Mixing IEM's - share your knowledge/experience here please

[JPJ]

So I've decided that I am going to continue my experimentation with IEM's in 2024. As I've said on here many times before, I play bass in two bands (one a female fronted Americana/country band, the second a southern rock band) and I mix the live sound 'from the stage' using a Behringer XR18. The singer in the female fronted Americana band already uses my old T-Bone IEM transmitter/receiver set with the ubiquitous KZ ZS10 Pro's and loves the setup. I am experimenting with the X-Vive U4 and the same KZ ZS10's. Both the singer and the drummer in the southern rock band are talking about IEM's (the fiddle player already uses a hardwired Behringer P2/KZ ZS10 combo). It's only a matter of time before this band goes full IEM followed by 'silent stage' minus acoustic drums. 

I've had limited success so far with my own IEM mix due to trying to do this 'on the fly' and also with the poor isolation I can achieve with the KZ's despite trying several different tips including foam and rubber. To speed up the process, I thought I'd ask the Basschat community for their tips/experiences of mixing IEM feeds to save me a lot of faffing about. 

[warwickhunt]

Can't help with your mixing but your drummer is one step closer to IEM after borrowing my Behringer P2 when he depped for us the other day!    

[JPJ]

3 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

Can't help with your mixing but your drummer is one step closer to IEM after borrowing my Behringer P2 when he depped for us the other day!    

Excellent work - well done!

[Pirellithecat]

As a complete amateur at all this, I'm in a similar position, i.e. trying to use IEM's in a (rock) band whilst doing the sound "on the hoof" whilst attempting to get a decent mix for my IEMs.
2 things I'd offer which have improved things for me are;
1)  Switching my Mee MX Pro IEM's to Shure SE 215's.     MUCH better sound isolation, allowing me to actually reduce the volume rather than compete with the stage noise.
2) Using an old Mic as an Ambient Mic - placed somewhere on stage to capture the "live" sound - this really helps with hearing what's going on and , in some situations might be all that's needed apart from a feed from the bass.

I'm still a long way from getting to a satisfactory solution but am persevering!!

Good luck!

[vsmith1]

I made my own custom fit IEMs. The isolation is considerably better than standard in-ear buds. I made them with the Monoprice 'phones, with the foam/gel part removed and custom fitted into the ear moulds. The Monoprice units were bass-heavy, and that's fine for me. I actually have a spare set of the Monoprice units, just in case.

Sometimes, I just put in the ear moulds, it helps reduce the sound levels. 

In terms of the IEM audio mix, I find that the bass feed has to be loud enough without it causing the drivers in the buds to distort, so some time spent in getting the mix from the desk into my feed, more by reducing other inputs rather than turning stuff up. I also have to factor in my hearing and the effects of my age on my ear's frequency responses. So it is good not to share my AUX mix with anyone else.

[jimmyb625]

First things first, you already have a job with both bands, which is playing bass. Don't forget that and make sure the band doesn't forget it either. If you're already mixing foh from the stage, you're adding another thing to think about and be responsible for (especially when someone asks for "more me" halfway through a song).

If you've got people willing to use the P2's you're onto a winner there as it simplifies things (and keeps the cost down) when compared to using wireless units. 

 

Schedule at least one "technical" rehearsal, so you can get everyone to try them and set a basic mix they all are happy with (bearing in mind they'll inevitably want "more me" when you get to a gig). It will also give you a chance to get familiar with whatever cabling is needed. If you can, it's also a good idea to mark the cables you use, colour coded if you're that way inclined, which will help to reduce your setup time and will also make it easier for the other band members to help you - "the yellow cable goes in the yellow socket" etc.

 

I'd be a bit hesitant to use the xvives, although I know people here really like them. My reluctance comes from them being digital units and you're already using a digital desk, so latency could possibly come into play, although people perceive latency differently, so it may be fine. I've also been really spoiled with stereo units, so I'd rather keep that if possible.

 

When it comes to setting the mix, that's all going to be down to preference, but a good starting point is to find out what people actually "need" to hear, as opposed to what they think they should hear. For example, I have very little "need" to hear the keys player most of the time, apart from the occassional intro to a song, so that's always very low in my mix. Our (acoustic) drummer still uses a monitor and probably won't change, so given he has my bass in the feed, I don't bother putting it in anyone else's IEM mix, except my own. 

 

Choice of IEM is going to be a personal one and possibly one of the hardest to make. We're all using the ZS10's now (the singer/guitarist had a set of Shure 215's which were starting to fail) but I'm not yet sure what a logical upgrade would be, or even if's going to be worth it.

Edited January 3 by jimmyb625

[Phil Starr]

I sympathise with you if you are running FOH sound, playing bass and trying to keep your band happy with their IEM mixes. Your own monitors always come last and I've usually just got mine in when someone has logged themselves out of the mixer, logged in to someone else's mix or has a flat battery in their headphone amp. I have to unplug to listen to their problems and then no time to do any last minute tweaks to my own mix.

 

You have to sort isolation. If you get that right then in theory once you have a good mix it will be the same everywhere. It's external sound leaking in that messes up your mix. I use triple flange tips with my ZS10's pushed right into the ear canals. It is a bit intrusive at first but the isolation is great and you get used to them. 

[Pea Turgh]

Isn’t there an app the other members of the band can download to their phones to control their own monitor feeds?  That would be one thing less for you to do!

[warwickhunt]

10 minutes ago, Pea Turgh said:

Isn’t there an app the other members of the band can download to their phones to control their own monitor feeds?  That would be one thing less for you to do!

 

We do this but you have to have trust that someone is going to log into their Aux feed and adjust levels... as opposed to someone else's feed or worst still, the FOH.  It has happened!   

[acidbass]

30 minutes ago, Pea Turgh said:

Isn’t there an app the other members of the band can download to their phones to control their own monitor feeds?  That would be one thing less for you to do!

Yeah this is what we do in my rock band.  Allen and Heath desks have specific monitor-only apps (Qu You, SQ You) which allow each member to access only their mix.  Very intuitive and saves a lot of faff.

[Pea Turgh]

Damn!  Didn’t know that was a possibility 😂.

 

I’ve yet to try my starter IEM set up (KZ ZS10s & P2).  I know one of our two soundies has an XR-something.  The other one has a fancypants Soundcraft (I think).  No flipping gigs booked in til July though 🤦🏻‍♂️

[dave_bass5]

Since getting our XR18 I make sure everyone that needs a mix does their own, either using MX Bus or Monitor mode in Mixing station. I have my iPad controlling mine and FOH, but I can keep an eye on everyone's mix, but of Cours ei don't touch them as I have no idea what the mix is like. 

I still get calls of 'I can't hear the reverb' or 'I need more guitar', but I shrug it off and tell them that's their job, not mine. My mix is of course stereo, and I have a stereo digital recorder feeding the ambient in. I tried one of the mono mixes once, didn't like it and I'm surprised no one in the band has mentioned it. maybe I'm just used to stereo. 

As much as I really like Mixing Station, MX Bus seems much better for the monitors. it's a lot cleaner and works better on phone screens. 

 

[Pirellithecat]

Had my most successful outing with IEM's on Saturday and am getting a better mix from all the instruments/vocals.   
But a few observations/questions if I may .... 
Observations
    1) The importance of good isolation can't be underestimated.
    2) As I get the hang of mixing the IEM's better it's noticeable that I'm probably using too much volume - need to turn IEM Aux down.
Q's
Bass
How do you get a decent Bass sound? 
On the mixer  have Bass, Semi Parametric Mids, Treble, and HPF, but I just can't seem to craft the sound - twangy top end and a mushy bottom end.  Probably just need practice but any help appreciated.
The IEM bass tone bears little resemblance to the on-stage bass sound.  Any thoughts on Pre vs Post EQ from the DI out of my Ashdown ABM600?  

Guitar(s)
This is a direct DI from the valve amp (some kind of cab sim involved I think).
Seems to accentuate the guitar "dirty" channel which merges with my Bass IEM feed to produce a combined sound that I hate - keep checking to see if something wrong on the amp!!
Worth using a Mic on his cab or is there any other way round this? 

I was getting a bit pessimistic about ever getting this sorted but I'm more optimistic following last weekend's outing!! 

Edited March 4 by Pirellithecat
Awful English!

[Bassmonkey2510]

I had a similar issue with a DI from a guitar amp, I put a mic on it and it sounded so much better. The cab plays a big part in the guitars tone. Saying that, I wish he had a modeller like an HX stomp. I mixed sound for a band last week and the guitarist had one, he sounded awesome! 
 

I found the KZs to be too trebley, so I tried rolling some top off on the aux channel.

 

i also found that with a P2, reducing the output of the aux and turning the P2 up helped with reducing hiss. 
 

I think the bass will always be a bit pants in IEMs, so I have compensated but still having my amp on on stage. 
 

I don’t really like IEMs, but regardless of this, it is a HUGE improvement on playing with monitors, especially in smaller venues where wedges fill the room with a loud drummer. 
 

[jimmyb625]

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

Had my most successful outing with IEM's on Saturday and am getting a better mix from all the instruments/vocals.   
But a few observations/questions if I may .... 
Observations
    1) The importance of good isolation can't be underestimated.
    2) As I get the hang of mixing the IEM's better it's noticeable that I'm probably using too much volume - need to turn IEM Aux down.
Q's
Bass
How do you get a decent Bass sound? 
On the mixer  have Bass, Semi Parametric Mids, Treble, and HPF, but I just can't seem to craft the sound - twangy top end and a mushy bottom end.  Probably just need practice but any help appreciated.
The IEM bass tone bears little resemblance to the on-stage bass sound.  Any thoughts on Pre vs Post EQ from the DI out of my Ashdown ABM600?  

Guitar(s)
This is a direct DI from the valve amp (some kind of cab sim involved I think).
Seems to accentuate the guitar "dirty" channel which merges with my Bass IEM feed to produce a combined sound that I hate - keep checking to see if something wrong on the amp!!
Worth using a Mic on his cab or is there any other way round this? 

I was getting a bit pessimistic about ever getting this sorted but I'm more optimistic following last weekend's outing!! 

Are you using your own desk and is it handling both FoH and monitors? 

Sometimes, what eq sounds good out front, isn't as great through IEM's.

 

For both the guitar and bass, you need to find "space" for them in the mix, which will take a bit of trial and error. If you've got your own desk, which you're just using for monitoring, you're on a winner, although you should definitely set some time aside with the band to get a mix you're happy with. 

 

As @Bassmonkey2510 says, a mic on the guitar cab will be better, but a modeller is bestest! Getting the guitarist to make that switch though, may not be the easiest.

 

For bass, I'm moving more and more over to just my pedals and the last two gigs, I didn't bother to use my amp at all. I've set it now so that the DI sound is one I like, which means I can feed it pre-eq into the aux mix for my IEM's. That way, if the FoH needs channel eq, it doesn't affect what I hear.

 

The major downside for IEM's in my opinion, is the desk and engineer that you might get at some gigs. If you've got a good engineer, who's used to using them, it's great, but if not, it can make it quite difficult. Similarly, if the desk doesn't have enough spare aux sends, it gets tricky, as you need to start sharing mixes and the like.

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Q's
Bass
How do you get a decent Bass sound? 
On the mixer  have Bass, Semi Parametric Mids, Treble, and HPF, but I just can't seem to craft the sound - twangy top end and a mushy bottom end.  Probably just need practice but any help appreciated.
The IEM bass tone bears little resemblance to the on-stage bass sound.  Any thoughts on Pre vs Post EQ from the DI out of my Ashdown ABM600?  

 

For Bass in IEM’s ive started to insert a Guitar amp sim (built in to my XR18). It seems to give it a bit more ‘life’ and less DI’ed (which it is). Not a true Bass rig sim, but seems to work better than just EQ.

[Pirellithecat]

Wow - great!  The guitarist uses a Fractal board so I guess I can take a feed from that (?)  That would also solve the perpetual Pain In the "proverbial" of him turning his amp up during the set!!  That would be a real "win" (if I'm right!!). 
The Mixer is an analogue 16 channel desk - sits by me, so I'm the roady, the bass player and the "sound guy" .  All monitor/FOH on mixer , FOH done by me touring the audience now and then.   So ..... If I had something like a SansAmp VT/Para driver or similar I could just DI out from there and use the amp for the stage/FOH sound without having to adjust the IEM mix at each gig.   I like it!!

Any other "better" DI out ideas for the Pedal board?  (I would like to use swap basses for some songs so something like the VT Deluxe appeals - but it might be a bit dated these days .... or?)

And it's a relief it's not just me finding the IEM bass a little tricky. 
Many thanks

[Phil Starr]

On 04/03/2024 at 18:36, Bassmonkey2510 said:

found the KZs to be too trebley, so I tried rolling some top off on the aux channel.

 

It's worth knowing that the KZ10's have a 10db midrange cut built into their sound so you probably need to be fairly enthusiastic with the eq to get the same sound as the audience are hearing

 

From their website

[Pirellithecat]

On 04/03/2024 at 19:55, dave_bass5 said:

For Bass in IEM’s ive started to insert a Guitar amp sim (built in to my XR18). It seems to give it a bit more ‘life’ and less DI’ed (which it is). Not a true Bass rig sim, but seems to work better than just EQ.

I spoke too soon!  The Fractal doesn't really do DI out - you can get a feed but it's preEQ/FX etc so sounds pretty naff.  I suspect I could insert a DI box into the FX return lead from the Fractal to the amp and run a DI out from there, but it's probably too difficult to get agreement to do this.   On the bass side of things, is it possible to actually insert something like a BDI21 into the Feed from the DI out from the Bass Amp to the mixer?  Probably over egging this but I just can't get an acceptable sound for IEM's using just the Mixer tone controls. 
Basically I want independent tone/volume control - one for the stage sound and one for the Mixer/IEM feed.  

 

[jimmyb625]

35 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

I spoke too soon!  The Fractal doesn't really do DI out - you can get a feed but it's preEQ/FX etc so sounds pretty naff.  I suspect I could insert a DI box into the FX return lead from the Fractal to the amp and run a DI out from there, but it's probably too difficult to get agreement to do this.   On the bass side of things, is it possible to actually insert something like a BDI21 into the Feed from the DI out from the Bass Amp to the mixer?  Probably over egging this but I just can't get an acceptable sound for IEM's using just the Mixer tone controls. 
Basically I want independent tone/volume control - one for the stage sound and one for the Mixer/IEM feed.  

 

Have you got a spare input channel on the desk? If you have, dependent on the type of desk you have, you can take a direct out from one channel into a separate channel. You can eq that duplicate channel and set it to only got to the IEM mix (basically the channel fader would be down and the aux send would be pre-fade).

 

Edit to add: What model of Fractal are they using? One of their biggest selling points is the ability to provide amp sim's. It might be that (if they're using it in front of an amplifier) they aren't using the modelling functions. From what I can see, both of the main outputs are capable of having the amp modelling. I will caveat this by saying I haven't personally used this particular model, but I have seen similar devices.

 

Edited March 7 by jimmyb625

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks .   The Fractal is an FX8.    Basically I think the only way to take a feed which captures the pre-amp and effects is to split the FX return.   But I'm just a bass player, so don't understand the essential "Foo" of amping guitars for magicness!!   I quite like the mixer solution though .... is this a better route than just inserting an e.g. BDI21 or equivalent into the feed from the Bass?  Alternatively I guess I could use it as an "Insert"????? 
Sorry if this post just demonstrates my lack of knowledge on all this .... but better to ask and get shot down as it's all part of the learning curve. 🙄

[dave_bass5]

Not familiar with the gear you are talking about, but I’d say you might be better off with something like a Zoom B4 over the BDI21. This has full amp and cab sims. You could definitely fine tune it to your liking. 

[Pirellithecat]

Used a passive DI box to take signal from Insert on the mixer bass guitar channel to a free channel so I now have a FOH bass feed and an IEM bass feed

I can now adjust volume and tone for on stage, In Ear and FOH independently🤞

We'll see how it goes at tomorrow's gig!!  Thanks all!

 

[gazhowe]

7 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Used a passive DI box to take signal from Insert on the mixer bass guitar channel to a free channel so I now have a FOH bass feed and an IEM bass feed

I can now adjust volume and tone for on stage, In Ear and FOH independently🤞

We'll see how it goes at tomorrow's gig!!  Thanks all!

 

Hope it works out well. Let everyone know how it works out please.

[Pirellithecat]

First update.    Just rewired things so that it's simpler.   Half insert ordinary jack into Insert on 1 channel and feed this into adjacent channel input.   Seems to work just as well and reduces complexity/no of wires.

So now it's Bass - Pedal Board - Amp - DI (preEQ) into mixer Channnel 1 (> FOH), Insert out to Channel 2 for IEM's. So dead simple.  We'll see later!!