still be watching them.

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, casapete said:

A few notes by someone like BB King speak more to me than any amount of frantic playing.

I get that Pete, I love Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush, fantastic song but the part I really like is the lead guitar on the ending, fantastic playing.

[Minininjarob]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

None of the "What Makes This Song Great" videos I have seen spend any significant time on the production. If they did I might still be watching them.

They are meant to be entertaining videos to get you excited about songs, not detailed analysis of production methods. I’m sure there are other people who go into greater depth, which I sure he could do but that’s not his aim. 

[No lust in Jazz]

A problem for me here, is that the use of the word 'Great' is tossed around. I see it used on the Rick Beato series as clickbait to get you to look at a video and provoke comments . My mate uses it to suggest songs for a blues rock covers outfit, "We have to do this, its a great track"

 

Music is so subjective, tracks that I feel are 'great' will mean nothing to another listener. In the main, tracks that I care about underscore a time, a place or life event, these will mean nothing to another listener.

[Mykesbass]

3 hours ago, No lust in Jazz said:

A problem for me here, is that the use of the word 'Great' is tossed around. I see it used on the Rick Beato series as clickbait to get you to look at a video and provoke comments . My mate uses it to suggest songs for a blues rock covers outfit, "We have to do this, its a great track"

 

Music is so subjective, tracks that I feel are 'great' will mean nothing to another listener. In the main, tracks that I care about underscore a time, a place or life event, these will mean nothing to another listener.

I think there needs to be context here. Hotel California is a great track on a universal stage. Ain't No Love in the Heart of the City is a great Blues Rock track. Yes, the latter is subjective, but the former isn't 😏

[Leonard Smalls]

27 minutes ago, Mykesbass said:

the latter is subjective, but the former isn't

I'm afraid any such judgement is entirely subjective.

And I'm the proof! I always hated Hotel California....

😄

[Mykesbass]

23 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

I'm afraid any such judgement is entirely subjective.

And I'm the proof! I always hated Hotel California....

😄

Doesn't stop it from being great. I also nominated Careless Whisper which I've never liked.

[BigRedX]

12 hours ago, Mykesbass said:

Doesn't stop it from being great. I also nominated Careless Whisper which I've never liked.

 

So please, for those of us who don't "get it" please explain exactly what makes Hotel California great in purely objective terms.

[peteb]

41 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

So please, for those of us who don't "get it" please explain exactly what makes Hotel California great in purely objective terms.

 

Iconic track, which is very well written with great lyrics that seem to tell a story (although people can argue about exactly what it means), interesting tune with some slightly unusual influences (i.e. latin and reggae, which is not what you would necessarily have expected). This is all well played by a musically good band, with a strong lead vocal (not to mention great harmonies). At the end of the track, you have an iconic two minute guitar solo (duet!) that people from the mid-west (you know, places like Wolverhampton) and indeed, anywhere else, can sing along to every note. 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by peteb

[Japhet]

Can be all sorts of things;

 

Big production - Everybody Wants To Rule the World

Simplicity - Shipbuilding

Emotion - I Can't Make You Love Me

Foot tapper - Sharp Dressed Man

 

Some songs are also extra special through personal connections.

[BigRedX]

44 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

Iconic track, which is very well written with great lyrics that seem to tell a story (although people can argue about exactly what it means), interesting tune with some slightly unusual influences (i.e. latin and reggae, which is not what you would necessarily have expected). This is all well played by a musically good band, with a strong lead vocal (not to mention great harmonies). At the end of the track, you have an iconic two minute guitar solo (duet!) that people from the mid-west (you know, places like Wolverhampton) and indeed, anywhere else, can sing along to every note. 

 

"Iconic" and "great" are subjective terms.

 

The song also comes from a time when the costs involved in recording and distributing "popular" music were an effective barrier to just anything getting released. So either the artist had to believe enough in a song to "put their money were their mouth was" or persuade someone else (a record label) to do it. Also the familiarity of time helps to make a song more popular. Are there any new songs recorded recorded in the last 10 years that you consider to be on a par with Hotel California?

 

I think a better test of whether any of these songs are greatly objectively "great" will be if people still think so in another 50 years time.

[Dad3353]

'Great', to me means that it stands the test of time. Whatever it is that makes it so is very variable, with many factors mentioned above, but beyond the individual (I like it' or 'I hate it'...), it's still being played, performed, talked about and appreciated years, decades or centuries after the original creation. So many examples form the classical world, naturally, but all genres have their 'greats'. Traditional folk, ethnic music, brass bands, electro-pop; even jazz..! 

 

Edit : Crossed posts with that from @BigRedX above ^^; I'd be pretty certain that 'Hotel California' will still be considered 'great', a century later. Why..? Because it'll be listened to where other tunes have been forgotten, or become 'niche'. I might be wrong; rendez-vous set for 2123, maybe..? 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Dad3353

[Mykesbass]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

So please, for those of us who don't "get it" please explain exactly what makes Hotel California great in purely objective terms.

Its universal appeal crosses continents, age groups and social classes. I have no idea why this track in particular, but it just seems to have a powerful effect on a vast number of people. 

[peteb]

15 minutes ago, Mykesbass said:

Its universal appeal crosses continents, age groups and social classes. I have no idea why this track in particular, but it just seems to have a powerful effect on a vast number of people. 

 

Which is probably part of the unquantifiable factor that makes it 'great'? 

 

[Bolo]

Where would 'great' score? 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Bolo

[Dad3353]

4 minutes ago, Bolo said:

Where would 'great' score? 

 

Is 'Most People' not vast enough..?