Compression

[clauster]

Compression is the one effect I really know and understand. I've had a lot of pedal compressors over the years, plus a couple of rack ones (Alesis and Drawmer).

We all use them for different things - limiting, punch and sustain spring to mind immediately. Good for making other dynamic effects more consistent (envelope filters, overdirve). Can also be used to mask poor dynamic control.

There's a really good sticky in the effects forum on compression.

Whether or not you're right to use it is up to you - if you're happy using it - it brings something to your tone, need the punch, stabilises your dynamics before a really fussy pedal (older octavers spring to mind), great.

If you're not happy beacuse you feel you're using it to cover up for poor picking hand technique, either lower your expectations of yourself until you are happy or get practising and put the comp away.

[Mr Fudge]

I used to panic about compressors and which one does what. I simply use the "natural" compressor on my ME50. To be honest my ME50 is becoming an elaborate tuner these days, although I have certainly had my money out of it in the past.

I am finding a great sound now through my passive 75RI Jazz MB450 and 2xAE12 Bergs. The Bergs are a few months old and are really starting to sound sweet. Also I have found a little bit of crunch from the MB VLE filter and for some added puch I tweek the top tweeter on my Bergs. If I roll the compressor off the ME50 I don't really think there is anything in it. To complete the picture I might install a badass as I miss my old one. I think I know what it did now.

Playing on Saturday at a party I was aware a few seasoned musos were about and a drummer in a successful tribute band complemented me about my tone and thought I had been playing a Ricky? I was pleased about this though as I think it proves one thing beyond doub t. 99% of your tone comes from your fingers.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Mr Fudge

[WinterMute]

[quote name='51m0n' post='484967' date='May 11 2009, 12:17 PM']Other than the highlighted statement I think this is a great post.

Unless you set a compressor to an unbelievable extreme then the statement:-

[b]What compression really does is makes you lazy in the observance of your dynamic control, and it robs you of the ability to use volume as expression[/b]

is hogwash IMO & IME both live and in the studio. You are saying here that no matter how light the touch a player could not make the result quieter if a compressor was on.

That is not the case.

With sensible/normal compression settings on a bass (even for fairly obvious or heavy compression) the player still has the ability to back off the volume from their fingers to below the threshold that the comp is set at. Since no one ever sets a threshold at -infinity db. It just is not done.

Now anywhere below that threshold dynamic control is as if there were no compressor.

Up to that threshold you have to back off by the ratio setting more than otherwise.

In reality with any ratio I've ever used up to about 10:1 this is not even hard to do. It just takes a couple of minutes of playing around to find the required amount of gentleness to get the effect you are after.

So you can in fact play with dynamics when you have a comp engaged, especially if its set to do some sensible levelling.

Also the perceived loudness of a sound is not just as a result of its volume, but also its envelope and timbre and while a compressor has an effect on both, playing more gently will still have a huge effect on both even with a comp engaged.

IMO & IME both live and in a studio.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess thats what you get for playing rock and recording rock and metal for a living!

There is a general inability to discern dynamics anyway, due to the over use of compressors in mixing, my point is that in the bassists I've seen who employ a compressor in a live rig they tend to do exactly what you suggest they don't, i.e. smash it flat with a very low threshold, tons of ratio and as much gain as the system will allow. Every note at exactly the same volume regardless of the input energy on the string.

Guitarists do this all the time, although in my experience a guitarist will also know when to turn it off.

Using a compressor the way you describe requires an understanding of the mechanics of the system, and some experience in using a compressor to enhance your sound, not merely bolster your level.

Of course it's entirely possible to employ a compressor sensitively to support an instrument in an ensemble, it's done all the time, my point is that most players will stack one on the live rig and let it do the job that their ears and fingers should do, hence "lazy".

Lots of players owe their sound to the compression effect to some degree, whether that is amp or effect compression, I wasn't suggesting every bass player who uses one is lazy.

[BassMunkee]

I use fairly heavy compression all the time, love it.

[stevefletch59]

I've heard good things about the EBS Multi-Comp for live work, anybody had any experience of those ?

[51m0n]

[quote name='WinterMute' post='485003' date='May 11 2009, 12:47 PM']Yeah, I guess thats what you get for playing rock and recording rock and metal for a living!

There is a general inability to discern dynamics anyway, due to the over use of compressors in mixing, my point is that in the bassists I've seen who employ a compressor in a live rig they tend to do exactly what you suggest they don't, i.e. smash it flat with a very low threshold, tons of ratio and as much gain as the system will allow. Every note at exactly the same volume regardless of the input energy on the string.

Guitarists do this all the time, although in my experience a guitarist will also know when to turn it off.

Using a compressor the way you describe requires an understanding of the mechanics of the system, and some experience in using a compressor to enhance your sound, not merely bolster your level.

Of course it's entirely possible to employ a compressor sensitively to support an instrument in an ensemble, it's done all the time, my point is that most players will stack one on the live rig and let it do the job that their ears and fingers should do, hence "lazy".

Lots of players owe their sound to the compression effect to some degree, whether that is amp or effect compression, I wasn't suggesting every bass player who uses one is lazy.[/quote]

I think bassists are their own worst enemy, I was into sound engineering from the minute I picked up a bass. Maybe I'm weird, but the first time I got into a local studio to record something (all be it in retrospect something utterly cr@p ) I was completely entranced by the desk. Went on to do several private courses on the subject and some higher education stuff too. Not to mention sound engineer for all sorts of people.

In all the time since the first time I went into a studio I've only met about 6 people who could listen to a bass, and set a compressor up for it to make it do specific things to that sound without just stabbing in the dark. None of them were bassists predominantly.

Guitarists are no better (often worse) with understanding compression.

Compression isnt easy to 'get'. But a few hours of fiddling with several examples and a good understanding of the theory, and anyone can learn enough to set a good comp up for gain riding versus punch verses squashing etc.

Most bassists use nasty comp pedals that have most of the controls preset to 'suitable' settings. These settings are usually pretty shabby, mainly cos they are average settings for average bass situations. They rarely have decent monitoring lights to tell you how much gain reduction you are getting, so as far as most bassists are concerned the comp isnt doing anything unless they can hear it doing stuff to the sound. Which usually means they have got the comp button dimed, which will be a combination of lowering the threshold and upping the ratio and makeup gain to staggering levels.

Sure you can hear it happening now, it just happens to sound cr@p, chokes your tone (so more eq please) and kill your dynamics to a very noticeable amount. To me, thats not using a compressor, thats getting used by compressor manufacturer's marketing t("our product will make you sound great like Joe Bingbaldy the great bassist for WeSuck") and not bothering to RTFM or learn how to use the tool.

Don't get me started on overuse in mixing - I thought I was as bad as the next for that, until I heard a recent mix from a friends studio in which everything was so unbelievably squashed I couldn't tell where anything ended and anything else started. It was an amazing sound, but not nice IMO. I like to get the bass and drums sat together, and maybe a rhythm guitar or two with a couple of group comps, bass normally with the drums. But nothing too over the top, just a tad of 'glue'. Same for BVs, and Lead vox (seperate comps though). Limiting in tracking is important (esp on drums and bass) but I try and mix without a limiter anywhere - then master afterwards. I know people who just ram everything into the red on ProTools with the safe button engaged and say 'Ta-daaaa loudest best-est mix ever' - sounds like cr@p though!

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='stevefletch59' post='485027' date='May 11 2009, 01:06 PM']I've heard good things about the EBS Multi-Comp for live work, anybody had any experience of those ?[/quote]


yep - wouldn't play live without it.

[WinterMute]

[quote name='51m0n' post='485044' date='May 11 2009, 01:35 PM']Don't get me started on overuse in mixing - I thought I was as bad as the next for that, until I heard a recent mix from a friends studio in which everything was so unbelievably squashed I couldn't tell where anything ended and anything else started. It was an amazing sound, but not nice IMO. I like to get the bass and drums sat together, and maybe a rhythm guitar or two with a couple of group comps, bass normally with the drums. But nothing too over the top, just a tad of 'glue'. Same for BVs, and Lead vox (seperate comps though). Limiting in tracking is important (esp on drums and bass) but I try and mix without a limiter anywhere - then master afterwards. I know people who just ram everything into the red on ProTools with the safe button engaged and say 'Ta-daaaa loudest best-est mix ever' - sounds like cr@p though![/quote]

rofl

No, don't get me started on over compression....!

I've been mixing and recording in protools at -14db for several years, certainly since I started habitually using 88.2Khz 24 bit. My mastering engineer is Sean McGee at Abbey Road, he's always commenting on how much better for him it is to have mixes that aren't crushing the transients in the digital buss and already compressed to buggery. The masters I get from him are quite as loud as anything short of some "maxed to 11" pos, but they have space and depth and movement, qualities all but forgotten by modern production.

Edited May 11, 2009 by WinterMute

[51m0n]

[quote name='WinterMute' post='485103' date='May 11 2009, 02:48 PM']rofl

No, don't get me started on over compression....!

I've been mixing and recording in protools at -14db for several years, certainly since I started habitually using 88.2Khz 24 bit. My mastering engineer is Sean McGee at Abbey Road, he's always commenting on how much better for him it is to have mixes that aren't crushing the transients in the digital buss and already compressed to buggery. The masters I get from him are quite as loud as anything short of some "maxed to 11" pos, but they have space and depth and movement, qualities all but forgotten by modern production.[/quote]

You have no idea how much better that makes me feel mate.

Any time you want to shoot the breeze about this stuff and you are in Brighton gimme a call (PM whatever). A beer will be coming your way just cos you are fully in the industry and actively ignoring the louder is better hype

[ashevans09]

Quick question though, say you had a rack compressor, where would this go in a live set up?

Bass --> Compressor --> Preamp/poweramp--> Cab

or

Bass --> Preamp --> Compressor --> Poweramp --> Cab

?

[Stewart]

[quote name='ashevans09' post='486193' date='May 12 2009, 05:52 PM']Quick question though, say you had a rack compressor, where would this go in a live set up?

Bass --> Compressor --> Preamp/poweramp--> Cab

or

Bass --> Preamp --> Compressor --> Poweramp --> Cab

?

[/quote]

The second option almost invariably

Primarily because rack compressors are generally built to operate with signals around 0db (somewhere approaching a volt) - more than most basses put out, and also because they won't (necessarily) be a good input stage for use with passive basses.
Most amps these days have an FX loop for the purpose, others have preamp out and power amp in - either should be fine.

[ashevans09]

[quote name='Stewart' post='486210' date='May 12 2009, 06:05 PM']The second option almost invariably

Primarily because rack compressors are generally built to operate with signals around 0db (somewhere approaching a volt) - more than most basses put out, and also because they won't (necessarily) be a good input stage for use with passive basses.
Most amps these days have an FX loop for the purpose, others have preamp out and power amp in - either should be fine.[/quote]

Coolies, thank you!

[Kongo]

[quote name='YouMa' post='484403' date='May 10 2009, 05:25 PM']Am i cheating by relying on compression i dont use it that often but have started messing with it a lot lately? Does anyone else have any views on this.Also did Jamerson and other early pioneers rely on any effects or outboard stuff apart from there amps and fingers,surely they must have just wanted the sound to be good and easy to play in order to just get the job done when they performed as paid artists,so i would imagine they would have grabbed anything that was about,i know fuzz and stuff was about early on but was there any bass pedals that affected the dynamics of the sound around at this time.[/quote]

I used to think this...ALOT! Until I said this to myself...I've been a changed musician these past few months...Listen to my words:

[i][b]"You are an Electric musician...and Electric bassists...Even using an amp is cheating, you'll never get that sound accoustic.
Plugging into an amp makes your dynamic range ALOT bigger but it's not natural...So, a Compressor will help bring things down.
As your electric, not accoustic, and take into fact that using an amp is cheating...A compressor is just an extention!"[/i][/b]

For YEEEEEEEEEEAAAARRRS I had not used a compressor for fear of cheating but then I thought, it's my life and my instrument...why not?
And BOOM! The penny dropped...Now my bass sounds like it does on my lap through my amp.
All the notes sound like they should, behave how they should and by "Cheating" it sounds more natural.

So try it. Screw cheating how can you cheat? Adding EQ is also surely cheating.
A compressor is just another "section" in the signal chain if you like.

Hell this is all IMO and I'm sure many here will say against it but MAN it changed my playing and now I feel like I'm starting all over again because my notes sound so natural and pure...It's like my bass is as it should be.

So...Compressor = (if done well) a bass guitar unamplified, amplified.

[quote name='51m0n' post='485044' date='May 11 2009, 01:35 PM']Most bassists use nasty comp pedals that have most of the controls preset to 'suitable' settings. These settings are usually pretty shabby, mainly cos they are average settings for average bass situations. They rarely have decent monitoring lights to tell you how much gain reduction you are getting, so as far as most bassists are concerned the comp isnt doing anything unless they can hear it doing stuff to the sound. Which usually means they have got the comp button dimed, which will be a combination of lowering the threshold and upping the ratio and makeup gain to staggering levels.

Sure you can hear it happening now, it just happens to sound cr@p, chokes your tone (so more eq please) and kill your dynamics to a very noticeable amount. To me, thats not using a compressor, thats getting used by compressor manufacturer's marketing t("our product will make you sound great like Joe Bingbaldy the great bassist for WeSuck") and not bothering to RTFM or learn how to use the tool.[/quote]

+10 on that!!!
I HATE pedal comps and would never use anything that doesn't have an LED meter.
Plus pedals pump too much for me as well...and do not offer the kind of comp I like.

I'm still messsing with mine all the time but it's awesome how clean it can make your bass play and thus, sound.
I first got into compressors years ago before recently using one on bass. I used to use one for drums to get that "Click" sound of the bass drum.
Do that to a drummer who uses double kick and watch him smile as he hears him bass drum back to himself, not so saggy sounding as it was before hand.

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='484413' date='May 10 2009, 05:35 PM']It's an old argument, one where effects pedals are called talent boosters. Well let's see you get a nice chorused sound with a touch of delay from your fingers, is what I used to say.

Anyway compression rules! Nice big phat bass mmmm... [/quote]

Quote copied! I love that so I'm gonna use it wherever I can...I don't think there's an answere to it.
Again this is just old complains coming back.
Once upon a time bassists said that the "Electric bass can never sound anything like a bass...More just like a guitar"...how wrong and naive they were.
Effects, taking this into mind, are generally new too so give a few decades down the line and watch this rant vanish.
Shall we have this thread frozen in time? LOL!

Edited May 12, 2009 by Kongo

[cheddatom]

I think a compressor shows up your mistakes just as much as it helps if you have poor dynamic control. Swings and raaaaandaaabaaats innit.

[51m0n]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='486673' date='May 13 2009, 09:58 AM']I think a compressor shows up your mistakes just as much as it helps if you have poor dynamic control. Swings and raaaaandaaabaaats innit.[/quote]

Absolutely!

Any string noise, any fret clank, all of it gets more obvious

[Bilbo]

As a card-carrying jazz nazi, I am supposed to be an 'acooustic is best' fanatic but I have always thought:

Electric bass strings - wires and electricity (pick-ups) - wires and electricity(amp) - wires and electricity (desk) - wires and electricity (amp) - wires and electricity (speakers)

vs

Acoustic bass strings - wires and electricity (microphone) - wires and electricity - wires and electricity (desk) - wires and electricity (amp) - wires and electricity (speakers)

So, on that basis, if the chain goes Electric bass strings - wires and electricity (pick-ups) - wires and electricity (compressor) -wires and electricity(amp) - wires and electricity (desk) - wires and electricity (speakers), how is that cheating?

Whatever you need to get the sound you want is entirely defensible. It's the music that matters not the tools you use to get to it.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='486902' date='May 13 2009, 01:30 PM']As a card-carrying jazz nazi, I am supposed to be an 'acooustic is best' fanatic but I have always thought:

Electric bass strings - wires and electricity (pick-ups) - wires and electricity(amp) - wires and electricity (desk) - wires and electricity (amp) - wires and electricity (speakers)

vs

Acoustic bass strings - wires and electricity (microphone) - wires and electricity - wires and electricity (desk) - wires and electricity (amp) - wires and electricity (speakers)

So, on that basis, if the chain goes Electric bass strings - wires and electricity (pick-ups) - wires and electricity (compressor) -wires and electricity(amp) - wires and electricity (desk) - wires and electricity (speakers), how is that cheating?

Whatever you need to get the sound you want is entirely defensible. It's the music that matters not the tools you use to get to it.[/quote]

+1 Nice one!

And from a jazz Nazi too......

[Oscar South]

As far as the 'kills your dynamics' argument goes, I don't agree with it. As someone said earlier theres a lot more to it than just volume.. timbre, tone, attack, decay, release etc. are all much more important. Without compression manipulating a lot of these things either causes you to drop out of the mix or become ear piercingly loud and abrasive.

If used right compression gives you a lot more new option dynamically than it takes away.


As far as what I use: If I'm using my rig I use the built in compresser on the head (Hartke HA3500), if I'm just plugging in I use an Aphex Punch Factory.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Oscar South

[cheddatom]

What's a "jazz nazi"? He loves the uniforms AND jews?

[51m0n]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='486980' date='May 13 2009, 03:25 PM']What's a "jazz nazi"? He loves the uniforms AND jews?[/quote]

A man who goosesteps with schwingggg