Scam warning…

[Burns-bass]

I’m a member of the Fretboard and someone there (with a  long history of buying and selling) advertised a couple of guitars at competitive prices. 
 

Unfortunately, it was a scam and the guys have lost their cash. Seems his account was compromised and the seller an imposter.

 

This isn’t to gloat or point out how silly or reckless they’ve been, rather a warning I guess to do your due diligence and if possible meet and pay in person.

 

Heres hoping there’s a positive outcome there, but it doesn’t look good.

 

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/259189/1989-gibson-les-paul-standard-candy-apple-red-sold/p1

Edited December 31, 2023 by Burns-bass

[Tandro]

Yep, I was almost caught in one of those scam sales (there was more than one). 

 

Actually let me correct myself, I _was_ indeed suckered into one of those sales, but luckily the payment did not go through (as was the case for a few other people, who all dodged a bullet...others were not as fortunate). 

 

For a quick summary of what to look out for, see:

https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/259362/recent-scams#latest

 

For some paypal scams, check:

https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/259029/paypal-payment-scams#latest

 

I don't mind speaking up and possibly looking like an idiot, if other people can learn and don't repeat my mistakes. 

 

It has me reassessing my practices that I've done for years on sales forums I trust. But its not the forum I need to trust or not, its users on them. You may not be dealing with who you think you are.

 

Incase you think I was dealing with some newbie account, the username selling had been registered for years, had various sales threads and some were marked 'sold'. That normally instills some confidence in me. None of that matters if their account is compromised.

 

And I have done all the wrong things in the book in my purchases over the years...took the messaging off the forum to email, paid by Paypal F&F (with some due diligence, or so I thought).I have had a great transaction every single time.

 

So when things like:

-asked me to pay to a different paypal email account

-then sent his wife's paypal etc.

-not answering my concerns directly

-it felt like he was pressuring me to buy

-throwing in incentives to coerce me to buy

-realising it was a foreign paypal account and not a UK based one

Some of these things I'm sure I've done at least once in the more than a decade on forums, all with no bad consequence. And ppl have indeed been nice to me and thrown in incentives for a sale. But everything at once!? My spidey sense started to go off, but I refused for a while to believe that someone was scamming me!

 

Nothing ever goes wrong - until it does.

 

I got too enthusiastic and dare I say it, greedy. But it just showed me, that someone like me (and others) who has been buying gear for years, let our emotions impair our judgement. We keep convincing ourselves 'that I've done this in the past, it will be fine now'.

 

Possibly the OP can rename the title of this thread to show its about scamming. We all need to be aware. We can become complacent and let our guards down. It really can happen to anyone.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Tandro

[Dankology]

@Tandro - I don't think many people would have been as candid as you in these circumstances. Good on you.

 

I've yet to be successfully scammed but it's surely only a matter of time.

 

Googling the wording of a listing and reverse image searching the photos seems to be a useful way of identifying some sorts of scam. But the scammers do seem to be getting smarter - and targeting the accounts of trusted sellers in specialist forums seems to be an ongoing issue.

[Tandro]

20 minutes ago, Dankology said:

@Tandro - I don't think many people would have been as candid as you in these circumstances. Good on you.

 

I've yet to be successfully scammed but it's surely only a matter of time.

 

Googling the wording of a listing and reverse image searching the photos seems to be a useful way of identifying some sorts of scam. But the scammers do seem to be getting smarter - and targeting the accounts of trusted sellers in specialist forums seems to be an ongoing issue.

 

I appreciate it, and the experience has me rethinking many things.

 

The scammer also caught me at a time when I was out with family and friends, I had some alcohol in my head (not much, but maybe added to my joyous mood), and I was about to score this awesome guitar! I was just in the moment, happy, with family, and tried to quickly do this on a phone (which I normally never do). It just caught me out unsuspectingly.

 

But the root of the problem is we don't speak out. We don't share so that others can avoid our mistakes. A real personal bad (or good) experience goes miles more, than an instruction in a vacuum telling you, 'Do not do this'.

 

And I don't know how to get around the following one, but we have all been trained to not interfere with someone's 'for sale' thread. And the last thing we want to do is falsely accuse someone of something.

 

But in looking at what happened, it was apparent other ppl who tried to buy the guitar(s) got a bad feeling about it, but for various reasons did not say anything. Again, they may have just been being cautious, but as soon as one person said something did not feel right, then a bunch ppl involved all mention they pulled out the deal because it did not feel right etc. That is a tricky one to balance...how do you warn about a 'potential' scam to help other forum members, but not falsely accuse someone and damage their reputation if all it was is a misunderstanding. I dunno...

Edited December 31, 2023 by Tandro

[Burns-bass]

Have changed the title. 
 

I’ve been scammed before. Not on here, but by a few customers to my business.

 

Its all based on trust and sometimes that goes too far. I’m done with online selling of instruments. It’s just too dangerous. It’s pickup all the way.

[Reggaebass]

Thanks for highlighting this, I’m on the fretboard and occasionally have adverts out for basses, I’ll keep an eye out 

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Its all based on trust and sometimes that goes too far. I’m done with online selling of instruments. It’s just too dangerous. It’s pickup all the way.

 

Sadly I'm starting to agree, I used to see eBay, BC etc as a gear exchange, but with increasingly poor and expensive couriers, persistent scammers, and to a lesser degree a tangible shift towards the negative in the culture of buying and selling used musical gear, I'm feeling much the same way

 

Bloody glad you sold your Bryant though Lawrie, it was causing me sleepless nights  

[Burns-bass]

1 minute ago, Beedster said:

 

Sadly I'm starting to agree, I used to see eBay, BC etc as a gear exchange, but with increasingly poor and expensive couriers, persistent scammers, and to a lesser degree a tangible shift towards the negative in the culture of buying and selling used musical gear, I'm feeling much the same way

 

Bloody glad you sold your Bryant though Lawrie, it was causing me sleepless nights  

I just realised how much time I was wasting buying stuff I didn’t want, need, or use. In the end, I found what I was chasing…

 

This year I did 40 it more gigs plus about the same number of sessions with my old people’s group. It showed me I loved the playing, and massively helped me to focus on what I need and use and the stuff I don’t.

 

The Bryant was something I loved but having it here was a constant reminder of my failings. So selling it to someone who now uses it every day has freed me of that. I’ve now sold everything I don’t use, given away guitars and instruments to friends, and now feel so much happier. Still got one last freebie listing to do at some point tomorrow and then it’s all gone. 

 

I’ve probably lost a fair few quid, but feel a million times better. 
 

I guess it’s the opposite of scamming people!

 

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

I just realised how much time I was wasting buying stuff I didn’t want, need, or use. In the end, I found what I was chasing…

 

This year I did 40 it more gigs plus about the same number of sessions with my old people’s group. It showed me I loved the playing, and massively helped me to focus on what I need and use and the stuff I don’t.

 

The Bryant was something I loved but having it here was a constant reminder of my failings. So selling it to someone who now uses it every day has freed me of that. I’ve now sold everything I don’t use, given away guitars and instruments to friends, and now feel so much happier. Still got one last freebie listing to do at some point tomorrow and then it’s all gone. 

 

I’ve probably lost a fair few quid, but feel a million times better. 
 

I guess it’s the opposite of scamming people!

 

 

Nice one Lawrie, you're a credit to the forum, I'm aiming to do something similar myself in 2024 👍

[Burns-bass]

12 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Nice one Lawrie, you're a credit to the forum, I'm aiming to do something similar myself in 2024 👍

It’s how the world should work!

 

Just figuring out what’s going…

 

 

[tauzero]

Last night I almost got caught out. Expecting an Evri/Herpes delivery, and I got an email saying that an attempt had been made to deliver but there was no answer and provided a link button to go to the portal. I clicked on the button and Avast sounded lots of sirens and warned me off - the URL was a .ph one which I think is Phillippines. I should have spotted the dodgy email address that it came from and also hovered over the link before clicking it but I think the content distracted me, plus me asking why Mrs Zero had missed the knock on the door (I was on the way back from rehearsal at the supposed delivery time). I don't know what it was phishing for but I'm sure it would have wanted some sort of payment or bank account details. I have slapped myself on the wrist.

[peponbass]

I wish I had read this post few weeks ago.

 

As Tandro said, I don't mind speaking up and look like an idiot, but if this could help to save some pain to someone else, than it'll be worth it.

 

I did post in the wanted category of the bass market, as I am looking for a Hipshot D-tuner BT-10. This was about a month ago.

Nothing happened for weeks until I got a message from a user, nickname zooh (which I understand has been banned).

He stated he had a friend, someone called kasem (which I thought was a member as well) who had what I was looking for and wanted to sell, and he gave me the email address of this kasem (first red flag I should have noticed!)

I contacted this guy and he said, yes I do have it, in very good condition, with bolt and washer etc, he also mentioned the model of bass he used the D-tuner on. So everything looked legit, he seemed to know what he was talking about.

He sent me some pictures, I did a reverse search to make sure were not taken from the internet, and they weren't (apparently).

He also asked me if I would collect! I said no, after knowing he's from Grimsby,  too far from me and asked if he could ship. He said yes, I asked for some details, an address, and if he could text me from his phone, which he did. So I had a phone number too!

 

I offer payment via Paypal or Revolut or bank transfer and then he gave me "his wife" paypal which also was on a foreign currency, US dollars in this case (second red flag, which I only learnt afterwards. I just though, ok his wife must be American).

But then I also thought "it's only 45 quid, who's gonna make a scam for such a small amount? Also the guy seems to know what he's talking about", and I kind of trusted being recommended by a member of the forum. Ok this "zooh" guy account is a newbie, but hey, I am a newbie myself in this forum.
Anyway, I sent the money, and the day after I emailed again saying I made the payment and to let me know when he would ship (because he had told me that he would have shipped the day after when not working). He also reply to the email saying  "yes I am on my way to the post office, I'll send you details as soon as I'm done".

After that,  radio-silence. After another couple of days I tried to ring the number that he texted me from and....the number doesn't exist. Ok, I should have rang the number and check before making the payment.

 

If you have read until here you are probably thinking I am an idiot, and you are right. But again, if this could save some pain to someone else, then fine.

 

The red flags have already been listed in this thread, but let's reiterate some of them in particular

 

-deal via email outside the forum - red flag

-asked  to pay as FF to a different paypal email account, (a wife, a relative, etc) on a foreign currency - SUPER red flag

 

All I am trying  to say, be extra careful. That zooh account is now banned, but they can sign in with a new one and try it again.

If I had known the above two red flags before that wouldn't have happened, but again, it looked very legit. And I can add, I have always been careful and updated on scam procedures, but here I am, I have got caught for the first time.

 

Bear in mind, do not trust even if:

 

- knowledge of the item and what's related

-asking if  could collect (ok must have taken my location from my IP address, so he knew I would have said no)

-texting from a proper phone number - make sure you ring the number to make sure you're dealing with an actual person.

 

That's it for now, any question, feel free to ask here or DM me.

 

Cheers 

 

 

 

[ped]

When we first opened the 'Wanted' forum, we had lots of people say they had been contacted by someone who - surprise surprise - had the exact item they were looking for, and did they want it?

 

I ended up making the forum only visible if you had at least one post on the forum which pretty much stopped it dead, but it has always been a bit awkward for genuine members. I'm wondering now whether it needs placing behind the subscription wall so that there's more assurance that offers are genuine. In the meantime perhaps a new warning banner is in order to encourage people to be especially vigilant when it comes to that type of PM, and to ask for pictures of the item with the username written on today's paper or something!

[Beedster]

51 minutes ago, peponbass said:

I wish I had read this post few weeks ago.

 

As Tandro said, I don't mind speaking up and look like an idiot, but if this could help to save some pain to someone else, than it'll be worth it.

 

I did post in the wanted category of the bass market, as I am looking for a Hipshot D-tuner BT-10. This was about a month ago.

Nothing happened for weeks until I got a message from a user, nickname zooh (which I understand has been banned).

He stated he had a friend, someone called kasem (which I thought was a member as well) who had what I was looking for and wanted to sell, and he gave me the email address of this kasem (first red flag I should have noticed!)

I contacted this guy and he said, yes I do have it, in very good condition, with bolt and washer etc, he also mentioned the model of bass he used the D-tuner on. So everything looked legit, he seemed to know what he was talking about.

He sent me some pictures, I did a reverse search to make sure were not taken from the internet, and they weren't (apparently).

He also asked me if I would collect! I said no, after knowing he's from Grimsby,  too far from me and asked if he could ship. He said yes, I asked for some details, an address, and if he could text me from his phone, which he did. So I had a phone number too!

 

I offer payment via Paypal or Revolut or bank transfer and then he gave me "his wife" paypal which also was on a foreign currency, US dollars in this case (second red flag, which I only learnt afterwards. I just though, ok his wife must be American).

But then I also thought "it's only 45 quid, who's gonna make a scam for such a small amount? Also the guy seems to know what he's talking about", and I kind of trusted being recommended by a member of the forum. Ok this "zooh" guy account is a newbie, but hey, I am a newbie myself in this forum.
Anyway, I sent the money, and the day after I emailed again saying I made the payment and to let me know when he would ship (because he had told me that he would have shipped the day after when not working). He also reply to the email saying  "yes I am on my way to the post office, I'll send you details as soon as I'm done".

After that,  radio-silence. After another couple of days I tried to ring the number that he texted me from and....the number doesn't exist. Ok, I should have rang the number and check before making the payment.

 

If you have read until here you are probably thinking I am an idiot, and you are right. But again, if this could save some pain to someone else, then fine.

 

The red flags have already been listed in this thread, but let's reiterate some of them in particular

 

-deal via email outside the forum - red flag

-asked  to pay as FF to a different paypal email account, (a wife, a relative, etc) on a foreign currency - SUPER red flag

 

All I am trying  to say, be extra careful. That zooh account is now banned, but they can sign in with a new one and try it again.

If I had known the above two red flags before that wouldn't have happened, but again, it looked very legit. And I can add, I have always been careful and updated on scam procedures, but here I am, I have got caught for the first time.

 

Bear in mind, do not trust even if:

 

- knowledge of the item and what's related

-asking if  could collect (ok must have taken my location from my IP address, so he knew I would have said no)

-texting from a proper phone number - make sure you ring the number to make sure you're dealing with an actual person.

 

That's it for now, any question, feel free to ask here or DM me.

 

Cheers 

 

 

 

 

You're not an idiot @peponbass, I think you took more precautions than many people would (e.g., Google image search, phone number etc), and were pretty unlucky to be scammed on such a small item. Thanks for sharing either way 👍

[Tandro]

Thank You @peponbass for sharing your experience and helping everyone on this forum be more knowledgable and safe.

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, peponbass said:

got a message from a user, nickname zooh

Thanks for sharing your experience, it’s something that can happen to anyone and it’s good to know, I’ve spent literally thousands here with no problems but you never know 

[Richard R]

Can we pin this thread? Or a pinned post in Wanted and Marketplace with the list of red flags to watch out for?

 

 

[Rumblebass]

I’ve been caught by this Zooh/Kasem H … Hipshot DeTuner available as per my wanted advert. Payment sent via PayPal… heard nothing since .. emails go unanswered & zooh has disappeared. Obviously I should have checked the forum first!  Beware!!

R.

[Reggaebass]

16 minutes ago, Rumblebass said:

I’ve been caught by this Zooh/Kasem H

Sorry to hear this, thanks for sharing Rumblebass 

[Downunderwonder]

What kind of psycho goes after musicians at 50 quid a pop? Shades of Mick Mason.

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

What kind of psycho goes after musicians at 50 quid a pop? Shades of Mick Mason.

It’s because it’s what’s considered A fairly inconsequential amount. The police won’t bother and most people will write it off as an experience. Therefore, they’re more likely to get away with it.

[digitalscream]

Just spotted this - I'm the unfortunate schmuck who runs thefretboard, and this particular set of scams (there were more than one) came down to accounts compromised through two vectors: one was a man-in-the-middle attack, and the other was simple password reuse from other sites that have been breached. The scammer would compromise an existing user account with good reputation, change the email address and then get scamming...thus bypassing all the in-community protections.

 

Given that enforcing MFA would destroy the site's traffic, and forcing everybody to change their passwords would be...unpopular...the simple solution was to prevent users changing their email addresses (they have to come through admin requests now) until I can finish rewriting the forum software to actually not be junk.

 

Just on this other point...

 

On 28/01/2024 at 23:15, Downunderwonder said:

What kind of psycho goes after musicians at 50 quid a pop? Shades of Mick Mason.

 

There's a very good reason, and we had one scammer in the early days who took loads of people for a total of thousands - he'd do it across guitar forums, photography forums, even a Jack Daniels enthusiast forum. The point is that Action Fraud don't care unless there's a pattern of high-value crimes; even when presented with all the evidence they need to make an open-and-shut case, they won't touch it when the value's that low. His approach was depressingly simple...he'd just sell the same thing over and over again, and post an empty envelope via Royal Mail Signed For to another address on the same street. Because they only tracked stuff by postcode in those days, he could "prove" that it was signed for, but the buyer would never know that there was nothing sent and RM would back up his story.

[Burns-bass]

8 minutes ago, digitalscream said:

Just spotted this - I'm the unfortunate schmuck who runs thefretboard, and this particular set of scams (there were more than one) came down to accounts compromised through two vectors: one was a man-in-the-middle attack, and the other was simple password reuse from other sites that have been breached. The scammer would compromise an existing user account with good reputation, change the email address and then get scamming...thus bypassing all the in-community protections.

 

Given that enforcing MFA would destroy the site's traffic, and forcing everybody to change their passwords would be...unpopular...the simple solution was to prevent users changing their email addresses (they have to come through admin requests now) until I can finish rewriting the forum software to actually not be junk.

 

Just on this other point...

 

 

There's a very good reason, and we had one scammer in the early days who took loads of people for a total of thousands - he'd do it across guitar forums, photography forums, even a Jack Daniels enthusiast forum. The point is that Action Fraud don't care unless there's a pattern of high-value crimes; even when presented with all the evidence they need to make an open-and-shut case, they won't touch it when the value's that low. His approach was depressingly simple...he'd just sell the same thing over and over again, and post an empty envelope via Royal Mail Signed For to another address on the same street. Because they only tracked stuff by postcode in those days, he could "prove" that it was signed for, but the buyer would never know that there was nothing sent and RM would back up his story.

I was the one who shared the issue here to protect people and I’d say that your actions to support members was really appreciated, by me at least, and others I’m sure.

 

I just wanted to share what’s happened to help others avoid the same thing.

 

Love the Fretboard!

[Geddys nose]

Great idea locking the email to the user name 👍

[digitalscream]

4 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

I was the one who shared the issue here to protect people and I’d say that your actions to support members was really appreciated, by me at least, and others I’m sure.

 

I just wanted to share what’s happened to help others avoid the same thing.

 

Love the Fretboard!

Not a problem - I'm a big fan of transparency, and warning others in the community is definitely a good thing (it could happen anywhere).

1 minute ago, Geddys nose said:

Great idea locking the email to the user name 👍

Cheers, but...honestly, it seemed like the only bit that I could reasonably control! It's increased admin workload a bit, but it hasn't become particularly problematic (yet).