Vibrato - what the hell?

[thepurpleblob]

Spurred on by Guy Pratt's column in this month's Bass Guitar magazine I was looking at vibrato. His column is a bit useless as all he manages to say is "wobble the string". How the hell do you do that? Bass strings are big heavy thick things that are hard enough to bend never mind "wobble". I've managed to avoid this one for all these years - mostly because I clearly have no clue. Am I just being an idiot or is it really impossible?

[AM1]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='485353' date='May 11 2009, 09:34 PM']Spurred on by Guy Pratt's column in this month's Bass Guitar magazine I was looking at vibrato. His column is a bit useless as all he manages to say is "wobble the string". How the hell do you do that? Bass strings are big heavy thick things that are hard enough to bend never mind "wobble". I've managed to avoid this one for all these years - mostly because I clearly have no clue. Am I just being an idiot or is it really impossible?[/quote]

Hiya - funnily enough I've been playing with this, but only cos I have been listening to Van Morrison "Wild Nights" and couldn't resist trying it (but in that case it's not really vibrato, it's more like a trill done by a fast hammer on and off) but you get the idea.

Just push the string up with your finger then pull it back down, keeping your finger on the string - but alternate it really fast - gives a great "shake" sound. It's really addictive though, I sense it would be easy to overkill it!

Edited May 11, 2009 by AM1

[Beedster]

There's many different types of vibrato and infinite degrees of each. Despite what you might think from what a lot of players say, there's nothing virtuous about it, it's just a different tonal option which if used well adds to tone and sustain and, IMO, if used excessively, can make the sound overbearing and pretentious, especially on fretless (I've always thought that one of the problems with many fretless players is that they add too much vibrato to their playing as if to say "hey, I'm playing fretless everyone"). On a fretted bass true vibrato has to be achieved through vertical movement of the string (i.e., at 90 degrees to the string), which is hard. On a fretless it can be achieved either vertically or horizontally (although vertical wears your board more). Having said this, horizontal vibrato on a fretted tends to have an effect, albeit one of increasing sustain without modulating pitch to anything like the same degree as on a fretless.

Vibrato on a fretted is achieved by simply planting the finger as a pivot and rolling the hand around that pivot in any of the ranges of movement available (the more you come at it from below the more this will modulate pitch). Keeping the degree of movement fixed and increasing speed will give you one type of tone whilst keeping the speed fixed whilst increasing the degree of movement will give you another. You have to play around to hear the effects. On a fretless the variables are multiplied but the same principle applies.

I would start by simply fretting a note using your second or third finger and simply roll your hand forwards and backwards over that finger and listen to what that does to your tone. Vary the speed for a while and see what happens, then vary the degree of movement for a while and likewise check out the results. Pick what works for you.

Chris

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Beedster' post='485365' date='May 11 2009, 09:55 PM']Vibrato on a fretted is achieved by simply planting the finger as a pivot and rolling the hand around that pivot in any of the ranges of movement available (the more you come at it from below the more this will modulate pitch). Keeping the degree of movement fixed and increasing speed will give you one type of tone whilst keeping the speed fixed whilst increasing the degree of movement will give you another. You have to play around to hear the effects. On a fretless the variables are multiplied but the same principle applies.

I would start by simply fretting a note using your second or third finger and simply roll your hand forwards and backwards over that finger and listen to what that does to your tone. Vary the speed for a while and see what happens, then vary the degree of movement for a while and likewise check out the results. Pick what works for you.

Chris[/quote]

I'm even more confused... Surely that doesn't do anything. It's still fretted in the same place so the note stays the same?? On the other hand, "bending" the string is too hard. I know - practice, practice, practice. Not sure I care enough though.

[Beedster]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='485370' date='May 11 2009, 10:02 PM']I'm even more confused... Surely that doesn't do anything. It's still fretted in the same place so the note stays the same?? On the other hand, "bending" the string is too hard. I know - practice, practice, practice. Not sure I care enough though.[/quote]

Just try it and see

[Paul_C]

You can also get a more subtle vibrato in the same way a violinist will, by holding the note and moving your hand from side to side - not rolling the finger from side to side but using the movement of the hand combined with the grip of the finger on the string to slightly pull and push the string along its length, altering the pitch of the note.

[Doddy]

I don't think that Guy Pratt explained how to apply vibrato very well in his column.
I always think about using vibrato in three ways..........
1...Classical style-where you pivot your finger from side to side similar to a violinist. It's pretty useless on a fretted bass,
but adds nice texture to fretless.
2...Blues style-where you bend the string up and down laterally similar to a guitarist. I prefer this on a fretted bass as it would
harm the 'board on a fretless.
3...Funk style-where you move your finger quickly between the target note and the next fret. I think this is the hardest to
pull off,but it sounds great in context.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Doddy' post='485385' date='May 11 2009, 10:22 PM']1...Classical style-where you pivot your finger from side to side similar to a violinist. It's pretty useless on a fretted bass,
but adds nice texture to fretless.[/quote]

Although it's nowhere near as pronounced as examples 2 and 3, IMO it's certainly more pronounced than a static finger placement

[Doddy]

Yeah it is more pronounced than static finger placement,but in a noisy gig situation the difference will be
pretty unnoticable on a fretted instrument.

[AM1]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='485370' date='May 11 2009, 10:02 PM']I'm even more confused... Surely that doesn't do anything. It's still fretted in the same place so the note stays the same?? On the other hand, "bending" the string is too hard. I know - practice, practice, practice. Not sure I care enough though.[/quote]

Do you know how to do a pull-off? It's not too dissimilar but keep your finger over the string - honestly it's not as hard to bend the string as you think - if my pathetic girly fingers can do it, you can!

Just get your finger well over the string and bend it, the more of your finger tip that's over the string, the more leverage to bend it - it's not the same as bending an electric guitar string but once you get it first time, it's easy after that.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Doddy' post='485397' date='May 11 2009, 10:36 PM']Yeah it is more pronounced than static finger placement,but in a noisy gig situation the difference will be
pretty unnoticable on a fretted instrument.[/quote]

Fair point Doddy

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='AM1' post='485399' date='May 11 2009, 10:38 PM']Do you know how to do a pull-off? It's not too dissimilar but keep your finger over the string - honestly it's not as hard to bend the string as you think - if my pathetic girly fingers can do it, you can!

Just get your finger well over the string and bend it, the more of your finger tip that's over the string, the more leverage to bend it - it's not the same as bending an electric guitar string but once you get it first time, it's easy after that.[/quote]

I think I do but it's something else that I never found easy or natural and hence have tended to avoid unless I have to.

I *can* bend the string but to do it repetitively and quickly just doesn't happen. It's all, "Grrrrrrrr... stretch... breath... Grrrrrr... stretch... breath"

[Mike]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK03pYCLJho"]Check this link of Talk Wilkenfeld playing. Some nice solo vibrato stuff going on from 1min50.[/url]

[maxrossell]

This is where being a guitard comes in handy.

There's all sorts of techniques for it, you look at for instance Hendrix, who would rake the string up and down by using his fingers as pistons (the way I try to do it), or BB king who keeps his index on the note and then just kind of waggles his hand, which wobbles the string.

Okay, so it's harder to do on a bass, but the Hendrix-style way works okay - if you start off by trying it out around the 12th fret, where the string is easiest to shift, and the work down from there, it should come to you.

The hardest part to nail is the feel for it, the right speed and so on. But all that's just practice stuff. And when you get it down, it really will make a difference, you can start giving whole new textures to the low-end of a mix.

Edited May 12, 2009 by maxrossell

[AM1]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='485541' date='May 12 2009, 07:31 AM']This is where being a guitard comes in handy.[/quote]

Ahhh. That explains a lot.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='485541' date='May 12 2009, 07:31 AM']This is where being a guitard comes in handy.[/quote]

Yeh - I never played guitar and (however much we slag off geetards) I've always thought it was a handicap. Guitarists show me chords on their guitars and it's "that's nice, but I've no idea what you're showing me!". Then there's all the odd techniques which seem to be second nature to the guitar types. I did try to learn a while back but I mostly discovered that it was really difficult. Trying to get my fingers to bend into chord shapes with only a few microns between the strings was just not happening for an old over-forty-something like me!!

[mcgraham]

From my understanding, there are multiple ways of doing vibrato. On electric instruments you have a number of different options:

1) Sideways motion - ala minute bends upwards and downwards at a particular rate. This seems to be the preferred method of vibrato amongst guitarists. It can be used to achieve very extreme vibrato in both rate and depth of the vibrato. However, a LOT of guitarists who use this technique do not control it well, they just randomly waggle their fingers and get massively inconsistent vibrato. There are many variations within this. Some guitarists like Joe Satriani keep a concrete hand position and pivot from the wrist (thumb over the neck/near top of the neck). In contrast, some guitarists like Michael Angelo Batio have their thumbs well behind the neck and bend using a pushing motion from their fingers. Guthrie Govan uses both.

2) Lengthways motion - ala pushing and pulling the string towards and away from the headstock. This is more traditional vibrato like on fretless bowed instruments. It can be less pronounced on fretted instruments but it's easier to control rate and depth, and you can get multiple strings moving at once. You also have the option of using your finger, your hand or your elbow to control this vibrato. Classical guitarists often use this, violinists, cellists etc. This is my favourite type of vibrato. With practice it can become quite extreme for such a subtle movement.

3) 'Compression' motion - ala gripping and releasing the string into the fretboard to increase tension. I can see this working on scalloped guitar fretboards, or high up on a violin fretboard, but unless you have massive frets on bass, this may not be the best option. Certainly not my favourite option.

There's probably others but those are the ones I'm acquainted with. Different people will find different vibrato types easier than others, and you will have your own preference regarding how to use vibrato (i.e. depth, rate, variation in the two, etc) and the tones each type gets. Experiment, find what works mechanically, identify what you like sonically, and work on achieving your favourite sound using these techniques.

RE: vibrato being noticeable in a band situation - it is totally noticeable provided you use the right type of vibrato for the right situation. Vibrato and bends can be noticeable in even very noisy conditions, you just need to experiment and find what works mechanically for you together with what works in the context.

Mark

[xilddx]

[quote name='Beedster' post='485395' date='May 11 2009, 10:33 PM']Although it's nowhere near as pronounced as examples 2 and 3, IMO it's certainly more pronounced than a static finger placement[/quote]

Beedster is absolutely right. Try it on the higher notes above the 12th fret and you will see what a pronounced effect it has on note expression. This is because you are varying the pressure on the string, ie. pushing it toward the board (the closer your finger is to the fret the more pronounced it will be), and you are also getting some minor up and down movement too.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='485620' date='May 12 2009, 09:24 AM']From my understanding, there are multiple ways of doing vibrato. On electric instruments you have a number of different options:

1) Sideways motion - ala minute bends upwards and downwards at a particular rate. This seems to be the preferred method of vibrato amongst guitarists. It can be used to achieve very extreme vibrato in both rate and depth of the vibrato. However, a LOT of guitarists who use this technique do not control it well, they just randomly waggle their fingers and get massively inconsistent vibrato. There are many variations within this. Some guitarists like Joe Satriani keep a concrete hand position and pivot from the wrist (thumb over the neck/near top of the neck). In contrast, some guitarists like Michael Angelo Batio have their thumbs well behind the neck and bend using a pushing motion from their fingers. Guthrie Govan uses both.

2) Lengthways motion - ala pushing and pulling the string towards and away from the headstock. This is more traditional vibrato like on fretless bowed instruments. It can be less pronounced on fretted instruments but it's easier to control rate and depth, and you can get multiple strings moving at once. You also have the option of using your finger, your hand or your elbow to control this vibrato. Classical guitarists often use this, violinists, cellists etc. This is my favourite type of vibrato. With practice it can become quite extreme for such a subtle movement.

3) 'Compression' motion - ala gripping and releasing the string into the fretboard to increase tension. I can see this working on scalloped guitar fretboards, or high up on a violin fretboard, but unless you have massive frets on bass, this may not be the best option. Certainly not my favourite option.

There's probably others but those are the ones I'm acquainted with. Different people will find different vibrato types easier than others, and you will have your own preference regarding how to use vibrato (i.e. depth, rate, variation in the two, etc) and the tones each type gets. Experiment, find what works mechanically, identify what you like sonically, and work on achieving your favourite sound using these techniques.

RE: vibrato being noticeable in a band situation - it is totally noticeable provided you use the right type of vibrato for the right situation. Vibrato and bends can be noticeable in even very noisy conditions, you just need to experiment and find what works mechanically for you together with what works in the context.

Mark[/quote]

Excellent post, Mark... I just wanted to add that with all vibrato techniques, the one thing that's going to cause the biggest problems is incorrect left hand technique. For instance, if you hold the neck directly in the palm of your hand, the tendons in the wrist will lock & you'll have no lateral movement at all. Best thing is to keep the thumb behind the neck (not peeking over the edge of the neck) & make sure there's plenty of clearance between the neck & hand. Play on fingertips as opposed to on flat fingers. This will ensure you'll have more pressure on the string. Classical vibrato is the hardest (lengthways), but with practice you can get some lovely sounds coming through.

Rich.

[mcgraham]

Thanks Rich! You're also a classical upright bassist yes? How do you utilise vibrato there? Do you have a preference?

Mark

[OutToPlayJazz]

Yes, I am - And a cellist too.

On the classical instruments you have to do the north-south method, as the fingerboards aren't curved like an electric. There're usually two lightly bevelled edges, making the board more angular (on three planes) than curved.

I usually tell pupils to group fingers - The index finger is pretty stong, but can be supported a little by the second finger. The second finger can pretty much stand alone. The third finger works better when combined with the second for stability & the little finger again, works well combined with the third. The thumb should always be kept in contact with the neck as well.

I try to get people to think of vibrato as a "cyclic" movement - Almost moving to the feel of groups of eight semiquavers (think "wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa.") This gives the vibrato a more rhythmic feel, although the speed can be varied according to the speed and feel of the music.

I also try to get people to start the note first (gaining stability in the note), then adding in vibrato & making sure it carries on until the end of the note. This also gives the note more of a shape and some extra variation in texture. Vibrato can also start before the note - This gives a more urgent and musically passionate feel to the note.

There's so much you can do with it!

Rich.

Edited May 12, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz

[Wil]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='485740' date='May 12 2009, 11:08 AM']I usually tell pupils to group fingers - The index finger is pretty stong, but can be supported a little by the second finger. The second finger can pretty much stand alone. The third finger works better when combined with the second for stability & the little finger again, works well combined with the third. The thumb should always be kept in contact with the neck as well.[/quote]

+1 on that. I'm a guitarist these days and struggled to get consistant, easy bends and vibrato until I started grouping my fingers.

[The Funk]

I play with a lot of bends and vibrato all over the place. It makes the notes and phrases sound exactly how I want them to sound. A small amount of vibrato and small bends can go a long way.

[mcgraham]

I tend to use vibrato with a lot of grace microtonal bends. For example, just bending a note slightly above it's ideal pitch briefly and returning to it really makes a note stand out. It's requires a bit of work to make it not too extreme or long to sound bad, but not so subtle or short that it's not noticeable. This is also useful for bending up to another note, lots of fun in walking lines. Uses a lot more finger strength and control than perhaps an ideal style of vibrato.

Bending up to notes is another favourite trick of mine. If you can do it well on guitar it really helps. Noticeable bends up to a note at key points in a song can really help the bass stand out and add some variation.

Mark

[Chest Rockwell]

I'm bumping this thread from 2009!

I'd like to add vibrato ability to what I'm doing on occasion, but I have Never been able to do it. I can bend strings up and down wherever I like (and do!), but i cannot get a note to vibrate for longer than a few milliseconds and the note fades sounds unvibrato'd!. Im trying to move my wrist on a pivot sometimes im trying so hard my right/plucking hand and both arms start to shake!! i feel like my hand/wrist/arm are stiff and should probably be relaxed. is that true? im trying to send signals to my fingers but no significant subtle masterful vibrato happens! I've read and watched guitar clips and everything but i seem to be stuck. can anyone find any fretted bass vibrato video lessons anywhere?