Need some free bass lessons!

[AM1]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='485681' date='May 12 2009, 10:16 AM']Being a car enthusiast I tend to remember things like this:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=34763&st=20&p=360545&#entry360545"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry360545[/url]

You can understand my confusion.

Alex[/quote]

Claber - you leap into so many threads/posts of mine, to take a personal pop at me.

Clearly life circumstances/choices never change!

You're another one of the assumption brigade, you do it so well.

Pity you can't invest your energies where they really matter.

You never add anything of any value.

You are boring.

Earth is full, go home.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='AM1' post='485694' date='May 12 2009, 10:28 AM']Claber - you leap into so many threads/posts of mine, to take a personal pop at me.

Clearly life circumstances/choices never change!

You're another one of the assumption brigade, you do it so well.

Pity you can't invest your energies where they really matter.

You never add anything of any value.

You are boring.

Earth is full, go home.[/quote]Claber.

[51m0n]

Only ever seen the MM vid on VHS unfortunately. At work now - when I get a minute I'll dig it out if I can find it and give you the title.

Sounds like a lot of your issues are to do with not using left and right hand together to damp strings.

Do you play 4 or 5 (4 is waaaay easier to sort this out on IMO)?

Left hand fingers should be gently curved and lying on the strings above (ie if you fret a note on the D string then your LH index finger can mute the G).

Also I find that the tip of my LH index finger, even when fretting a note, can often just touch the string above and help damp it (so in the above scenario, my LH index finger frets a note on the D, damps the G, and helps damp the A).

In the mean time my RH thumb is resting on the A to pluck the D, it is positioned such that the back of the thumb is resting agains the E (often firmly) - completely deadening that string too.

Thus all strings are dampened.

If you fret a note with your middle finger then your idenx can lie flat behind it dampening even more effectively.

Take this to its logical extreme playing slow scales in one position across all strings using all your spare fingers as much as possible on both hands to dampen all the open strings as much as you can.

Getting this all coordinated at speed takes A VERY LONG TIME

The results are very clean though.

Slapping cleanly relies on LH dampening even more!!!

[AM1]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='485685' date='May 12 2009, 10:19 AM']I know, I've got the morning off, so I really should be playing my bass, or working on the arrangement of the song we were doing at rehearsals last night instaed of troll baiting.[/quote]

I am not a troll.

I have made a perfectly legitimate, genuine post, asking for advice and guidance.

If you have the morning off, go and do something constructive, instead of wasting your life away here.

I am waiting for software to download and using the time in between to read bass stuff.

If you have something constructive to offer me, I'm all ears.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='AM1' post='485694' date='May 12 2009, 10:28 AM']Claber - you leap into so many threads/posts of mine, to take a personal pop at me.[/quote]

Interesting that you should think that - I post in threads where I have something to say, unfortunately you often seem to consider a dissenting view to be a personal attack. Curious...

[quote name='AM1' post='485694' date='May 12 2009, 10:28 AM']Clearly life circumstances/choices never change!

You're another one of the assumption brigade, you do it so well.[/quote]

Very hard to be anything else when so little information is provided - one has to fill in the gaps to the best of one's abilities.

[quote name='AM1' post='485694' date='May 12 2009, 10:28 AM']Pity you can't invest your energies where they really matter.

You never add anything of any value.

You are boring.

Earth is full, go home.[/quote]

What was that about personal pops?

Alex

[AM1]

[quote name='51m0n' post='485699' date='May 12 2009, 10:34 AM']Only ever seen the MM vid on VHS unfortunately. At work now - when I get a minute I'll dig it out if I can find it and give you the title.[/quote]

Great stuff, cheers!

[quote name='51m0n' post='485699' date='May 12 2009, 10:34 AM']Sounds like a lot of your issues are to do with not using left and right hand together to damp strings.

Do you play 4 or 5 (4 is waaaay easier to sort this out on IMO)?[/quote]

Hi - 4. Have tried a few 5s but rather sort my damping issues properly first.

[quote name='51m0n' post='485699' date='May 12 2009, 10:34 AM']Left hand fingers should be gently curved and lying on the strings above (ie if you fret a note on the D string then your LH index finger can mute the G).

Also I find that the tip of my LH index finger, even when fretting a note, can often just touch the string above and help damp it (so in the above scenario, my LH index finger frets a note on the D, damps the G, and helps damp the A).

In the mean time my RH thumb is resting on the A to pluck the D, it is positioned such that the back of the thumb is resting agains the E (often firmly) - completely deadening that string too.

Thus all strings are dampened.

If you fret a note with your middle finger then your idenx can lie flat behind it dampening even more effectively.

Take this to its logical extreme playing slow scales in one position across all strings using all your spare fingers as much as possible on both hands to dampen all the open strings as much as you can.

Getting this all coordinated at speed takes A VERY LONG TIME [/quote]

Yes, I see exactly what you mean. Great explanation! I hear that resonance sometimes in recordings or when I listen to others play, it muddies the sound a bit. Sounds f*cking terrible when listening to a live band! The problem is, it can be covered up a bit with fast playing in a live situation, or even by finding ways to compensate round it, but would totally destroy the quality in a recording situation.

[quote name='51m0n' post='485699' date='May 12 2009, 10:34 AM']The results are very clean though.

Slapping cleanly relies on LH dampening even more!!![/quote]

My problem is using that floating thumb technique for too long, which is actually quite effective at damping but it's slowing string crossing, isn't great for octaves and is hindering me from being able to switch seamlessly to normal thumb anchored on the pickup style.

Really grateful for your advice.

[AM1]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='485714' date='May 12 2009, 10:43 AM']Interesting that you should think that - I post in threads where I have something to say, unfortunately you often seem to consider a dissenting view to be a personal attack. Curious...[/quote]

Not in the slightest. Just when people like you pile into threads like this, to challenge the poster, not offer a shred of advice.


[quote name='alexclaber' post='485714' date='May 12 2009, 10:43 AM']Very hard to be anything else when so little information is provided - one has to fill in the gaps to the best of one's abilities.[/quote]

No, you didn't fill in any gaps - you leaped in here with a post about a 911 (which by the way, was sold years ago) and issued an outright challenge. If you really wanted to fill in the gaps, you could ask a simple question and expect a simple answer, or write a PM and ask. Instead, you elect to leap into my threads to personally challenge me - try offering something constructive or at least not boring.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='485714' date='May 12 2009, 10:43 AM']What was that about personal pops?

Alex[/quote]

Well, calling you boring is a fair cop, guv'nor.

Edited May 12, 2009 by AM1

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AM1' post='485686' date='May 12 2009, 10:22 AM']OK - I understand. But when I slow down, I hear that ringing..but I just don't know exactly what damping methods to use to kill it. That's the fundamental part of the problem.[/quote]

If you're playing on the lower strings (eg. on the E string), your fretting hand will mute the higher strings and prevent sympathetic resonance.

If you're playing on the higher strings, a floating anchor (or rather a moving anchor) will mute the lower strings.

Adam Nitti's lessons from bass player magazine are all you need to sort out your muting:

[url="http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml"]http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_03.shtml"]http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_03.shtml[/url]

[51m0n]

[quote name='AM1' post='485730' date='May 12 2009, 10:51 AM']My problem is using that floating thumb technique for too long, which is actually quite effective at damping but it's slowing string crossing, isn't great for octaves and is hindering me from being able to switch seamlessly to normal thumb anchored on the pickup style.

Really grateful for your advice.[/quote]

Playing a faster piece you can get away with LH muting a lot of the noise (esp on Octaves for instance - the LH index finger mutes the string in between the two octaves naturally). Playing a fast run up the strings dont forget that you rh plucking fingers mute the string they land on after plucking too. So there is no need or time for floating.

Playing slower and floating can keep up fine. And floating makes sense too as you stay in the optimum position that way. Plus the ringing is way more obvious and needs far greater control then.

Its definitely a mix of all techniques as required for me.

I have always prided myself on my very very clean fingerstyle (its not as fast as it used to be by a long margin, but thats cos I no longer have the time).

I got there by completely analysing and deconstructing my right and left hand technique and concentrating on playing very slowly and completely staccato, working out what part of which hand was not muting when it could and modifying my technique to add that extra muting.

I recommend you do the same. Stop worrying about speed for now.

Play a major scale through all 4 strings slowly, completely staccato though, and figure out what rings. Now figure out what could mute it. What else could be muting? Incorporate it into _your_ technique. Chances are that by doing your own very in depth analysis you will find more opportunities for damping than a teacher will. Look at Gary Willis, totally unique technique because he worked it out for himself, anyone else play like that - not much - does it work? hell yes! Check out early Tribal Tech, he is blisteringly fast and clean as a whistle

Since I've been playing a 5 I've had to start the long process of reworking my technique to cover that blasted ringing extra string!

[AM1]

[quote name='51m0n' post='485756' date='May 12 2009, 11:26 AM']Playing a faster piece you can get away with LH muting a lot of the noise (esp on Octaves for instance - the LH index finger mutes the string in between the two octaves naturally). Playing a fast run up the strings dont forget that you rh plucking fingers mute the string they land on after plucking too. So there is no need or time for floating.[/quote]

Yeah it's floating that is slowing that stuff down. Which is why I am trying to improve my technique with thumb anchored on the pickup. I have found an example of someone that is playing the exact same as me when I describe floating. This is a variant of it but it's not true floating thumb as described by afficionados.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2dxcUIausA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2dxcUIausA[/url]

But then there is another recording using anchored thumb technique. Take a look here.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIGaL8hQySA&feature=PlayList&p=F8563AD79F431524&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIGaL8hQySA...=PL&index=4[/url]

Just out of idle curiousity, apart from damping whilst using floating thumb, what's the real advantage of it over using the anchor thumb technique? Is it just economy of motion?


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIGaL8hQySA&feature=PlayList&p=F8563AD79F431524&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIGaL8hQySA...=PL&index=4[/url]

[quote name='51m0n' post='485756' date='May 12 2009, 11:26 AM']Playing slower and floating can keep up fine. And floating makes sense too as you stay in the optimum position that way. Plus the ringing is way more obvious and needs far greater control then.[/quote]

Yes - it's deciding when to use which technique but more the fact that I don't want to get too ingrained into one technique at this stage as it's going to be really hard to "unlearn" later.

[quote name='51m0n' post='485756' date='May 12 2009, 11:26 AM']Its definitely a mix of all techniques as required for me.

I have always prided myself on my very very clean fingerstyle (its not as fast as it used to be by a long margin, but thats cos I no longer have the time).

I got there by completely analysing and deconstructing my right and left hand technique and concentrating on playing very slowly and completely staccato, working out what part of which hand was not muting when it could and modifying my technique to add that extra muting.

I recommend you do the same. Stop worrying about speed for now.[/quote]

I really respect that you have put the time and work into this particular aspect and that you are prepared to share that hard won experience.

[quote name='51m0n' post='485756' date='May 12 2009, 11:26 AM']Play a major scale through all 4 strings slowly, completely staccato though, and figure out what rings. Now figure out what could mute it. What else could be muting? Incorporate it into _your_ technique. Chances are that by doing your own very in depth analysis you will find more opportunities for damping than a teacher will. Look at Gary Willis, totally unique technique because he worked it out for himself, anyone else play like that - not much - does it work? hell yes! Check out early Tribal Tech, he is blisteringly fast and clean as a whistle.[/quote]

I will. It's hard enough to nail it playing slow but when I look at fast funky stuff, which is where I want to go, that's where it seems almost impossible!

[quote name='51m0n' post='485756' date='May 12 2009, 11:26 AM']Since I've been playing a 5 I've had to start the long process of reworking my technique to cover that blasted ringing extra string![/quote]

It's so easy to compensate on the 5 by using floating thumb, but it's not a proper fix as it really annihilates speed in fast string crossings!!

Edited May 12, 2009 by AM1

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AM1' post='485787' date='May 12 2009, 11:54 AM']Just out of idle curiousity, apart from damping whilst using floating thumb, what's the real advantage of it over using the anchor thumb technique? Is just just economy of motion?[/quote]

Read the article:

[url="http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml"]http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml[/url]

[AM1]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='485794' date='May 12 2009, 12:00 PM']Read the article:

[url="http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml"]http://www.adamnitti.com/bass_player_02.shtml[/url][/quote]

Apologies, I missed your post...reading now.

[alexclaber]

My approach is a hybrid one - the thumb rests on the pickups, B, E, A or even D string depending on what the fingers are playing but it doesn't always shift, totally depends on the line being played. I also use my thumb and ring finger to pluck at times, so the only digit that's never used is the little finger.

Eg. if playing octaves between A and G string I'd rest on the E. But if playing a line that starts on the A string and then travels up to the G I might shift from E to A as required. It's similar to left hand technique conceptually - do you keep your thumb in the same place and pivot the hand around it to reach a note, or do you shift the hand because the subsequent notes all require that shift?

Alex

[AM1]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='485805' date='May 12 2009, 12:12 PM']My approach is a hybrid one - the thumb rests on the pickups, B, E, A or even D string depending on what the fingers are playing but it doesn't always shift, totally depends on the line being played. I also use my thumb and ring finger to pluck at times, so the only digit that's never used is the little finger.

Eg. if playing octaves between A and G string I'd rest on the E. But if playing a line that starts on the A string and then travels up to the G I might shift from E to A as required. It's similar to left hand technique conceptually - do you keep your thumb in the same place and pivot the hand around it to reach a note, or do you shift the hand because the subsequent notes all require that shift?

Alex[/quote]

Playing octaves between A and G string - here's where my problem with floating thumb manifests because I would pluck the A string with my thumb resting on E but then move my whole hand so when I pluck the G string, my thumb would then rest on the D string. What I don't understand is if I would anchor my thumb on the pickup, how do I know which fingers to use then on alternate strings (one string apart and two strings apart) and how to damp the string in between? I have started using my ring finger for damping on the right hand...but have no understanding of whether this is bad or good in the longer term because it's almost in compensation for not damping properly on the left hand.

So to answer your question, I'm shifting my whole hand but not because there are notes in between, purely to try and achieve effective damping. But it's slowing speed down significantly.

Edited May 12, 2009 by AM1

[AM1]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='485805' date='May 12 2009, 12:12 PM']My approach is a hybrid one - the thumb rests on the pickups, B, E, A or even D string depending on what the fingers are playing but it doesn't always shift, totally depends on the line being played. I also use my thumb and ring finger to pluck at times, so the only digit that's never used is the little finger.

Eg. if playing octaves between A and G string I'd rest on the E. But if playing a line that starts on the A string and then travels up to the G I might shift from E to A as required. It's similar to left hand technique conceptually - do you keep your thumb in the same place and pivot the hand around it to reach a note, or do you shift the hand because the subsequent notes all require that shift?

Alex[/quote]

Playing octaves between A and G string - here's where my problem with floating thumb manifests because I would pluck the A string with my thumb resting on E but then move my whole hand so when I pluck the G string, my thumb would then rest on the D string. What I don't understand is if I would anchor my thumb on the pickup, how do I know which fingers to use then on alternate strings (one string apart and two strings apart) and how to damp the string in between? I have started using my ring finger for damping on the right hand...but have no understanding of whether this is bad or good in the longer term because it's almost in compensation for not damping properly on the left hand.

So to answer your question, I'm shifting my whole hand but not because there are notes in between, purely to try and achieve effective damping. But it's slowing speed down significantly.

[51m0n]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='485805' date='May 12 2009, 12:12 PM']My approach is a hybrid one - the thumb rests on the pickups, B, E, A or even D string depending on what the fingers are playing but it doesn't always shift, totally depends on the line being played. I also use my thumb and ring finger to pluck at times, so the only digit that's never used is the little finger.

Eg. if playing octaves between A and G string I'd rest on the E. But if playing a line that starts on the A string and then travels up to the G I might shift from E to A as required. It's similar to left hand technique conceptually - do you keep your thumb in the same place and pivot the hand around it to reach a note, or do you shift the hand because the subsequent notes all require that shift?

Alex[/quote]

Mine is very similar (wrt to how I float) except I use three fingers for plucking RMI, in that direction rather than two, cos I find it increases my ascending speed, and my endurance. I use RI for octaves, and if there is a line with 2 16ths on the lower octave one 8th on the upper or vice versa (very disco) then I can use the M to provide one of the 16ths, making it easy to play such lines very fast. Its no good for I Feel Love though . Also sometimes do the thumb IM thing, or thumb IMR (but not Garrison technique).

Trouble with 3 finger plucking is widely documented, and I would say it requires a significant investment in time to get the dexterity, but its been worth while for me. I am considering attempting to get the Garrison technique down. But I want to concentrate on reading for the forseeable so thats on hold!

[51m0n]

[quote name='AM1' post='485812' date='May 12 2009, 12:19 PM']Playing octaves between A and G string - here's where my problem with floating thumb manifests because I would pluck the A string with my thumb resting on E but then move my whole hand so when I pluck the G string, my thumb would then rest on the D string. What I don't understand is if I would anchor my thumb on the pickup, how do I know which fingers to use then on alternate strings (one string apart and two strings apart) and [b]how to damp the string in between[/b]? I have started using my ring finger for damping on the right hand...but have no understanding of whether this is bad or good in the longer term because it's almost in compensation for not damping properly on the left hand.

So to answer your question, I'm shifting my whole hand but not because there are notes in between, purely to try and achieve effective damping. But it's slowing speed down significantly.[/quote]

Left hand damping as I have described it completely takes care of this. DO NOT underestimate the power of left hand damping!!!!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='51m0n' post='485816' date='May 12 2009, 12:23 PM']Left hand damping as I have described it completely takes care of this. DO NOT underestimate the power of left hand damping!!!![/quote]

Exactly! Try to keep the left hand as relaxed as possible so it mutes the unused strings.

My main reason for shifting thumb on the right hand is to improve the angle at which I'm plucking, reduce right hand tension and thus improve both dynamic range (can dig in harder without buzz when so desired) and speed/endurance.

Alex

[Johngh]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='485591' date='May 12 2009, 08:58 AM'].....and we're off again.

I could say, stop being the Basschat troll but I won't.[/quote]


AM1 has made a legitimate request, its up to each individual if they choose to offer free lessons to AM1 or anybody else on the forum or not. But bit does not give people the right to turn threads into slanging matches and trade personal insults. Can we all please calm down a bit !

[51m0n]

Question:

When you play a scale are your left hand fingers flapping about or do they all stay within a half cm (max) of the strings even when not being used?

Cos if your LH technique is right your LH fingers stay very close to the strings all the time, which is a very natural step from the resting on all the strings.

When you push a string down with your index finger your middle finger can reach and damp the string below (in pitch) along with the ring finger and your pinky can help dampen strings above (in pitch). In fact you can maintain LH dampening of all strings regardless of which finger is playing on which string.

It is worth anchoring your thumb on the top of the pup and working exclusively on LH dampening playing major and minor scales, in thirds, in 6ths etc in one position up and down. It is a real finger stretcher!!!

I am really starting to see this as the bit your are missing!!

[tombboy]

Reading all of this about LH damping and RH doobrie-ing has made me realise how crap I am and that I need to practice more!! Thanks for that Ann-Marie... you patient, fastidious, determined bugger, you!

[AM1]

[quote name='tombboy' post='485846' date='May 12 2009, 12:50 PM']Reading all of this about LH damping and RH doobrie-ing has made me realise how crap I am and that I need to practice more!! Thanks for that Ann-Marie... you patient, fastidious, determined bugger, you! [/quote]

Hehe!

Sometimes I think I am my own worst, perfectionist, enemy!

[AM1]

[quote name='51m0n' post='485832' date='May 12 2009, 12:39 PM']Question:

When you play a scale are your left hand fingers flapping about or do they all stay within a half cm (max) of the strings even when not being used?

Cos if your LH technique is right your LH fingers stay very close to the strings all the time, which is a very natural step from the resting on all the strings.

When you push a string down with your index finger your middle finger can reach and damp the string below (in pitch) along with the ring finger and your pinky can help dampen strings above (in pitch). In fact you can maintain LH dampening of all strings regardless of which finger is playing on which string.

It is worth anchoring your thumb on the top of the pup and working exclusively on LH dampening playing major and minor scales, in thirds, in 6ths etc in one position up and down. It is a real finger stretcher!!!

I am really starting to see this as the bit your are missing!![/quote]

I think you are right!!!!

I just watched a video of my playing and there is no way my fingers are all half a cm away from the strings. I do find it quite difficult to keep the other fingers close to the fretboard. So, quite clearly, because I am using that floating thumb technique, I have got away with not cultivating proper left hand technique and this is what is hindering me when I try and do anchor on the pickup playing.

Actually, this explains a lot - I am seriously amazed that you could work this out from a forum!

I am so, so, SOOO not looking forward to the practice session that awaits me tonight!!

[51m0n]

Its will be tortuorous I'm afraid.

I used to practice standing in a doorway with my left hand a cm away from the wall where the door would be if it closed. That way I couldnt keep opening my left hand all the time.

Eventually you realise how much energy you are wasting by opening you hand except for the fretting finger.

Then you realise how this is what has slowed you down all this time.

Then you realise that what you need to do is relax you left hand completely

Then you realise that this has all been caused by squeezing your left hand too tightly to fret a note.


Task:

With your index finger fret a note as normal. Then, play crotchets, and slowly relax you finger until the string buzzes, then apply more pressure as gradually as you can until it stops buzzing.

Is this significantly less pressure than you normally use to fret a note?

Repeat with each LH finger.

How much energy have you been wasting?

Now relax you LH over the strings like a mute. Place you hand such that you have the tip of you index finger in place to fret a note on the A string, you middle and ring will probably reach the E string. Apply pressure with the index fuinger until the note sounds.

Experiment with all other fingers on all strings.

You are trying to recondition yourself to use as littel motion and strength as possible with your LH, whilst muting all strings.

Now promise me something, [b]every time[/b] you pick up your bass to play in the next year, start with this simple exercise.

Really.

Then go on to the staccato exercise I mentioned before.

Your playing will be 100 times cleaner in 6 weeks.

[51m0n]

damn I'm pants at typing fast - soz