Active PA Cabs, What have you got and are they any good?

[Dan Dare]

22 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

OK two questions. Brands like Yamaha, RCF and more recently QSC have speakers i their ranges that cater for different price points. Has anyone compared the mid-priced speakers with the higher end offerings from these brands?

 

Taking about some of the other brands, do their top end speakers compete with the lower priced offerings from the market leaders? I would love to hear an HH TRE against a Yamaha DBR. A Wharfedale Typhon against an RCF ART 7 series. Of course, not all brands have the same sizes, IN some the smallest is a 10 whereas in another it is an 8.

 

It wouldn't make much sense for brands to make their budget offerings too good and take sales from their higher priced lines. Often, companies will own other brands that cater for different price points - Yamaha owns Nexo, which is a pro' audio PA brand, for example.

[Chienmortbb]

28 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

It wouldn't make much sense for brands to make their budget offerings too good

Most of the brands I was thinking of, Yamaha, RCF, QSC for example have what I call mid-priced speakers at the lower end of their ranges. I would define that as £400-600 region. I would define budget as sub £300. So for QSC K12.2 is £949 while the CP12 is £611. Yamaha DZR12 £1100 while DBR12 is £439.

[Chienmortbb]

I had a few hours to kill while herself was going around the Range, Matalan, Pavers and Dunhelm. So popped into Absolute Music. I was moseying around the speaker display when a keen salesperson asked if I would like a demo. So off we trotted to the biggest rehearsal room with a pair of HH TRE 1201s and a pair of RCF ART 912s. 

 

I tried some of my favourite tracks on both, at medium then loud volume. At medium volume there was very little to choose, as the volume was increased the RCFs kept the high-end clearer and more defined. I could feel, and I believe hear, cabinet resonances in both speakers, although more so in the HHs. The RCFs are bigger and heavier, so I suppose that would be expected.

 

Were the RCFs worth almost twice the price of the HH? Clearly, it does take a lot of money to get small improvements, but whether the extra cost is worth it probably depends on how big your bank balance is. The HH are £299 and the RCFS £550. Either would be more than adequate for vocals only and work fine with a sub.

[Stub Mandrel]

Cheapskate here.

 

8" HH which is actually really good.

 

Two 15" '600 watt' fun generation speakers [to be fair Thomann list as being 240W rms]. Nothing special but seem to be fine as vocal only speakers for rehearsal/small gigs. For bigger gigs they will be used as monitors.

 

Don't particularly recommend them but if you are on a very tight budget, they do a job.

[JPJ]

So as I've said on here before, my rig consists of two EV ZLX15P's and two old Peavey active 15" subs rated at 400W. We put the whole five piece band through this via a Behringer XR18 and a DBX Drvierack PA360, and I seem to get a decent sound out of this setup as I have had compliments from more knowledgeable sound people. The heat that the ZLX's run at worries me (no fan, just passive heat sink through the amp backplate) but for the number of gigs I do (circa 20 per annum) this system is all I want to pay for. 

I have been tempted by the JBL JRX mentioned previously as a single box per side, but the size/weight puts me off. It does make me think that with the advancement in loudspeaker components (a good 12" now beating an older 15 etc) whether one of our intrepid loudspeaker cabinet designers couldn't come up with a passive solution using a combination of say 8" and 12" cones in a box that is physically large enough to impress the ladies, whilst providing a much better single box-per-side solution (yes I know the subs should be centred, and having tried this, I know that this works so much better but doesnt work in the average pub setting).

[Downunderwonder]

Who was that masked Mod?

Edited December 16, 2023 by Downunderwonder

[Dan Dare]

On 15/12/2023 at 12:50, JPJ said:

I have been tempted by the JBL JRX mentioned previously as a single box per side, but the size/weight puts me off. It does make me think that with the advancement in loudspeaker components (a good 12" now beating an older 15 etc) whether one of our intrepid loudspeaker cabinet designers couldn't come up with a passive solution using a combination of say 8" and 12" cones in a box that is physically large enough to impress the ladies, whilst providing a much better single box-per-side solution (yes I know the subs should be centred, and having tried this, I know that this works so much better but doesn't work in the average pub setting).

 

You don't need to centre subs, but it is best to place them together. Frequencies become less directional the lower they get. Depending on room acoustics, it can be better to place them at one side to take advantage of boundary reinforcement, floor coupling, etc. One good sub will easily outperform two average ones

 

The problem with large, one box cab's is that they can be a bit precarious when put on poles, which you have to do to get the best coverage/dispersion of higher frequencies. If a drunk punter crashes into a stand whilst dancing a bit too enthusiastically, things can go pretty pear shaped. It's better to have compact top boxes on poles and keep the sub(s) on the floor, from both performance and safety standpoints.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Dan Dare

[Phil Starr]

On 14/12/2023 at 17:04, Chienmortbb said:

I had a few hours to kill while herself was going around the Range, Matalan, Pavers and Dunhelm. So popped into Absolute Music. I was moseying around the speaker display when a keen salesperson asked if I would like a demo. So off we trotted to the biggest rehearsal room with a pair of HH TRE 1201s and a pair of RCF ART 912s. 

 

I tried some of my favourite tracks on both, at medium then loud volume. At medium volume there was very little to choose, as the volume was increased the RCFs kept the high-end clearer and more defined. I could feel, and I believe hear, cabinet resonances in both speakers, although more so in the HHs. The RCFs are bigger and heavier, so I suppose that would be expected.

 

Were the RCFs worth almost twice the price of the HH? Clearly, it does take a lot of money to get small improvements, but whether the extra cost is worth it probably depends on how big your bank balance is. The HH are £299 and the RCFS £550. Either would be more than adequate for vocals only and work fine with a sub.

I think the choice of speaker is all about practicality. Your stage sound is more about the ability of the person mixing. Ultimately without someone out in the audience mixing dynamically then your sound will always be compromised. Let's be honest here Lewis Hamilton in a VW Polo would beat me round Silverstone in  a Golf GTI by a very big margin. Buying a top of the range RCF (remembering that the ART series are their base range) won't guarantee better sound in practice. Sadly it won't improve my bass playing either

 

The thing about designing active cabs with digital signal processing is that it's easy to get the design optimised. Class D gives the designer unlimited power at low cost and weight. It's cheaper to use a 1,000Wamp across the range and throttle it back in the smaller speakers than to make 6 different amps across the range. The crossover design, frequency correction and speaker protection are all done in the digital domain and cheaper components can be optimised to give a great sound. I've heard bands sounding great with Alto's, HH, Laney and even the much reviled Mackie Thumps. All plastic cabs are compromised by resonances, to a lesser extent all cabs even wooden ones are compromised by resonances and the best plastic cabs will probably beat the worst wooden ones.

 

I've gradually upgraded my PA over the years, Passive Yamaha->Wharfedale Titans->Wharfedale EVP's->RCF ART310->RCF ART 745. Do the RCF 745's sound great? Absolutely, but so do the 310's with my duo but I used to get more compliments for the sound with the Yamaha's, everyone else has got better. Do we get a better audience reaction, only when we play better  The biggest compliment I ever got for sound was at a free festival, I used to run FOH at the Windsor free festivals on stage 3. Steve Winwood turned up with Traffic and refused to go on the main stage because the sound was awful despite them hiring in proper touring kit. He rocked up at my stage 3 with a load of borrowed mismatched gear including a mix of WEM columns and some home built Altec A7's. All I really had was enthusiasm and a set of 24 year old ears, they sounded great because they were great musicians and i didn't get in their way.

 

So get the best PA you can, but don't worry if it is modest. Match it to your needs not someone else's. Does it fit your car? can you lift it onto the poles? Are you playing Wembley of the Dog and Duck? Are you miking up drums and putting bass through without backline? Singing four part harmonies and needing the vocals to be crystal but not loud? 

 

So taking the example above the ART912's can be safely pushed a bit louder and will probably take a little more bass and deliver it a bit more cleanly. If you aren't needing that extra volume and you are only putting vocals through the PA then why pay extra? If you are using SM58's as vocal mics and the quality of your singers voice isn't the most important thing about your band anyway the 912 will do a good job, but it is limited by a 1" horn and you might want to look at the ART 732 if the vocal quality is more important to you. A 'good' speaker is just one that matches your needs. A great sound is more about playing well and the time and effort you put in to squeezing performance out of your rig.

[Paul S]

I'm still massively evangelistic about the pair of RCF EVOX 8s my band invested in 3 years ago.  They don't feed back so can sit behind us - no backline or monitoring needed with appropriate ear protection.  Routinely we use it for 2x vox/bass/kick drum but on occasion all the drums.  Once in a blue moon we'll mic up the guitar amp and stick it through.  Absolutely crystal clear.  Massively loud if needed, we've used them outside a couple of times, usually it is coasting.  Super easy and fast to set up/ break down.  The units I believe weigh 24kg but sit on the floor but, in any case, our drummer is a fit forty year old farmer  He just picks up one in each hand and sticks them in his landy.

[jimmyb625]

I had a pair of Alto TS312's, with a TS515s subwoofer. This combination worked well for us as a six/seven piece, with everyone going through it. 

I've subsequently gained access to a pair of RCF945's which we use with the Alto sub (or if the drummer is just using a cajon and not full kit, we'll not bother with the sub). When we do this, the TS312's get used as monitors for keys and drums. 

At some point in the future, I'll probably see if I can get hold of an 18" RCF sub, but I'm not in a particular rush. I think the rig we have will cover us for any eventuality now where we're supplying the PA. If anything bigger comes along, we'd be looking at hiring (if it's our show) or using the venue's own system.

I've used the Wharfedale Titan 12's with a guest band, who brought them for extra monitors and they seemed ok. I've also experienced people supplying The Box stage monitors, which performed well in the application they were used for.

As Phil says above, the skill of the operator has a far greater impact on the quality of the sound, than the boxes you're using.

[TimR]

On 21/12/2023 at 02:46, jimmyb625 said:

I had a pair of Alto TS312's, with a TS515s subwoofer.

 

Looking at buying a pair of TS312 for general use. How are they without the sub? 

[Chienmortbb]

On 18/12/2023 at 09:10, Paul S said:

I'm still massively evangelistic about the pair of RCF EVOX 8s my band invested in 3 years ago.  They don't feed back so can sit behind us - no backline or monitoring needed with appropriate ear protection.  Routinely we use it for 2x vox/bass/kick drum but on occasion all the drums.  Once in a blue moon we'll mic up the guitar amp and stick it through.  Absolutely crystal clear.  Massively loud if needed, we've used them outside a couple of times, usually it is coasting.  Super easy and fast to set up/ break down.  The units I believe weigh 24kg but sit on the floor but, in any case, our drummer is a fit forty year old farmer  He just picks up one in each hand and sticks them in his landy.

I don't think I have used the EVOX range, but none of the other "Tea Chest Bass/Sub on a Stick" systems from Bose/Yamaha/LD Systems have impressed me. Maybe I should ask Tim at Absolute if I can waste another hour of his time.

[jimmyb625]

45 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Looking at buying a pair of TS312 for general use. How are they without the sub? 

I like them, I've used them without the sub when we've not put the drums through them and they worked well. A friend of mine us a DJ and he managed to fry the TS315, but that's because he's a DJ...

If used at sensible levels, I think they're a good choice for the money.

[TimR]

1 hour ago, jimmyb625 said:

I like them, I've used them without the sub when we've not put the drums through them and they worked well. A friend of mine us a DJ and he managed to fry the TS315, but that's because he's a DJ...

If used at sensible levels, I think they're a good choice for the money.

 

Cheers. I'm of the firm belief that if you know what you're doing with bass drum EQ you can get away without using Subs. Certainly for crowds up to 200 people.

[Woodinblack]

I had 2 alto 212s for a while, but lacked a bit in a few places. Got a cheap 12" sub which worked well outside, didn't bother inside. Eventually got fed up with a bit of a lack of clarity on the vocals, picked up a single RCF Evox 8 which made the vocals really clear, so now gig with that and one of the 212s.

A bit random but mostly works

[vsmith1]

In one band, we've used Presonus AIR - both a pair of tops, and an AIR15s sub. No issues at all. The sub was bought with a castors kit, which is useful. In the other band, one member has Alto tops and I added a DB Technolgoies SUB12 sub, as I played small venues with just my GK Plex DI and IEMs and the drummer used a e-kit.  The DBT SUB12 sub is not as large, heavy, costly or as powerful as the AIR15s. 

 

I note that Presonus have been acquired by Fender. 

[Woodinblack]

OK, I need to do something as it gets issues. I started off with two alto 212s and a behringer 12 sub (only oudoors the last bit) years ago, and we gigged with that a lot. Originally just vocals / sax and bass drum outside went through, and some keys, But the were always complaints about the lack of volume of the singer. I managed to get a RCF Evox 8, so now we gig with one of those and one of the 212s. I have taken the sub to some outdoor gigs, and it does help with the drum kit.  The clarity of the vocals has improved, and now we put a bit of guitar through it too but still complaints about the volume of the vocals and sax, but even though there is more volume I can put up, it starts getting feedback after a while, especially from the sax (wireless mic inside the sax bell). All of this comes from an X18. 

I must admit I should ring out the system with pink noise and a proper microphone but I haven't.

All the PA stuff is bought by me and carried to gigs by me. 

So I would like to do something to improve it, so if you were in this situation and you had £500 as a max to spend, but not much other space to store and not much incentive to carry, what would you do? Yes, I am aware that better stuff exists beyond £500, but that is completely irrelevant!

In an ideal world I would get another evox8, but they have gone up a lot.

[Chienmortbb]

Of us.  Long time since I used an X18. What vocals are too quiet? FoH or monitors? 

 

Edited March 2 by Chienmortbb

[Woodinblack]

FoH - I use in-ears, we don't have any monitors.  Me and the drummer have in ears, the singer is out the front and doesn't complain. The guitarist complains about this, but I don't see his hand going in his pocket, I have spare monitor channels!

Its normally the audience saying the vocals are too quiet. There is possibly also an issue the singer is not very clear, as the drummer when he sings is fairly clear, but we can't change him (we have changed his Mic)

[Happy Jack]

Have you tried running the lead vocalist through a Mic Mechanic?

 

[Woodinblack]

20 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Have you tried running the lead vocalist through a Mic Mechanic?

 

I haven't, although considering I have one, it is not a bad shout!

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 31/12/2023 at 13:31, TimR said:

 

Cheers. I'm of the firm belief that if you know what you're doing with bass drum EQ you can get away without using Subs. Certainly for crowds up to 200 people.

From the standpoint of frequency response perhaps, but...in order for the high frequencies to be heard main cabs must be elevated enough to place the high frequency radiator above the heads of the audience. In order to prevent feedback the main cabs must be placed in front of the mics. In order to get maximum low frequency extension and output the low frequency sources must be on the floor, close to a wall, and if there's more than one clustered less than 1/4 wavelength apart. You can't achieve these goals without separate subs and mains. That being the case there's no point in paying for and schlepping mains loaded with more than one twelve, while a higher quality ten loaded cab will function better than a lower quality fifteen loaded cab.

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

FoH - I use in-ears, we don't have any monitors.  Me and the drummer have in ears, the singer is out the front and doesn't complain. The guitarist complains about this, but I don't see his hand going in his pocket, I have spare monitor channels!

It’s normally the audience saying the vocals are too quiet. There is possibly also an issue the singer is not very clear, as the drummer when he sings is fairly clear, but we can't change him (we have changed his Mic)

I agree about using a Mic Mechanic but I am not sure that can correct everything. Is the singer standing close enough to the mic? This would allow you to reduce the gain. 
 

 Evox8 is one of the new generation of mini line arrays plus sub. These “sub on a stick” systems often have the HF/mid driveway slightly different horizontal angles such that the reflections that cause feedback are coming back to the mics at different angles, this is supposed to reduce feedback. I wonder whether, by using the Alto cab too, you are tending to negate the one real benefit of the Evox8?

 

No real science behind these thoughts though. 

[Woodinblack]

He is close enough, just a bit muffled. Could be the feedback caused by the alto, although at practices I just use the evo and can get feedback there. To be fair most of the time at practices it is the sax, although often at the gigs it can be.

[Phil Starr]

Like all these things you have to isolate one thing at a time and solve that problem, so forgive me if I ask stupid questions.

 

I think you are saying that you have plenty of gain left and other instruments and vocals are loud enough through the PA just not the lead vocal and sax, and that you can't turn them up because of feedback issues. Logically that says your PA is probably loud enough and clear enough elsewhere and the problem is with the mics or possibly with the musicians and the way they are using the mics. You need to deal with them separately.

 

Sax first: difficult things to mic up. What mic are you using and how is it fixed to the sax? Feedback issues are usually to do with setting off resonances and occur at particular frequencies, you should be able to use the x18 to identify the frequencies and a bit of eq might give you more gain. The mouth of a horn is quite a resonant space and moving the mic might well shift the resonances or even reduce them. What sort of quality is the mic?

 

Anyway I suggest you go onto YouTube and have a look for some tutorials on Sax, this might be a start

Then your vocalist, you say they sound muffled? First of all what mic are they using? Shure SM58? Is it genuine? There are a lot of fakes out there and even more clones. If the drummer's mic is clear and the vocalists isn't then get them to swap for a few minutes at a rehearsal. If the drummer goes muffled and the vocalist clear then you know what the proble is and a new mic is in order. If not then it's the vocalist at fault. A whole heap of issues are possible.  I've seen vocalists off axis singing with the mic pointing at the side of their mouth or even at their cheeks. i've seen mics held at a steep angle to the mouth so they are singing into the side of the mic which will lose the higher frequencies. They cover the back of the mic capsule with their hands touching the rear of the grille or even draping their finger over it to look cool. Putting your hand anywhere near the grille is a recipe for feedback and of course it's pretty hard to really get on top of the mic, 2cm is too far away for most vocal mics. Halving the distance to 1cm gives you a 6db gain and reduction in feedback halve again to 0.5cm  and its 12db. Again You Tube has loads of videos on mic technique.

 

You don't say if the Altos are TS212's or TX212's, the old TS's are better but you can test out any speaker with a good quality recording which at least should show up any faults in the speakers.

 

Finally how have you equalised the PA, just a thought but I've seen so many people start with a smiley face eq with treble and bass boosted. That's guaranteed to push the vocal range (mids) right back and give you feedback issues.

 

So hang on to your £500 for a while and be really clear what the issue is before you spend, it might not be your speakers.