peteb Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) It is funny how a thread about the difficulties of being a musician these days has been de-railed into quite an informed debate about the housing market! It just goes to show how significant the issue of housing is to virtually every aspect of life in the UK! The short answer to the OP is that, yes, the cost of living is having a negative impact on music (or at least people wanting to ‘make it’ in bands) in this country. I used to work backstage at a big blues festival with a lot of pro musicians playing in the various acts over the weekend. It became increasingly obvious that the younger pros were rich kids who had been to music college, whereas the older ones came from all kinds of backgrounds. This is nothing against the younger guys, who were generally good players and nice people, but it seems that the middle class or poorer kids are being frozen out / discouraged from becoming a pro muso. However, the main problem is the change in demand for popular music. When I was a kid, entertainment was movies, football or rock/pop music. These days, there is a lot more choice and of course, music’s place in society has changed. Streaming has led to less income for musicians and the emphasis away from producing albums in favour of more disposable single tracks. Celebrity culture has meant that people now strive to be famous for it’s own sake, rather than fame being a side product of being a musician / actor, etc. Edited January 9 by peteb 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I remember back in the 80s it seemed that every band (from the punk/indie scene) that made it had lived together in squats. One of the reasons I decided against it, choosing to live in squalor when not needing to wasn`t for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegs07 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 23 minutes ago, TimR said: It's the algorithms of social media that determine what you are exposed to. If you don't actively look for new music, the algorithms will just serve you up what it thinks you like. There's tons of new music out there,it does get more difficult to wade through the nonsense. I don’t use social media. I just have fairly eclectic tastes in music so whatever algorithms spotify uses do a decent job in introducing me to bands all over the planet in many diverse genres that I would unlikely have heard of without it. Fairly niche artists that may have struggled to get 5 people in their local town to listen to them may suddenly find an audience of thousands. True there is little money going to them (unless they tour and then I will put some money in their pockets). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 8 minutes ago, peteb said: kids who had been to music college, whereas the older ones came from all kinds of backgrounds. All kids go to college now. Very few go straight from school to work. I play in an annual jam night where we have loads of musicians from the area come to play. The youngsters don't 'jam'. They come with preformed bands and arranged music. The art of jamming to a bunch of chords is getting lost. I put a lot of this down to 'modern' music being over produced, and we see it a lot on threads here where people in cover bands want to recreate the original with high accuracy rather than get the format and chord structure down and just make music. I did play with one 'young' girl who called the chords and the drummer and I followed along to a bunch of fairly modern pop songs. But that was the exception. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asingardenof Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Just now, TimR said: All kids go to college now. Very few go straight from school to work. Apprentices will do both. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 7 minutes ago, TimR said: All kids go to college now. Very few go straight from school to work. But how many kids from modest backgrounds go to music college? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SumOne Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) It doesn't seem like most rappers or Afrobeat or Dance music artists are from rich backgrounds or necessarily need loads of expensive equipment, but the charts are full of their music and festivals and clubs are busy with them performing to keen young audiences.... Not 'proper' music unless it's got a Bass player and the band tour arond in an old Transit van though eh?! Get off my lawn! Edited January 9 by SumOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 13 hours ago, Silvia Bluejay said: Let this post of mine be the last that mentions politics in this thread, please. Why? There is no escaping from the fact that housing supply/availability is very much a political issue. Why tiptoe around the proverbial elephant in the room? If you do, there is no prospect of meaningful discussion. 3 hours ago, TimR said: Nobody buys £1m homes as their first house. The people who live in them didn't pay £1m for them. I'd suggest most people move up the ladder using inherited money along with equity they have in their previous property. My peers in their 50s bought their first houses in the mid to late 90s for around £120-150k and spent a lot of time and energy doing them up and moving up the ladder as they went. A big 'problem' on London is active retired people 'blocking', living in properties they can just about afford the rates on and who have no reason to be living in 3 and 4 bedroom houses. Ideally they should be the ones buying second homes and living off rental from their 1st property. Which I suspect is the case and a lot of these 'evil landlords' are just people trying not to lose money. Much truth in this. The last London house I lived in was worth serious money, but it certainly wasn't the first property I owned. I and my partner started out in a modest place in a run-down area, did some work on it, sold and moved up slightly, rinse and repeat. I moved out of London after retirement for the reason stated - I didn't want to be rattling around in a large place after my partner passed and had always fancied living in the country. 11 hours ago, tauzero said: You start by confiscating the empty homes, at least the long-term ones Good luck with that. Apart from the fact that any government that confiscated peoples' lawfully owned assets would be committing political suicide, establishing a precedent (even if it were possible) that enabled the state to do so would be the start of a slippery and dangerous slope. How long before a government used the power for political reasons, say be sequestering assets of those it didn't like? You need to think through the consequences before merrily proposing such draconian actions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 11 minutes ago, Dan Dare said: Good luck with that. Apart from the fact that any government that confiscated peoples' lawfully owned assets would be committing political suicide, establishing a precedent (even if it were possible) that enabled the state to do so would be the start of a slippery and dangerous slope. How long before a government used the power for political reasons, say be sequestering assets of those it didn't like? You need to think through the consequences before merrily proposing such draconian actions. Yep, look at the current Post Office scandal and multiply that outrage several times should any government confiscate assets of any kind because it suited them let alone it being accommodation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Just now, Dan Dare said: ...Good luck with that. Doesn't this already happen, when projects need land for motorways, airports, high-speed rail links and more..? Presumably some kind of compensation is offered; it's not a new concept at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 On 07/01/2024 at 11:20, Bolo said: Was it much different in the late 70s-early 80s? This. Hard times don’t stifle creativity they drive it. Looking at the last 20 years ir so of economic stability and the music it produced……. Need I say more 😕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 21 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: Doesn't this already happen, when projects need land for motorways, airports, high-speed rail links and more..? Presumably some kind of compensation is offered; it's not a new concept at all. Compulsory purchase. Usually at market value plus some compensation. I belive the option to do something simlar is also available to councils if people buy land to develop and fail to develop with 5 years. But it's costly and to what benefit? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Beedster said: This. Hard times don’t stifle creativity they drive it. Looking at the last 20 years ir so of economic stability and the music it produced……. Need I say more 😕 And as I said in a previous post those genuinely driven to create will find ways to do it irrespective of circumstances. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SumOne Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) How many people under the age of 30 have commented on this thread? I can't speak for them either, but I don't think many young people want to be in bands that are basically using the same music formula that their parents and grandparents used (Bass, Guitar, Drums, Singer - promote by travelling around to gigs in a van). Technology and society and popular music has moved on - they don't expect to make a lot of money from selling an album, plenty don't even do albums, but will be quite focussed on getting a lot of Spotify streams and Instagram and Tik Tok followers and getting to a level where they are sponsored to endorse things, that is where the audience and fame and money is and they know it. It's potentially a great time for music where most 16 year olds can now access a cheap computer to make music and record their vocals and a use a phone to record videos and self-release and market their stuff to a global audience. It's just different to how their parents and grandparents did it. Older people writing off music like rap and Electronic music as they are not using the same formula as they did must be quite similar to how parents reacted to rock n roll. Edited January 9 by SumOne 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 On 07/01/2024 at 18:15, TimR said: I had a car for 2 months recently. My insurance alone was over £50 a month. The VED - £15 a month. MoTs are close on £50 a year now. An oil and filter change, even if you do it yourself is going to be close on £200 a year. Then you are losing money on depreciation that you need to put away into savings ready to buy your next car. I really don't think people realise how much they're spending on their cars. It's one of those slow drip things. HMRCC allow 45p a mile for a reason. I feel sorry for young drivers now, a mate is looking for insurance for his lad and quotes are around £2.5k with a black box. A small economical car will be cheaper to run (my little diesel MPV van is around £30 a year VED and gets in excess of 50mpg) but that insurance is crippling. It's a no win as if they want a cheaper car it's either something with crazy mileage (and likely an uneconomical repair somewhere down the line) or will be too big and expensive to insure and will drink fuel. It's a world away from when I was young (42 now so not a million years ago!) and you could just pick up a small car for very little money, loads of people I know were running £100-£200 cars or just got given one by relatives which lasted them a few years. Our first van was given to us by a friend of the band, needed a new clutch and it lasted years, we ran it on Chef's Pride cooking oil from Morrisons and used to fill it up in the car park. Funnily enough I've just had my oil and air filters replaced today and a few other little bits and bobs, cost me £135.63, I'm not using Chef's Pride in it before anybody asks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, SumOne said: How many people under the age of 30 have commented on this thread? I can't speak for them either, but I don't think many young people want to be in bands that are basically using the same music formula that their parents and grandparents used (Bass, Guitar, Drums, Singer - promote by travelling around to gigs in a van). Technology and society and popular music has moved on - they don't expect to make a lot of money from selling an album, plenty don't even do albums, but will be quite focussed on getting a lot of Spotify streams and Instagram and Tik Tok followers and getting to a level where they are sponsored to endorse things, that is where the audience and fame and money is and they know it. It's potentially a great time for music where most 16 year olds can now access a cheap computer to make music and record their vocals and a use a phone to record videos and self-release and market their stuff to a global audience. It's just different to how their parents and grandparents did it. Older people writing off music like rap and Electronic music as they are not using the same formula as they did must be quite similar to how parents reacted to rock n roll. Exactly. The difficulties of making a living as a musician are not just because of effects of the cost of living (although that still does have an effect, for both the would-be musician and the punter), but because of the changes in demand for popular music. This is because of new things apart from music that have got the attention of the potential market (video games, social media, etc), as well as new types of music that don't require the traditional bands that most people here are used to. The last British band to become massive after slogging around the clubs and small venues was probably Oasis, which was 25 plus years ago! Don't get me wrong, there is still a demand for bands playing music in this country (and certainly throughout Europe), but this demand is nothing like it used to be. I was talking to a couple of twenty somethings at a party over the weekend and they still love music made by guitar led bands, but they are not in the majority anymore. Rock music is going the way of jazz, appealing to a smaller niche of followers. I think that rock will maintain more appeal than jazz did, but it won't be the dominant force in the mainstream anymore. Edited January 9 by peteb 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) Strangely enough, I'm an old duffer, but have been asked to play bass in an originals group made up of guys who are under 30. And one of the bands I saw at the Jam night were all early 20s. Once you start following these bands you quickly see how many other musicians are using traditional instrumentation. I was also asked to record bass for a young solo singer songwriter who had written keys, strings and programmed the drums but couldn't "get the bass to sound like a real bass". All done in garageband in their bedroom. I recorded the bass into an iPad while cooking dinner in my kitchen. Edited January 9 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 47 minutes ago, SumOne said: How many people under the age of 30 have commented on this thread? I can't speak for them either, but I don't think many young people want to be in bands that are basically using the same music formula that their parents and grandparents used (Bass, Guitar, Drums, Singer - promote by travelling around to gigs in a van). Technology and society and popular music has moved on - they don't expect to make a lot of money from selling an album, plenty don't even do albums, but will be quite focussed on getting a lot of Spotify streams and Instagram and Tik Tok followers and getting to a level where they are sponsored to endorse things, that is where the audience and fame and money is and they know it. It's potentially a great time for music where most 16 year olds can now access a cheap computer to make music and record their vocals and a use a phone to record videos and self-release and market their stuff to a global audience. It's just different to how their parents and grandparents did it. Older people writing off music like rap and Electronic music as they are not using the same formula as they did must be quite similar to how parents reacted to rock n roll. Very true! The one surprise to me came at a recent corporate gig with a younger audience than we're normally in front of (mostly 21 to 23 y/o's). I was concerned how relevant our set list was going to be for them, but they really seemed to love it and I was actually a bit shocked that the song requests from the floor, given their ages, was for more Blondie, ABBA and Queen! And they seemed to know all the words as well as we did! LA Mixtrax (@lamixtrax) • Instagram photos and videos Maybe we, and the great tunes of the 60s to '00s, aren't quite as obsolete as we might be fearing just yet? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 minute ago, Al Krow said: Very true! The one surprise to me came at a recent corporate gig with a younger audience than we're normally in front of (mostly 21 to 23 y/o's). I was concerned how relevant our set list was going to be for them, but they really seemed to love it and I was actually a bit shocked that the song requests from the floor, given their ages, was for more Blondie, ABBA and Queen! And they seemed to know all the words as well as we did! LA Mixtrax (@lamixtrax) • Instagram photos and videos Maybe we, and the great tunes of the 60s to '00s, aren't quite as obsolete as we might be fearing just yet? My daughter is 13 and loves Abba, Queen and Bowie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 4 hours ago, Dan Dare said: Good luck with that. Apart from the fact that any government that confiscated peoples' lawfully owned assets would be committing political suicide, establishing a precedent (even if it were possible) that enabled the state to do so would be the start of a slippery and dangerous slope. How long before a government used the power for political reasons, say be sequestering assets of those it didn't like? You need to think through the consequences before merrily proposing such draconian actions. Admittedly confiscation is a bit extreme (I just thought I'd use a bit of hyperbole), but some form of compulsory purchase should be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hill76 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 4 hours ago, Dan Dare said: Good luck with that. Apart from the fact that any government that confiscated peoples' lawfully owned assets would be committing political suicide, establishing a precedent (even if it were possible) that enabled the state to do so would be the start of a slippery and dangerous slope. How long before a government used the power for political reasons, say be sequestering assets of those it didn't like? You need to think through the consequences before merrily proposing such draconian actions. Councils can already seize empty homes, although they now have to wait 2 years instead of the original 6 months. That doesn't mean they do, just that they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2elliot Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 On 07/01/2024 at 18:15, TimR said: I had a car for 2 months recently. My insurance alone was over £50 a month. The VED - £15 a month. MoTs are close on £50 a year now. An oil and filter change, even if you do it yourself is going to be close on £200 a year. Then you are losing money on depreciation that you need to put away into savings ready to buy your next car. I really don't think people realise how much they're spending on their cars. It's one of those slow drip things. HMRCC allow 45p a mile for a reason. Oil change £200... What were you driving, a V12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 38 minutes ago, 2elliot said: Oil change £200... What were you driving, a V12? Lemmywinks has just spent £135 on one service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2elliot Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 14 minutes ago, TimR said: Lemmywinks has just spent £135 on one service. It's a service. I don't see the issue, thats only £11.25 monthly? Bargain if it's a V12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I think it started really with X Factor, but now especially with social media, people can get quick and easy popularity. Rather than spending time learning a craft, it does seem that today’s kids are bored if they don’t get the reward within 10 minutes. It’s also a quick win for the banks that fund record labels. Not a cost of living issue, but there’s undeniably an attitude difference between generations - speaking in general terms. If this keeps up, I’m not sure how the quality of our music will improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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