Help! Silks over nut on DB

[Beedster]

I have a very long 4/4 DB and a rather nice set of strings I'm dying to use on it, but they are about a centimetre too short at the nut, that is the silks on the D and A strings run around 1cm across the nut. I've had this same situation on electric bass before and it made very little difference, but I have three questions re doing it on DB

 

1. Apart from the open strings (which I rarely play anyway) will this adversely affect tone/sustain on fingered notes on those two strings

2. Might I run into problems associated with too short a winding on the tuning peg?

3. Is there any chance I could damage the strings?

 

Thanks in advance folks

 

Chris

[Happy Jack]

If you're just 1cm short on the nut, I'd be astonished if that left you light on the windings.

 

Don't see how sustain on a fingered note could be affected by what's happening above the finger.

[Beedster]

37 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

If you're just 1cm short on the nut, I'd be astonished if that left you light on the windings.

Thanks Jack, the silks on the strings on there at present start pretty much at the tuner itself so quite a difference in length. I think I may have to suck it and see......

[SubsonicSimpleton]

you could use a loop of gut, dyneema or steel rope through each of the holes in the tailpiece to allow the ball ends to be nearer the bridge.

 

If the strings in question were spiros I'd be tempted to just have at it, but if this the set of eudoxa you have advertised for sale, I wouldn't be quite so confident that the windings/core won't separate or damage each other (you'd need to look very carefully at exactly where the windings end under the silks to figure out whether you will be winding any of the outer winding onto the pegs or simply tensioning the core using the peg while the winding gets hungup by friction on the nut).

[chrkelly]

Are they 3/4 Thomastiks? It shouldn't be a problem with the 4/4's or Pirastros unless there's some setup issue below the bridge, such as the tailpiece position/size. 

[Beedster]

Thanks folks, good advice. They're a Eudoxa 3/4 set. When I bought them I was under the impression that like many Pirastro strings, 3/4 strings generally served 4/4 instruments (and IIRC Caswell's didn't offer a 4/4 option). I bought them for a 3/4 instrument that on reflection soon afterwards was working very well with the Evahs I'd experimented with. I suspect the 4/4 will sing with them but not 100% convinced IO should risk it hence the thread

[chrkelly]

Don't risk it as is, could be very costly. If you're dead set on trying them, get the bass to a luthier & see if you could get a longer tail wire installed to reduce the after length. 

[Beedster]

Thanks Chris, agreed re costly mistake. I pretty much built the bass about 10 years back so it's easy for me to install a longer tail wire, I also have a longer tail piece that might help further. Longer tailwire and tailpiece - and therefore shorter distance between tailpiece and bridge - will affect tone, what's your thinking on the likely difference? Thanks for your help. Chris

[JoeEvans]

I'm wondering whether having the silks running over the nut would affect smooth tuning - with extra friction over the nut, would you maintain equal string tension on each side?

A loop of 2mm Dyneema between the tailpiece and the string might be one of those quick, temporary solutions that turn out to last for years. I actually got rid of my tailpiece altogether and used a longer loop of Dyneema going round the endpin for each string - it improved the tone noticeably, although it was a very thick, heavy tailpiece, so possibly a lighter tailpiece would have generated the same improvement... You do need to use the right knot with Dyneema though, a water knot is good but there are other options too.

[Beedster]

6 hours ago, JoeEvans said:

I'm wondering whether having the silks running over the nut would affect smooth tuning - with extra friction over the nut, would you maintain equal string tension on each side?

A loop of 2mm Dyneema between the tailpiece and the string might be one of those quick, temporary solutions that turn out to last for years. I actually got rid of my tailpiece altogether and used a longer loop of Dyneema going round the endpin for each string - it improved the tone noticeably, although it was a very thick, heavy tailpiece, so possibly a lighter tailpiece would have generated the same improvement... You do need to use the right knot with Dyneema though, a water knot is good but there are other options too.

That's a really interesting post @JoeEvans, I'm going to look into a few of the ideas in there, thanks 👍

[Beedster]

20 hours ago, chrkelly said:

Don't risk it as is, could be very costly. If you're dead set on trying them, get the bass to a luthier & see if you could get a longer tail wire installed to reduce the after length. 

 

Thanks @chrkelly, I've just looked at some of the thoughts on afterlength modification on TalkBass. Wow, that is the Double Bass rabbit hole to end all Double Bass rabbit holes, but it does at least appear that a bit of trial and error is probably not too risky 👍

[JoeEvans]

@Beedster pics of the Dyneema tailpiece replacement here:

 

It's been in place for a year now with no problems - the bass went a bit flat for the first month as the cords stretched a bit, then it settled and it's now very stable.

[Beedster]

Thanks @JoeEvans, very creative. What does that do to the afterlength, do the cords effectively add to vibrating string afterlength, replace the tailpiece, or fall somewhere between the two?

[JoeEvans]

@Beedster goodness knows... I looked into the whole after length issue when I was doing it, but there is, to say the least, some diversity of opinion on what's desirable, and very little hard information. So I set the loop lengths just to make sure the washers didn't rattle against each other, and otherwise didn't worry too much.

In practice I feel like it made the bass slightly more responsive to light touches and maybe a slightly richer tone. I think it's to do with reducing vibrating weight so that the strings are less damped.

[Beedster]

9 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

@Beedster goodness knows... I looked into the whole after length issue when I was doing it, but there is, to say the least, some diversity of opinion on what's desirable, and very little hard information. So I set the loop lengths just to make sure the washers didn't rattle against each other, and otherwise didn't worry too much.

In practice I feel like it made the bass slightly more responsive to light touches and maybe a slightly richer tone. I think it's to do with reducing vibrating weight so that the strings are less damped.

Ha ha, ‘some diversity’ of opinion is an understatement! In the grand scheme - wood, bridge, soundpost, strings - even if a factor I imagine it’s quite low down the list so I’m going to do some experimentation 👍

[NickA]

No-one else suggested this, so I'm Im probs talking out my derrière, but I don't think the string winding changes as soon as the silk starts. I'd give it a go and maybe even trim back the silks with a razor blade.  Looks aside, the silks being over the nut may not matter.

 

Still think eudoxas are lovely for bowed chamber music ( used to use them on my cello) but expense, delicacy, longevity and tuning stability have sent me back to synthetics.  Rather dead for pizz anyway surely.

[imlf999]

I play on Eudoxa and when you first fit a new string the silk's about 3cm over the nut onto the fingerboard. They stretch and then eventually the silk will be in the peg box, 2-4 days in my experience. Normal.

[NickA]

14 hours ago, imlf999 said:

I play on Eudoxa and when you first fit a new string the silk's about 3cm over the nut onto the fingerboard. They stretch and then eventually the silk will be in the peg box, 2-4 days in my experience. Normal.

Never noticed that on the cello....but they are mighty stretchy and take days to settle to staying anywhere near in tune; so yes.  This is great advice.

 

Ps: what music are you playing on what bass to choose eudoxa?  Just curious.

 

[imlf999]

5 hours ago, NickA said:

Never noticed that on the cello....but they are mighty stretchy and take days to settle to staying anywhere near in tune; so yes.  This is great advice.

 

Ps: what music are you playing on what bass to choose eudoxa?  Just curious.

 

Exclusively classical, on 5-stringers. Krattenmacher and Neuner Hornsteiner. Actually I prefer Oliv G+D. Eudoxa B String is superb.

[Beedster]

23 hours ago, imlf999 said:

I play on Eudoxa and when you first fit a new string the silk's about 3cm over the nut onto the fingerboard. They stretch and then eventually the silk will be in the peg box, 2-4 days in my experience. Normal.

Many thanks, that's very reassuring 👍

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, imlf999 said:

Eudoxa B String is superb.

And I imagine not cheap 

[NickA]

But when you have one of these:

 

https://contrabass.co.uk/products/5-string-double-bass-by-neuner-hornsteiner-mittenwald-anno-1880

 

It really deserves the best.