New bass head vs preamp

[MikeStockport]

Currently I’m using a Trace Elliot Elf 200W bass head and the matching speakers, a 1x10 and a 2x8. I find that when I play my Munson custom fretless, I have to turn up both the input gain and the master volume to nearly maximum to be loud enough in a gig. I was wondering which would be better: buying a preamp, or getting a more powerful amp head, such as a Markbass 300W?

[spyder]

The difference in loudness between 200w and 300w is minimal. Go for a 500w plus head. 

[Downunderwonder]

Not all preamps will work with all basses. Looks like you may have discovered that already. If your other basses do fine then you could well do with an extra preamp for the fretless and carry on elfing. 

[jrixn1]

The gain control is set per instrument.  Where exactly to set the level is subjective but generally I'd have it so that the LED is nearly always green, but turning red briefly on the loudest notes (e.g. hitting the open E string as hard as you ever will).

 

Where is that position for your Munson fretless bass?

 

If it's near the max, or you can't get the LED to ever turn red, then your bass has low output.  Yes you could get a preamp; another possibility is that there is an issue with the instrument e.g. low pickup height or faulty pickup.

 

Once the gain is set correctly, then use the volume knob to set the output level.  If that is not loud enough to gig with, then you need a more powerful amp.  Bear in mind that if you get a more powerful amp, you might then need different speaker cabs.

[BassAdder60]

I use my TE Elf into a SVT 212AV 4 ohm cab and it’s loud ! 
 

Better cabs would help 

[bremen]

15 hours ago, spyder said:

The difference in loudness between 200w and 300w is minimal. Go for a 500w plus head. 

True enough, and that's assuming the 200, 300 and 500 are measured the same way. What one manufacturer calls 300 another might call 500, and out of two amps rated 500rms at a given distortion level, one might be able to sustain that for 100mS and the other for hours. 

 

Not sure where I'm going with this apart from "don't believe the hype", "get an SVT" and "1000 genuine watts are only twice as loud as 100 genuine watts" 

[spyder]

15 minutes ago, bremen said:

True enough, and that's assuming the 200, 300 and 500 are measured the same way. What one manufacturer calls 300 another might call 500, and out of two amps rated 500rms at a given distortion level, one might be able to sustain that for 100mS and the other for hours. 

 

Not sure where I'm going with this apart from "don't believe the hype", "get an SVT" and "1000 genuine watts are only twice as loud as 100 genuine watts" 

Very true. We all forget that to go twice as loud as 100 genuine watts you need 1000w.

So the difference between 300 and 500 watts is very small and might not be even heard. 

[Bolo]

Loudness isn't measured in Watt.  What do you mean by "twice as loud" ? From 80dB to 160dB or 83dB? Through what class of amp?

 

To respond to the OP, try a better cab would be step one. See what gear people around you have that you can test, swapping one thing out at a time.

[bremen]

1 hour ago, Bolo said:

Loudness isn't measured in Watt.  What do you mean by "twice as loud" ? From 80dB to 160dB or 83dB? Through what class of amp?

https://recording.org/comment/twice-loud-6db-or-10db

 

As dB is a logarithmic scale, in order to add 10dB you need to increase the power delivered to a given speaker by a factor of 10. So the difference between 80dB and 160dB (going from the spl you might do a mix at, to louder than a bomb and instant deafness) is the difference between 1W and 10MW. Regardless of the class of amplifier. That's as relevant as the colour of the car you got here in. 😀

 

 

[asingardenof]

7 hours ago, BassAdder60 said:

I use my TE Elf into a SVT 212AV 4 ohm cab and it’s loud ! 
 

Better cabs would help 

Yeah, my Sire V7 is pretty low output in passive mode, but running it into the Elf through my BF cab I've actually been told I'm too loud and to turn down, and that's with a five-piece band.

[Bolo]

8 hours ago, bremen said:

True enough, and that's assuming the 200, 300 and 500 are measured the same way. What one manufacturer calls 300 another might call 500, and out of two amps rated 500rms at a given distortion level, one might be able to sustain that for 100mS and the other for hours. 

 

Not sure where I'm going with this apart from "don't believe the hype", "get an SVT" and "1000 genuine watts are only twice as loud as 100 genuine watts" 

From your link: "Every time you double the power output, you are increasing the level by 3dB."

But also: "The established reference is 10dB for twice as loud in perception" among other claims.

 

Quite the mess, and shows why it's better to use either only subjective terms or only objective but accurate terms.

 

 

[bremen]

I dont see the contradiction, both are true.

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

Off the bench to remind everyone doubling power only gets 3dB more each time until the coil starts to heat up. Then the increased coil resistance reduces the efficiency.

 

Shortly after that you will generally run out of excursion and make farty noise.

 

OP seemed pretty clear that the amp and cabs worked well aside from the one bass. New rig is way down the list.

 

OP needs to chime in on his outlaw bass setup check.

[Downunderwonder]

On 30/12/2023 at 11:40, jrixn1 said:

t's near the max, or you can't get the LED to ever turn red, then your bass has low output.  Yes you could get a preamp; another possibility is that there is an issue with the instrument e.g. low pickup height or faulty pickup

Key info gap.

 

OP said both gains were near max.

 

Over to OP when/if he gets back.

 

Low pickup is an easy fix at zero cost. Replacing the pickup not so much.

 

A preamp pedal with a mess of gain would surely sort it for very little as long as there is no impedance mismatch in play. Afaik the Elf has a pretty high input impedance so not likely to be part of the problem.

[MikeStockport]

Looks like my first step is raising the height of the pickups, which currently is quite low. Are there any downsides to this, such as an inferior tone? I've never messed with pickup heights before.

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 29/12/2023 at 20:15, MikeStockport said:

Currently I’m using a Trace Elliot Elf 200W bass head and the matching speakers, a 1x10 and a 2x8. I find that when I play my Munson custom fretless, I have to turn up both the input gain and the master volume to nearly maximum to be loud enough in a gig. I was wondering which would be better: buying a preamp, or getting a more powerful amp head, such as a Markbass 300W?

As someone else has already pointed out the difference between 200W and 300W will only be something like 1.5dB, which hardly is going to make much of a real difference.

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 30/12/2023 at 20:39, Bolo said:

From your link: "Every time you double the power output, you are increasing the level by 3dB."

But also: "The established reference is 10dB for twice as loud in perception" among other claims.

 

Quite the mess, and shows why it's better to use either only subjective terms or only objective but accurate terms.

 

 

No, that isn't a mess and adds up perfectly well:

 

1000W being twice as loud as 100W.

 

100W -> x 2 = 200W (+3dB) -> x 2 = 400W (+3dB) -> x 2 = 800W (+3dB)

 

3 x 3dB = 9dB

 

 

Edited January 1, 2024 by Baloney Balderdash

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, MikeStockport said:

Looks like my first step is raising the height of the pickups, which currently is quite low. Are there any downsides to this, such as an inferior tone? I've never messed with pickup heights before.

So long as you don't raise them so high that the strings strike them you should be fine. It is going to sound more meaty but I figure that's what you want.

[MikeStockport]

Raising the pickup heights isn't going to be easy without spoiling the look of the bass. It's something I'll consider as a future project, but not as a quick fix. So I've purchased (from Amazon, using the gift vouchers I received for Christmas) a Laney DB-PRE Digbeth preamp pedal. I'll let you know how I get on...

[BassmanPaul]

By any chance does the Munson have a built in pre-amp? If yes change your battery. 

[tauzero]

On 05/01/2024 at 13:30, MikeStockport said:

Raising the pickup heights isn't going to be easy without spoiling the look of the bass. It's something I'll consider as a future project, but not as a quick fix. So I've purchased (from Amazon, using the gift vouchers I received for Christmas) a Laney DB-PRE Digbeth preamp pedal. I'll let you know how I get on...

 

Is there something unusual about the way the pickups are mounted? The Munson bespoke basses visible on their website have bog-standard J-type pickups in recesses.

[msb]

The elf is a loud 200 watt amp , however , it’s only a 200 watt amp.

But if it’s only an issue with one bass perhaps you should look at the bass first. Either raising the pickup or trying a pre should give you more signal. If the elf is not giving you enough presence using various basses , look at a more powerful amp. 
 

… and the elf cabs are pretty tiny. You might need more substantial cabs as well. (it never ends)

[BassmanPaul]

@MikeStockport One of my brothers in Liverpool mentioned that Manchester was hit by a tornado. Say what???  if this is true I hope you and yours are all safe and sound. 

 

[bremen]

Brothers in Liverpool always say that about Manchester 😁

[skidder652003]

On 05/01/2024 at 13:30, MikeStockport said:

Raising the pickup heights isn't going to be easy without spoiling the look of the bass. It's something I'll consider as a future project, but not as a quick fix. So I've purchased (from Amazon, using the gift vouchers I received for Christmas) a Laney DB-PRE Digbeth preamp pedal. I'll let you know how I get on...

I was actually going to suggest giving the Laney pre a go, let us know if it helps.