Realist Issue?

[MikeyMcMikeMike]

Hi all,

I was playing a gig late last year and the sound engineer said there was sound coming off my DB, it was static / crackle. I checked through an amp and I couldn't really hear anything, When I recorded a sample I feel I could hear something but I do not know if this is down to the pick up or the recording / playing by myself. Is the crackle on the track normal or do I need to replace my realist? When recording there was no peaking on the interface or DAW. Any thoughts and opinions would be great.

I have attached a sound sample.

Thanks

[Beedster]

Defo something (static) on there, have you checked cables etc and perhaps tried another instrument into the same pre-amp?  

[MikeyMcMikeMike]

4 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Defo something (static) on there, have you checked cables etc and perhaps tried another instrument into the same pre-amp?  

I have tested it through amps and with different leads etc but I was thinking I was convincing myself of something that maybe wasn't there. I will do some more tests.

[Beedster]

It’s there  

[sandy_r]

7 hours ago, MikeyMcMikeMike said:

Hi all,

I was playing a gig late last year and the sound engineer said there was sound coming off my DB, it was static / crackle. I checked through an amp and I couldn't really hear anything, When I recorded a sample I feel I could hear something but I do not know if this is down to the pick up or the recording / playing by myself. Is the crackle on the track normal or do I need to replace my realist? When recording there was no peaking on the interface or DAW. Any thoughts and opinions would be great.

I have attached a sound sample.

 

hi, i can't see any obvious extraneous impulse noise (static/crackling) in the waveform - there is a slight sound (zoomed in) near the start of the repeat of the plucked phrase (...could just be string/finger noise?) 

 

 

there are 2 instances (+possible 3rd, dotted) of what sounds like signal overload (mike? recording level?) at the end of each bowed phrase

 

the audio signal there looks a bit asymmetrical about the 0 line (+ve peaks have greater |abs| value than -ve) - not sure if thats relevant (if mic/recording chain uses batteries, might be worth checking if they need replacing?)

 

[Late Edit:] repeat listening later, i revise my comments - the noise in the plucked phrases seems more evident in the 1st, 4th and 6th note of the 1st phrase (but more acoustic than static/crackle - ie. more like a faint rattle), and i'd say now that only the final note in the 2nd bowed phrase seems to have some signal overload type noise

 

hope this helps!

 

Edited January 7 by sandy_r

[MikeyMcMikeMike]

15 hours ago, sandy_r said:

 

hi, i can't see any obvious extraneous impulse noise (static/crackling) in the waveform - there is a slight sound (zoomed in) near the start of the repeat of the plucked phrase (...could just be string/finger noise?) 

 

 

there are 2 instances (+possible 3rd, dotted) of what sounds like signal overload (mike? recording level?) at the end of each bowed phrase

 

the audio signal there looks a bit asymmetrical about the 0 line (+ve peaks have greater |abs| value than -ve) - not sure if thats relevant (if mic/recording chain uses batteries, might be worth checking if they need replacing?)

 

[Late Edit:] repeat listening later, i revise my comments - the noise in the plucked phrases seems more evident in the 1st, 4th and 6th note of the 1st phrase (but more acoustic than static/crackle - ie. more like a faint rattle), and i'd say now that only the final note in the 2nd bowed phrase seems to have some signal overload type noise

 

hope this helps!

 

Thanks for the reply, you agree that there is an issue with the realist? I am going to do a few more tests later which I will upload.

[Beedster]

15 hours ago, sandy_r said:

 

hi, i can't see any obvious extraneous impulse noise (static/crackling) in the waveform - there is a slight sound (zoomed in) near the start of the repeat of the plucked phrase (...could just be string/finger noise?) 

 

 

there are 2 instances (+possible 3rd, dotted) of what sounds like signal overload (mike? recording level?) at the end of each bowed phrase

 

the audio signal there looks a bit asymmetrical about the 0 line (+ve peaks have greater |abs| value than -ve) - not sure if thats relevant (if mic/recording chain uses batteries, might be worth checking if they need replacing?)

 

[Late Edit:] repeat listening later, i revise my comments - the noise in the plucked phrases seems more evident in the 1st, 4th and 6th note of the 1st phrase (but more acoustic than static/crackle - ie. more like a faint rattle), and i'd say now that only the final note in the 2nd bowed phrase seems to have some signal overload type noise

 

hope this helps!

 

 

That's a proper reply! Ears are good, but a waveforms is about as good as it gets 👍

[sandy_r]

13 minutes ago, MikeyMcMikeMike said:

Thanks for the reply, you agree that there is an issue with the realist? I am going to do a few more tests later which I will upload.

 

The noise in the 1st 2 phrases is very faint - hard to identify the nature of the cause.  It seems to occur on some notes and not others, as if a resonance - could it be a positioning/mounting issue?

 

The apparent signal overload at the end may be unrelated - is there a preamp between sensor and Amp?  The Gain or Volume may need winding back slightly, if the overload isn't related to the possible 'resonance'

 

[Beedster]

24 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

The noise in the 1st 2 phrases is very faint - hard to identify the nature of the cause.  It seems to occur on some notes and not others, as if a resonance - could it be a positioning/mounting issue?

 

The apparent signal overload at the end may be unrelated - is there a preamp between sensor and Amp?  The Gain or Volume may need winding back slightly, if the overload isn't related to the possible 'resonance'

 

 

Agree 100%, no need to replace the unit, noise is there but minor, so check all other options first. As @sandy_r says could be as simple as mechanical (positioning) or excessive gain. If you're anything like me, the main problem is that once you've heard something you don;t like it gets progressively louder  

[MikeyMcMikeMike]

@sandy_r @Beedster

Thank you so much for your replies. I took a short time this afternoon and recorded some more examples. I bowed and plucked, I also swapped out leads and inputs on the interface. There was no peaking on either the interface or on Logic. Excuse the dodgy intonation. 

 

So I recorded

1 - DI - so the chain here was Realist to DI (Neve RNDI) to Interface (SSL 2+) to Logic 

 

 

2 - Line In - Realist to Interface to Logic

 

 

3 - Mic - Realist to Fender Amp to Beyer Dynamic M88 TG to Interface

 

 

4 - Rode N1 Condensor Mic (for reference)

 

 

Unfortunately there is a lot of noise on all of the tracks except for track four.

Any thoughts?

[sandy_r]

2 hours ago, MikeyMcMikeMike said:

@sandy_r @Beedster

.... There was no peaking on either the interface or on Logic. ...

So I recorded

1 - DI - so the chain here was Realist to DI (Neve RNDI) to Interface (SSL 2+) to Logic 

2 - Line In - Realist to Interface to Logic

3 - Mic - Realist to Fender Amp to Beyer Dynamic M88 TG to Interface

4 - Rode N1 Condensor Mic (for reference)

Unfortunately there is a lot of noise on all of the tracks except for track four.

Any thoughts?

 

hi Mikey

thanks for the further samples - yes, there is more noise on the 1st 3 clips (and more than in the OP, too) and it sounds like the same over-driven noise from the OP, not the more acoustic 'resonant' noise - it's occuring on the higher-level, lower-frequency notes

 

on the SSL, which switches are selected and what gain & monitor level setting?

 

do you have a different preamp/interface (with high-Z/impedance input) from which you could record a clip, for comparison? (ie. no SSL, just Realist to Pre#2 to Logic)

 

thanks

sandy

 

[Edit #1: its possible for signal overdrive to occur and be heard, but not picked up on a graphic level display, depending on filter time-constants ...you would hope this isn't the case with SSL gear!]

 

[Edit #2: i don't think it is overdrive - you can hear it throughout the whole envelope of the 1st plucked note, also within the 2nd & 3rd, and in their octaves - that seems more resonant-related - could the Realist cable and/or jack be vibrating against something, however slightly, or taut?]

 

Edited January 8 by sandy_r

[Paddy Morris]

These sound like we electro-mechanical noises to me.  If they were to do with clipping at the front end of a preamp, they would have more pronounced HF component.

 

The piezo sensors on Realists don't last forever, because over time the massive pressure of the bridge foot down onto the pickup crushes them.  Someone gave me one to fix a few months ago and, after trying all the things you are trying now, I gave up and he had a fishman fitted.

 

I hope I'm wrong and you get it working.  By the way, that's a lovely arco tone on your Røde recording.  I think you deserve a better pickup.

[sandy_r]

33 minutes ago, Paddy Morris said:

The piezo sensors on Realists don't last forever, because over time the massive pressure of the bridge foot down onto the pickup crushes them.  Someone gave me one to fix a few months ago and, after trying all the things you are trying now, I gave up and he had a fishman fitted..

 

Agreed, I feel the weight of evidence is pointing to the sensor. Due to the nature of piezo sensors, however, extraneous mechanical vibration can cause electric signal, so it's preferable to check for an external cause of noise first and avoid discarding the Realist unnecessarily

 

There are also a lot of variables in these 3 noisy recordings and the 2 stages in common are the Realist and the SSL, so again we ought to confirm that we can discount an SSL setting before buying a new sensor

 

...just trying to avoid unnecessary expense for Mikey by confirming things which can be tested freely - i hope this makes sense

 

[MikeyMcMikeMike]

@sandy_r @Paddy Morris

Thanks again for your replies and the kind words. It is the pick up as I feared. So I dug out my old Behringer UMC 202 and did the same tests, again mixing up leads and inputs, made sure there was no peaking on either the interface or logic and there is still crackle. New pick up required then? I have attached a Condenser mic track for reference again. Let me know your thoughts? Do you both use Realists? 

 

DI - the chain here was Realist to DI (Neve RNDI) to Interface (Behringer UMC 202) to Logic 

 

Line In - Realist to Interface to Logic

 

Mic - Realist to Fender Amp to Beyer Dynamic M88 TG to Interface

 

Condenser - Rode N1 Condensor Mic (for reference)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, MikeyMcMikeMike said:

...

Thanks again for your replies and the kind words. It is the pick up as I feared. So I dug out my old Behringer UMC 202 and did the same tests, again mixing up leads and inputs, made sure there was no peaking on either the interface or logic and there is still crackle. New pick up required then? I have attached a Condenser mic track for reference again. Let me know your thoughts? Do you both use Realists? 

...

 

Yes, i think this test confirms it - you're playing more gently and still the noise (i think we can call it out as distortion now) is occuring. Most noticable in the Line In clip, hardly noticable in the DI clip, and i couldn't hear it in the Amp to Mic clip

 

I'll let Paddy comment too, but i have to agree sadly that it appears that the Realist has degraded and needs replacing

 

i play a travel bass as an EUB - it uses 2 electret mics in the bridge to give a nice woody, acoustic sound - the instrument is not as nice as a DB sound, but the nearest i've found apart from my uBass.  I'm familiar with piezo elements through using them in oscillator circuitry and as audio sensors in sound-trigger circuitry

 

i hope you find a reliable replacement for the Realist and achieve a suitably rich tone worthy of the instrument

 

Edited January 9 by sandy_r

[Paddy Morris]

Unfortunately, yours sounds exactly like the one I had that was broken.  Sorry to say it.

 

After a lot of disappointing and expensive experimentation I settled on a yamahiko (Japanese Fishman-type) and an Ischell C3 contact mic.  Between the 2 of them you get the character of the instrument.

 

If I were going for just one then I'd recommend the Ischell for you, because one of the mounting options gives you a 'realist' sort of less bright sound.  

 

Or just get another Realist, with a view to renewing it every so often.

[3below]

Help is here (you may get lucky).  https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/467506-fixing-faulty-realist-pickups/

 

[Paddy Morris]

Nice.  What a great thread.

[sandy_r]

6 hours ago, 3below said:

Help is here (you may get lucky).  https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/467506-fixing-faulty-realist-pickups/

 

 

Hi, that looks like a very useful approach to try on a Realist sensor with connectivity issues between piezo layer and electrode(s)

 

The Realist 'dot' construction sounds a little similar to the Takamine Palathetic pickup, as used in their TB10, which uses a series of piezo elements each connected by short metal rods pressed into contact in a hybrid saddle-bridge pickup, giving the TB10 a sound very close to a DB

 

 

Your symptom list mentions "intermittent, low or no output at all". The symptoms here seem to be presenting more as a resonant distortion/noise - does that fit with your experience of Realist issues addressed by this method?

 

Edited January 10 by sandy_r

[3below]

My experience came from my own being intermittent.  Eventually I took the 'nothing to lose here' approach and took it apart which eventually resulted in my understanding of the construction and how to rebuild.  Subsequently I rebuilt / fixed a few for some BC members and summarised my experience in the thread quoted.  Methods 1) and 2) are non destructive and free diy, they may or may not effect a cure for @MikeyMcMikeMike.  Nothing to lose though .

 

@sandy_r You are correct in your comment about the internal construction.  It is very similar to the Takamine Palathetic pickup.  I have thought about making my own diy Realist, very little skill needed.  The biggest challenge has been finding small piezo elements at a sensible price.  They are available but are ££.

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, 3below said:

My experience came from my own being intermittent.  Eventually I took the 'nothing to lose here' approach and took it apart which eventually resulted in my understanding of the construction and how to rebuild.  Subsequently I rebuilt / fixed a few for some BC members and summarised my experience in the thread quoted.  Methods 1) and 2) are non destructive and free diy, they may or may not effect a cure for @MikeyMcMikeMike.  Nothing to lose though .

 

@sandy_r You are correct in your comment about the internal construction.  It is very similar to the Takamine Palathetic pickup.  I have thought about making my own diy Realist, very little skill needed.  The biggest challenge has been finding small piezo elements at a sensible price.  They are available but are ££.

 

thanks for the further detail

 

have any of your experiences of Realist problems included distortion/noise as in Mikey's example clips - or have they been the symptoms you mentioned:- intermittent, low or no output?

 

that's a cool idea to DIY  a Realist type pickup!  i guess the small piezo elements are produced for specialist technical applications in equipment where money is no object  😞  i was looking recently for backup sources for the electret condensor mics as used in my bridge pickup and found that they seem readily available - a DIY electret pickup would definitely be on the cards! (i was able to make a DIY preamp for my electrets)

 

i wonder if you'd be able to adapt the piezo strip that you can buy for under-saddle pickup replacement?  might several work as a DIY Realist type pickup, if connected together and each trimmed to short length?

(i've also seen thin piezo 'cable' available that supposedly you can cut to length)

 

apologies,  Mikey - starting to go OT !

 

Edited January 10 by sandy_r

[Beer of the Bass]

36 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

thanks for the further detail

 

have any of your experiences of Realist problems included distortion/noise as in Mikey's example clips - or have they been the symptoms you mentioned:- intermittent, low or no output?

 

that's a cool idea to DIY  a Realist type pickup!  i guess the small piezo elements are produced for specialist technical applications in equipment where money is no object  😞  i was looking recently for backup sources for the electret condensor mics as used in my bridge pickup and found that they seem readily available - a DIY electret pickup would definitely be on the cards! (i was able to make a DIY preamp for my electrets)

 

i wonder if you'd be able to adapt the piezo strip that you can buy for under-saddle pickup replacement?  might several work as a DIY Realist type pickup, if connected together and each trimmed to short length?

(i've also seen thin piezo 'cable' available that supposedly you can cut to length)

 

apologies,  Mikey - starting to go OT !

 

 

I dabbled with DIY piezo pickups a few years ago using piezo film elements. They sounded surprisingly good under the bridge foot, but making something neat looking and physically robust enough to last was the tricky part that I never quite cracked.

[MikeyMcMikeMike]

@sandy_r @Paddy Morris @3below

 

Thanks so much for your feedback - I am just going to bite the bullet and get a replacement. I do like the realist so I am going to stick with it but I appreciate of the suggestions and help.

[3below]

3 hours ago, sandy_r said:

have any of your experiences of Realist problems included distortion/noise as in Mikey's example clips - or have they been the symptoms you mentioned:- intermittent, low or no output?

 

i wonder if you'd be able to adapt the piezo strip that you can buy for under-saddle pickup replacement?  might several work as a DIY Realist type pickup, if connected together and each trimmed to short length?

(i've also seen thin piezo 'cable' available that supposedly you can cut to length)

 

I only dealt with non functional and low / intermittent output ones.

 

The piezo strip ideas are worth exploring, however the thickness might be an issue.  Just made me wonder about drilling suitable size holes into a bridge foot and then gluing piezo cable or rods in.... hmm..... 

 

3 hours ago, Beer of the Bass said:

 

I dabbled with DIY piezo pickups a few years ago using piezo film elements. They sounded surprisingly good under the bridge foot, but making something neat looking and physically robust enough to last was the tricky part that I never quite cracked.

 

I also played with piezo film elements, likewise making a 'professional' package was difficult.  Has got me thinking about the BC DIY DB pickup, must stop thinking, do not need any more stuff in my life!

[MJJS]

Just a thought. I had an issue much the same. I was told it’s most likely the foot of the bridge is slightly offering an angle to the top face of the bass. This means you get a slight rattle’ in the bass/bridge/pickup interaction. If you can see it’s slightly out, perhaps sort that?