Studio Etiquette

[cheddatom]

Mix notes/revisions can be good. I once had a band record 4 songs with me. I'd double tracked each of two guitarists' rhythm parts. Guitarist A was hard left and slight right, guitarist B was hard right and slight left. The band sent me a 4 page PDF document of mix revisions, one page per song. For each song, they'd just copied and pasted the same 4 bullet points. One of the points was "The guitars should be stereo". Having explained the concept of "stereo", and after explaining that it's not possible to turn up every component in a mix, I thought we were making real progress. I was pretty happy with the result, then I got another message "Now that you've mixed the instruments correctly, we can concentrate on the vocals. We'd like you to give them more of a hard rock edge"

[Buddster]

32 minutes ago, cheddatom said:

and after explaining that it's not possible to turn up every component in a mix,

Classic band mixing, everything louder than everything else. 

 

More than once I've had the situation (as engineer and assistant) where the mix sounded great and about to be mastered, the vocals got turned up, so the the guitar goes up, then the keyboards and then 6 hours later you're walking out into the morning sunshine thinking what the hell just happened! 

[tauzero]

8 hours ago, cheddatom said:

Loads, I really don't mind the instrument faults, I have decent guitars and basses for people to use, and spare strings.

 

I was recording at one studio, in the control room, which had a lot of electronic equipment in it and the active bass I'd taken was picking up interference. The engineer offered me the studio bass, a Squier P,  which would have been fine if I played a 4-string not a 5-string and liked playing basses which would be better suited to firing arrows. So I got my passive bass out and it was fine (I preferred the neck on the active one). An alternative would have been to go into the main studio - in fact, I'd rather have gone out and played on the street than play the studio bass.

[cheddatom]

31 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I was recording at one studio, in the control room, which had a lot of electronic equipment in it and the active bass I'd taken was picking up interference. The engineer offered me the studio bass, a Squier P,  which would have been fine if I played a 4-string not a 5-string and liked playing basses which would be better suited to firing arrows. So I got my passive bass out and it was fine (I preferred the neck on the active one). An alternative would have been to go into the main studio - in fact, I'd rather have gone out and played on the street than play the studio bass.

I'd have let you record on the street! Whatever it takes to get the best performance is my mantra 

[amnesia]

2 hours ago, cheddatom said:

Mix notes/revisions can be good. I once had a band record 4 songs with me. I'd double tracked each of two guitarists' rhythm parts. Guitarist A was hard left and slight right, guitarist B was hard right and slight left. The band sent me a 4 page PDF document of mix revisions, one page per song. For each song, they'd just copied and pasted the same 4 bullet points. One of the points was "The guitars should be stereo". Having explained the concept of "stereo", and after explaining that it's not possible to turn up every component in a mix, I thought we were making real progress. I was pretty happy with the result, then I got another message "Now that you've mixed the instruments correctly, we can concentrate on the vocals. We'd like you to give them more of a hard rock edge"

 

I probably know some of the bands you are talking about, but I wouldn't even try to guess from your posts...

[WinterMute]

On 29/11/2023 at 11:50, BigRedX said:

 

It had never occurred before because I was using Logic as the time code source and had set 0:0:0:00 as the first beat of the first bar which meant it was impossible to go "earlier" than that. Even when I was striping tape at home the code started at 0:0:0:00 and before that there would be no code to sync to.

 

And the words "Digital" and "Tape" should never go together. All the disadvantages of tape with few of the benefits of digital. 

 

Ah, the days of sessions with a Studer 827, a Mitsi 32 track and an Atari running some version of Notator with that SMPTE box on the side...

 

I still occasionally run sessions involving a 24 track, but it's usually with the CLASP system as an input to protools.

 

I have expectations of behaviour in studios, I expect the sessions to be pre-produced so that everyone knows what is to be achieved, how it's to be achieved and that everyone involved is capable of achieving it. Unless the session is a songwriting or experimental session, it'll run to an agreed plan. I also expect decent timekeeping and communication, and not to be surprised at 02:00 with "Can we just add..." type requests when the session is supposed to finish at 23:00. I don't do overnights anymore, tired musicians don't play well, tired engineers make mistakes.

 

I also expect consideration and manners, regardless of how badly things might be going, and they do go badly wrong occasionally, I have thrown clients out of studios for being rude/violent/drunk/high, and shall continue to do so. It's baseline good behaviour. 

 

The best sessions are well planned, well prepared and well managed, that way whatever magic may happen can do so without technical constraints.

 

That isn't to say there won't be a bassist standing on an 8x10 or a singer running in circles screaming, because those things happen, but I want the process nailed down before the chaos can start.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 28/11/2023 at 23:22, Downunderwonder said:

I haven't spent much time in recording studios. I think if there was a guitar left out I would assume it was there to be played and I might well pick it up and play it without asking first.

 

 

I think most people assume instruments left around in recording studios are there so the sound engineer can make you use them rather than your own instrument because they are too lazy to adjust the eq....

[skidder652003]

Whats everyone take on playing to a click track?

At our last studio visit the engineer rather wished he had played to a click to make his life a little easier when overdubbing vocals ( I think thats what he said but I could be mistaken)

We are due in next week and our guitarist doesn't want to do click as he says it'll take too long. We intend to only record one song for the day, like last time.

we have recorded a whole album over 2 weekdns which we weren't particularly happy with as it sounds a bit rushed and under produced.

[TimR]

You need to rehearse to a click track before turning up to the studio and expecting everything to just work. 

 

 

[Lozz196]

I’m fine to record to a click, the track might vary a bit throughout but it reins it in a bit and keeps it largely under control. 

[amnesia]

26 minutes ago, TimR said:

You need to rehearse to a click track before turning up to the studio and expecting everything to just work. 

 

 

Indeed. Its a skill unto itself.

 

Slight derail....

 

I only recently discovered that the electronic "beep beep boop beep" type click is trumped by a real marmite tone...cowbell!

 

It works for me better than an electronic beep because its more percussive. Since to me it doesn't fit, it stands out more.

 

I've also used a mix of click, drums and in one case I needed the vocal too for some odd reason...

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, skidder652003 said:

Whats everyone take on playing to a click track?

At our last studio visit the engineer rather wished he had played to a click to make his life a little easier when overdubbing vocals ( I think thats what he said but I could be mistaken)

We are due in next week and our guitarist doesn't want to do click as he says it'll take too long. We intend to only record one song for the day, like last time.

we have recorded a whole album over 2 weekdns which we weren't particularly happy with as it sounds a bit rushed and under produced.

 

Depends on the song and the musicians and also the skill of the engineer. 

 

The Terrortones would always try out any song we intended to record with and without a click. Some benefited from a constant tempo, and were recorded with the drummer plating to the click and the rest of the band playing to the drummer, others needed more push and pull between the different sections than playing around the click could achieve and they were done without.

 

As has been said you need to practice playing to a click first, I've also worked with some otherwise great drummers who simply couldn't play when they were no longer dictating the tempo.

 

And while having a bar structure on the recorded tracks can make life easier for locating drop in points for overdubs a good engineer shouldn't have to have them. It was all done by ear (and tape counter numbers) in the days of analogue tape. And besides all decent modern DAWs will be able to work out flexible bars and tempo from the recorded tracks to follow a "musical" structure. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by BigRedX

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, skidder652003 said:

Whats everyone take on playing to a click track?

At our last studio visit the engineer rather wished he had played to a click to make his life a little easier when overdubbing vocals ( I think thats what he said but I could be mistaken)

We are due in next week and our guitarist doesn't want to do click as he says it'll take too long. We intend to only record one song for the day, like last time.

we have recorded a whole album over 2 weekdns which we weren't particularly happy with as it sounds a bit rushed and under produced.

 

The two times I've recorded in a proper studio we did four songs over two days.

[Stub Mandrel]

36 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Depends on the song and the musicians and also the skill of the engineer. 

 

The Terrortones would always try out any song we intended to record with and without a click. Some benefited from a constant tempo, and were recorded with the drummer plating to the click and the rest of the band playing to the drummer, others needed more push and pull between the different sections than playing around the click could achieve and they were done without.

 

As has been said you need to practice playing to a click first, I've also worked with some otherwise great drummers who simply couldn't play when they were no longer dictating the tempo.

 

And while having a bar structure on the recorded tracks can make life easier for locating drop in points for overdubs a good engineer shouldn't have to have them. It was all done by ear (and tape counter numbers) in the days of analogue tape. And besides all decent modern DAWs will be able to work out flexible bars and tempo from the recorded tracks to follow a "musical" structure. 

 

A good band can make tempo changes part of tne song.

[neepheid]

5 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

A good band can make tempo changes part of tne song.

 

That's what we keep telling ourselves...

 

[Buddster]

1 hour ago, skidder652003 said:

and our guitarist doesn't want to do click as he says it'll take too long

Just make a note on who takes the longest to get thier sound/lay down thier parts. 

Just saying... 

[Buddster]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

a good engineer shouldn't have to have them. It was all done by ear (and tape counter numbers) in the days of analogue tape.

Quite so. A good tape op would write out the song structure with timings and if they were clever work the rough tempo (or find the time for 5 bars, to allow for take up) and add that to the preroll so when doing over dubs the tape would always start from the same place so the musicians always knew where it would start from. 

Taking pride in doing that right was a pleasure 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Buddster

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, amnesia said:

needed the vocal too for some odd reason...

Groove is not contained in the click unless your groove is straight 1 2 3 4.

[SteveXFR]

Before we recorded we did a couple DIY recordings, one with a click and one without. We all thought the one without felt like it had more energy in the chorus so that's how we chose to record. I don't think it will always be the right way for us to record. I think one of our new songs would benefit from a dead solid tempo.

[TimR]

Not safe for work. Lots of profanity. 

 

This guy is very funny, but think he hits the mark very well. Part 1 and 2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

You could banish Glenn Fricker to the underworld by facing him down with a Precision with 20-year-old flats fitted.

 

I get the feeling that many (if not most) of the bands who record with him have barely gigged.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, amnesia said:

Indeed. Its a skill unto itself.

 

Slight derail....

 

I only recently discovered that the electronic "beep beep boop beep" type click is trumped by a real marmite tone...cowbell!

 

It works for me better than an electronic beep because its more percussive. Since to me it doesn't fit, it stands out more.

 

I've also used a mix of click, drums and in one case I needed the vocal too for some odd reason...

 

Developing on that a little, I like to set up a quick, simple drum pattern and use that as a click. It's still metronomic, but it feels more real and is easy to play with than beeps and boops.

[TimR]

27 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I get the feeling that many (if not most) of the bands who record with him have barely gigged.

 

He's just playing on stereotypes for comedic effect. We've all met those band members. 

[BreadBin]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

many (if not most)

One of my oldest mates and sometime musical collaborators produces music under that name!

[skidder652003]

3 hours ago, Buddster said:

Just make a note on who takes the longest to get thier sound/lay down thier parts. 

Just saying... 

It won't be me!

Straight into the SSL desk!

https://www.arefriendselectric.studio/

Edited November 30, 2023 by skidder652003