la bam Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Just having a think... mainly due to the dire situation current pop music is in.. The cost of living at the moment is crazy. How youngsters are supposed to own a vehicle or home, or even rent is beyond me. Being a musician has always been seen as hard graft, being in an originals band trying to 'make it' was always fought with little money and being difficult to make ends meet. But, with a bit of luck it was possible. But now.... How are bands supposed to make it or even try when even renting a flat is astronomical, hotels and b and bs cost a fortune, you can't buy a decent van for under 5 grand, tax and insurance will be the same, and then there's fuel and food???! Most will be forced into a job before even being able to give it a go. The only ones I can see having half a chance are bedroom producers on their laptops. I can't see genuine real bands having a chance at all. Is new music and new bands strictly a rich kids game going forward? 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassfinger Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 What is this "job" thing whereof you speak? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolo Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Was it much different in the late 70s-early 80s? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SumOne Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) Your question assumes pop music is in a dire state. Not everyone would agree with that statement. Also, is cost of living actually worse now than times like the late 70s (when lots of great bands were making music)? And it's cheaper than ever to get budget equipment an old laptop and record your band and self-release music and promote via social media. I'd say in many ways it's a great time for making music. Just different to how it was before. Edited January 7 by SumOne 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 IMO cheap supermarket beer is in the process of killing live music. 12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 14 minutes ago, chris_b said: IMO cheap supermarket beer is in the process of killing live music. Property prices are killing live music. Business rates are based on property prices in any area. You can't enjoy living in a prosperous area and then complain about the price of everything. It's an oxymoron. Lack of imagination at live venues and pubs is killing them. Many pubs are "we are a pub, we sell beer. Have live music Friday night and karaoke Saturday night." mentality. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 The main thing for me is that the youth don’t seem to go out to pubs/clubs/venues as much as previous generations, be that due to cost or that they just seem to live healthier lives than my generation did. As such it’s a question of how to tap into your intended audience. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, la bam said: Being a musician has always been seen as hard graft, being in an originals band trying to 'make it' was always fought with little money and being difficult to make ends meet. But, with a bit of luck it was possible. But now.... How are bands supposed to make it or even try when even renting a flat is astronomical, hotels and b and bs cost a fortune, you can't buy a decent van for under 5 grand, tax and insurance will be the same, and then there's fuel and food???! Most will be forced into a job before even being able to give it a go. Anything worth having is hard graft. The world owes us nothing. Everyone has to find money for fuel, food and accommodation. They all have to tax and insure their vehicles. What makes musicians exempt from this? "Forced into a job"? What makes a musician so special that he/she shouldn't have to work for a living? If you want to do or become something, it's perfectly normal and reasonable that you work for a living and treat that something as a side-line, hopefully building it up to become a profession over time. Work on it in your free time in the evenings and at weekends and don't expect a free ride from the rest of us whilst you "make it". You can buy a vehicle that will get you about for a lot less than 5k. Of course, you may have to lift the bonnet and get your hands dirty occasionally (horror of horrors - don't you know I'm an artiste and have to protect my delicate hands?) to keep it going, but tough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) Since nobody wants to pay for music anymore, bands need to magic up sizeable start-up capital from somewhere in order to be able to afford to do these tours where the people who won't pay for their music come out in their multitudes, cash gleefully in hand, to buy loads of their merch as promised... which they also need capital beforehand to have the merch made and transported along with their pretty, talented selves. You kind of need to have money to be able to afford to make money, these days. There's sod all label support, there's no real revenue stream apart from selling branded tat so, since the music is just a ludicrous expense and the branded tat is where the money is... why would you spend time making music and just sell a brand or your branded tat instead? Much easier and less stress, I reckon... or just put videos up on youtube where you make odd facial expressions for the picture to hook people into something they WON'T BELIEVE and maybe that's what people are doing instead of making new music? Edited January 7 by Doctor J 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 4 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: You can buy a vehicle that will get you about for a lot less than 5k. Of course, you may have to lift the bonnet and get your hands dirty occasionally (horror of horrors - don't you know I'm an artiste and have to protect my delicate hands?) to keep it going, but tough. I'm not sure this is true. It's very difficult to keep a vehicle running for less than £400 a month. However you slice that pie, £5k a year seems to be about the rate money disappears on any vehicle I've ever owned. Insurance, tax, MOT, servicing, repairs, depreciation etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Doctor J said: Since nobody wants to pay for music anymore The music market is flooded with lowest common denominator music. It's not really worth paying for to own. Add in Spotify pay a few quid for as much as you can listen to and music is further devalued. So many artists are either just copying what someone else has done a million times, or trying so hard to be different that what they're producing doesn't have a market. It all went wrong when you could record music and sell it en-masse. Whoever owned the means of production or distribution was going to be the one who controlled the cash. Same has happened with TV. The streaming Box set means people are addicted to a series and won't leave their sofa until they've watched it. I struggle with a lot of my friends who tell me I'm lucky to be playing in 3 bands and go running and stay thin, and ask me where I find the time. Then ask me if I've seen the latest 'season' of X. Not the latest episode?! The latest season. On Netflix a season of anything is about 8-12 hours of watching. So how do you create FOMO for your band? That's the marketing win. Make going to see your band an experience that everyone wants to be part of. And that's by engaging people and making them feel special. In the old days having a mate who played in a band was enough to get you out. Regardless how rubbish that band was, it was where all your mates were going and it's what they'd all be taking about for days. Not some rubbish TV island celebrity jungle pizza fest. Very often your mates band didn't even have t-shirts or tapes to sell, anywhere. Edited January 7 by TimR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie C Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Bolo said: Was it much different in the late 70s-early 80s? I suppose in the 70s & 80s the UK had student grants, so there was the route the likes of Bowie followed of going to art college and having a few years to experiment. 44 minutes ago, chris_b said: IMO cheap supermarket beer is in the process of killing live music. Maybe I'm just too old, but for me loud volume is killing live music. We were at a pub last weekend, just for a beer. There was a band setting up and we would have stayed, but they were SO LOUD. The drummer was wearing industrial ear protectors... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 3 minutes ago, Rosie C said: Maybe I'm just too old, but for me loud volume is killing live music. We were at a pub last weekend, just for a beer. There was a band setting up and we would have stayed, but they were SO LOUD. The drummer was wearing industrial ear protectors... Yes. I used to gig in the 80s with a 100w vocal PA where the vocals were just about audible above the drums. My bass amp was 100w combo. We now gig with a 2x250w PA and my bass amp is 500W. Not that we don't play appropriate volumes for the venue, but many bands have that kind of power and don't. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) I’m lucky to live in a city like Bristol where live music is everywhere. The costs of living here are insane. To illustrate, the cost to rent a single room in a shared house on my street (£600) is equivalent to a mortgage payment when we bought the 4 bed house (in 2013). Couple massive demand from students and young professionals with a buoyant BTL sector and you get a housing crisis - which is what Bristol is experiencing at the moment. Yet they’re still out there doing it and I’m massively impressed. From the young people I meet doing gigs and who I play with, music isn’t ever going to be a full time career. Arguably they’re much more commercially savvy and less egotistical than (from what I’ve heard) musicians were in the 70s and 80s. And if my mates are playing in a band, I’ll still go (don’t like lager) To the young music makers: I salute you! Edited January 7 by Burns-bass 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) My niece has her own Indie band. She's been in the UK charts but makes very little money from selling her music (Her music has streamed ten million times on Spotify in the last 10 years but the annual income that has produced is the equivalent of the average salary of a lollipop lady). She can't play in the EU any more due to the visa restrictions and legal hurdles Brexit created, therefore she's had to apply for Irish citizenship (her grandmother was Irish) so that she can play gigs in the EU in the future (her band will have to stay at home because they only have UK passports). Making an income from original music is very difficult these days. Edited January 7 by gjones 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 University cities will be full of people playing music. Either music students or just general students, and a good smattering of lecturers. And they won't be full time musicians. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 16 minutes ago, Rosie C said: Maybe I'm just too old, but for me loud volume is killing live music. We were at a pub last weekend, just for a beer. There was a band setting up and we would have stayed, but they were SO LOUD. The drummer was wearing industrial ear protectors... I agree. The volume thing has gone crazy. It always surprises me how many audiences put up with it. I play with a couple of blues rock trios and my amp for those gigs has more watts than my first 3 bands put together. I'm also using industrial strength hearing protection when playing with those guys. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 10 minutes ago, gjones said: She can't play in the EU any more due to the visa restrictions and legal hurdles Brexit created, Many EU countries have exemptions for artists. Check the Musicains Union. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 2 hours ago, TimR said: I'm not sure this is true. It's very difficult to keep a vehicle running for less than £400 a month. However you slice that pie, £5k a year seems to be about the rate money disappears on any vehicle I've ever owned. Insurance, tax, MOT, servicing, repairs, depreciation etc. I agree that £5k a year is about right for the total running cost of a vehicle. It's about what I spend. The original point that I disagreed with was that one can't buy a decent vehicle for less than £5k. My present car cost me £2300 four years ago. It's 20 years old now, not a wreck by any means and is large enough to carry me, my bass rig and PA easily. It's a bit thirsty, but I service it myself and carry out minor repairs that don't require specialist equipment or a hoist, which saves money. I've always done so. When I started driving, the only way to motor on a tight budget was to buy a banger and do your own maintenance. Many these days are unwilling to pick up a spanner. 2 hours ago, TimR said: Yes. I used to gig in the 80s with a 100w vocal PA where the vocals were just about audible above the drums. My bass amp was 100w combo. We now gig with a 2x250w PA and my bass amp is 500W. Not that we don't play appropriate volumes for the venue, but many bands have that kind of power and don't. Agreed again. My current PA is 2x750W and I have a 700W bass amp. I certainly didn't start out with that. I had the obligatory HH 100W PA amp and a 100W bass amp. By the standards of today, it was crap, but it did the job and got me going. Since then, I've gradually upgraded to what I have now. Fair enough, really. There has to be some reward for working for 50 odd years. 2 hours ago, chris_b said: The volume thing has gone crazy. It always surprises me how many audiences put up with it. A lot won't, which is one of the reasons many music venues are half empty. Why would people stick around to hear terrible stuff at ear-bleeding volumes? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Yep, I’ve seen bands empty rooms due to the volume they play at. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) You might want to read this. As someone who works full-time in music and with young people setting out on their music careers, I'd argue there's never been a better time. True, the cost of living crisis is impacting a lot of people. However, gone are the days when you needed a record contract or a huge budget behind you to record albums or singles. All you need nowadays is a smartphone and some creativity. Youngsters are also pretty adept at marketing themselves using social media. https://www.ukmusic.org/news/new-report-reveals-music-industry-delivers-4bn-exports-boost-to-uk-economy/ Edited January 7 by ambient 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubbybloke68 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 5 hours ago, la bam said: Just having a think... mainly due to the dire situation current pop music is in.. The cost of living at the moment is crazy. How youngsters are supposed to own a vehicle or home, or even rent is beyond me. Being a musician has always been seen as hard graft, being in an originals band trying to 'make it' was always fought with little money and being difficult to make ends meet. But, with a bit of luck it was possible. But now.... How are bands supposed to make it or even try when even renting a flat is astronomical, hotels and b and bs cost a fortune, you can't buy a decent van for under 5 grand, tax and insurance will be the same, and then there's fuel and food???! Most will be forced into a job before even being able to give it a go. The only ones I can see having half a chance are bedroom producers on their laptops. I can't see genuine real bands having a chance at all. Is new music and new bands strictly a rich kids game going forward? I always had to work even when I was in a band years ago trying to ‘make it’Itwas a real struggle back then but when you’re young and hungry you can burn the candle at both ends! Obviously didn’t work for me of course 🤣 but it was bloody hard going and I don’t think it was ‘easier’ back then by any stretch. Not all of ‘em of course, but an awful lot of musicians that seem to make it do come from very comfortable backgrounds, but they don’t like advertising the fact.You can’t deny some of their talent, but being able to doss about and devote time to nurturing that talent without having to graft ya balls off all hours god made does help quite a lot. Having money in the family or well off parents that are willing to finance you and having no pressure to earn x amount every week must be very liberating. Definitely just as hard back then in my humble opinion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Taking music out of school curriculum was always going to isolate plenty that can’t afford to learn privately. I was fortunate that my parents were willing/ able to spend loads on private music education until I got to the point I could earn my own money (paper round ect), but I know I was very lucky. Also my schools encouraged music all the way through my education. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SumOne Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 ^^^ Music is still on the curriculum. "Music forms part of the national curriculum from key stage one to key stage three. This means all maintained schools must teach music from the ages of five to 14." (and past that, can do it as GCSE) https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/access-to-music-education-in-schools/#:~:text=Music forms part of the national curriculum from key stage,ages of five to 14. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassfinger Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 My Daughter's music teacher is called Mr Starr. I expect he's heard all the jokes. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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