Long term DB player with a noob question

[martyy]

I've played upright bass on and off for 12 years now, both gigging and in the studio. I've picked it up again recently after some years of exclusively playing electric bass, and as a result I've remembered how physically exhausting the instrument is.

 

Now for the question... I don't know any other double bass players and I've never played a bass other than the one I own. It occurred to me that maybe basses aren't supposed to be this torturous and I just have a badly set up one. The question is how can I even tell!? Electric basses have precise details about ideal setup (string height, relief etc) but not so much with uprights. 

[Burns-bass]

19 minutes ago, martyy said:

I've played upright bass on and off for 12 years now, both gigging and in the studio. I've picked it up again recently after some years of exclusively playing electric bass, and as a result I've remembered how physically exhausting the instrument is.

 

Now for the question... I don't know any other double bass players and I've never played a bass other than the one I own. It occurred to me that maybe basses aren't supposed to be this torturous and I just have a badly set up one. The question is how can I even tell!? Electric basses have precise details about ideal setup (string height, relief etc) but not so much with uprights. 

There are two forces here: string height and tension.

 

The higher the strings are, the more pressure (or pull) it takes to get a note. Some people prefer a low action but get it too low and the strings can rattle. 

 

String tension is another variable. I use low tension Spiros, but couldn’t cope with ultra low tension guts or gut-a-likes.

 

This article is good discussion about string heights. https://www.bassgearmag.com/jazz-vs-classical-vs-bluegrass-set-up/#:~:text=The traditional bluegrass set-up allows for slapping%2C as well,strings at the same height.
 

Unless you’re confident working on your bass it’s best to take it to a pro. Last set up I had, I was there when the action was set and was able to get it to a level I was happy with, and the luthier was able to advise on the quality of note and overall sound.

 

I’m very much an amateur and I’m sure you’ll get much more in-depth and helpful replies. Where are you based?

 

 

[Staggering on]

I think the best thing to do is to get a bass player or luthier to look at and play your bass, even a bassist who is not a pro will be able to tell

if it is you or your bass and you can move on from there.

The type of music you play and whether you are using a bow or playing pizz are important  things to consider as well. It would be well worth your money to get a pro set up and possibly different strings.

I am not an expert but I went through the same thing when I started upright and wasted time and energy on a bad bass. I'm sure there must be some teachers and luthiers in your area and I'm sure you will get some suggestions and contacts from others on here. 

 

Good luck!

[Downunderwonder]

If you get it set up with an adjustable bridge it is less of a big deal to set up in future. You might like an easier ride to get going and change it up again yourself down the line when your strength improves.

 

If you're doing it right most of the pressure on the string to form the note comes from the arm /shoulder pulling back not the thumb opposing the fingers. Maybe one day I'll get it.

[martyy]

I'm based in the Belfast area. A fiddle player friend of mine took the bass to a fiddle maker about 10 years ago and he took down the bridge for me which helped a little bit, but I get the impression that bass is a bit of a specialism and it would take an actual player to understand the work that would need to be done.?

 

I have always had spirocore mediums on which I understand is quite high tension. I have lights ordered but I suspect that will only have a moderate impact. I think the fingerboard has too much relief but can't be sure.

 

Maybe I just need to man up! 

[martyy]

I should say as well that I was originally playing bluegrass/country. I remember buying the bass from Thomann and telling them that at the time. Probably why they set the string height high. These days I'm more interested in soul verging on jazz I suppose.

[Burns-bass]

2 minutes ago, martyy said:

I should say as well that I was originally playing bluegrass/country. I remember buying the bass from Thomann and telling them that at the time. Probably why they set the string height high. These days I'm more interested in soul verging on jazz I suppose.

There must be a double bass luthier or two near you. Might be worth checking out some bass forums or Facebook? There’s a fairly vibrant orchestral science over there from what I can gather so there must be someone! 

 

As people have said, best to be present when they do a setup and you can get it right for you. It’s highly skilled but not exactly rocket science (bridge height, nut, etc.)

 

An adjustable bridge is a good idea but you need it low enough to start with. 
 

good luck 

 

 

[Beedster]

Double bass is tortuous and exhausting, it’s why we play it 🧐

[martyy]

1 minute ago, Beedster said:

Double bass is tortuous and exhausting, it’s why we play it 🧐

I have seen this sentiment often! I have played many gigs with my torture device, I'm in my 40s now, I just find it hard to believe it'll be possible in 20 or 30 years..

 

[Beedster]

15 minutes ago, martyy said:

I have seen this sentiment often! I have played many gigs with my torture device, I'm in my 40s now, I just find it hard to believe it'll be possible in 20 or 30 years..

 

When I gigged electric bass I had energy to spare after gigs, now on DB exclusively I have to measure my effort to make it through three-hour sets. Factors over and above those mentioned include the height of your bass - too high can fatigue your back, shoulders, and neck - as well as your posture - if you are leaning you will tire at a faster rate. Another common factor is to be too low in the mix meaning you spend the whole gig digging in to be heard which is also very tiring. There are many more. Gigging double bass is an endurance event, every percent counts 👍

[JoeEvans]

Is it primarily the left hand that you find hard work, or both hands, or the whole physical experience - shoulders, back, legs?

 

[martyy]

It's all the left hand. 

[JoeEvans]

The Weichs will definitely help.

When you're playing up near the open notes, the nut height makes more of a difference than the action. People talk about getting it so that you can just about slide a business card under the string next to the nut, but I found that the right height varied string to string. Taking the slot a little deeper - maybe only 0.5mm or 1mm on the E and A strings - made an immediately noticeable improvement in ease of playing.

I found it very important to practice playing more on the tips of the fingers of the left hand, so that the end joint of the finger is coming up and away from the fingerboard not lying flat on it. Try hooking your fingertips onto the top of a door frame and putting some weight on, and you can see straight away how much more strength your fingers have like that.

Edited January 13 by JoeEvans

[NickD]

There should be some effort involved, but it shouldn't be horrible. 

 

I have the Spiro mittels on mine, and it was hard. I was on the verge of ordering a set of weichs, but decided to book it in with Thwaites for a general MOT (as it was new to me and I wanted someone in the know to look over it), and to see if it could be made a touch easier to play. I told them the kind of music I was playing, and conversely the kind of thing I wouldn't really ever do.

 

They contacted me after a few days, said that reprofiling the bridge would do what I need. I think they charged me 80 quid... It saved me a few hundred quid over replacing the strings. It's infinitely easier to play now, still sounds strong, a bit growlier and less thumpy maybe. I'm happy with the mittels now and don't feel the need to change.

 

I'd have a chat with a pro before doing anything else. It worked for me anyway.

[martyy]

Some really helpful comments here which sent me in the direction of some basic technique videos.... Turns out I've been doing all the wrong things when it comes to left hand. I have a lot to unlearn. I have been putting my palm on the neck and squeezing/clamping the strings down all this time. Apparently that is a no-no 😃.

 

I've spent a little time trying to get it right, so far it feels even more exhausting but hopefully something will click.

 

Thanks for all the pointers folks.

 

 

[petebassist]

When I started playing DB less and wasn't keeping up the hand strength I put some Presto Nylon super lights on - they felt a bit like elastic bands tension-wise at first, but I quickly got used to them and I found I could play two 45 minute sets without getting hand-ache. Controversial I find, as some players think you have to have heavier strings to be a proper player (and they might be right ;-). 

Good luck with the playing.

 

Edited January 15 by petebassist

[Rosie C]

On 12/01/2024 at 23:06, martyy said:

I should say as well that I was originally playing bluegrass/country. I remember buying the bass from Thomann and telling them that at the time. Probably why they set the string height high. These days I'm more interested in soul verging on jazz I suppose.

 

Others must have had better experiences, but every instrument I've personally bought from Thomann needed setting up again by a local luthier.

 

On 12/01/2024 at 23:01, Downunderwonder said:

If you get it set up with an adjustable bridge it is less of a big deal to set up in future. You might like an easier ride to get going and change it up again yourself down the line when your strength improves.

 

 

+1 on getting an adjustable bridge - as well as being able to try different heights, you can fit a Realist Lifeline pickup. 

 

I play bluegrass and jazz - I'm a big fan of Innovation Rockabilly strings - a lovely dark sound and much easier on my hands than metal strings. Only suitable for pizz though.

 

[NickA]

1.  Adjustable bridge .. definitely.  I have mine high for max sensitivity when playing classical, keep it high for strength training and drop it right down for maximum mwah and minimum effort when playing jazz.

 

2.  I'm in my 60s and it's gotten easier with practice (and decent setup)

 

3.  the ONLY thing that touches the back of the bass's neck is your thumb! Squeezing your whole hand round it will make for hard work, not strengthen the right muscles and make changing position near impossible.

 

One other thing is .. don't put too much spike out.  If the neck is high above your shoulder then the blood runs from the important muscles and you lose strength;   It doesn't look very cool but having the bass quite low generally makes it easier to play.  Nut no higher than ear level so you're not reaching up above your head in half position This guy has it about right, but many classical bassists go lower.