Characterising Amps and Cabs

[Stub Mandrel]

We have lots of ways of describing the sound of different amps and cabs.

 

Dark, bright, responsive,  woolly, tight, spacious, aggressive, boomy, light,  refined...

 

It's also apparent that many brands have a 'sound'. Possibly Orange is classic UK without being heavily distorted. Trace Elliot is clean and scooped. Markbass is very clean and flat. Or not...

 

It would be interesting to try and get some easily understood interpretations of these terms, that make them easier to apply more objectively.

 

Armed with such terms , then to profile popular amps to help people visualise what they actually sound like.

 

Thoughts? Definitions?  Characterisations? Just share ideas for now, organisation might come later!

[fretmeister]

I’d never describe Mark Bass as clean and flat. It’s warm to me.

 

Eich are clean and flat to the point of sterility to my ears.

[Stub Mandrel]

13 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I’d never describe Mark Bass as clean and flat. It’s warm to me.

 

Eich are clean and flat to the point of sterility to my ears.

Makes my point!

 

To me Markbass  is, but compated to Fender Rumble/Orange Crush/Ashdown....

 

 

Wonder if we could choose opposites and then rank amps between them?

[itu]

How about this way:

- measure 10 (100) amps in an anechoic room

- use the measurements and attach suitable terms to those graphs

- publish the results and wait for comments

[tauzero]

Bright - rather trebly. Woolly - somewhat indistinct. Dark - sinister and malevolent.

[itu]

Why not (is this happening)?

 

requirements

- independent body (or some very enthusiastic person like ovnilab.com) making tests

- (big enough) anechoic room or OATS

- test equipment

 * noise generator

 * measurement mic

 * audio analyzer

- regular calibration of equipment

- lots of cabs

- lots of amps

 

We want independent tests that we could compare, but who will pay the bill? Besides, if any fanboy likes Ampeg-Boogie, BugEra, Mercedes-Benzio, or anything else, something was wrong with the test setup. Or the tests do not tell facts (that the fanboy does not like other voicings).

 

I have been sitting in a few anechoic chambers (also in one meant for radio testing), and they cost a lot. That's why outdoor testing would be a feasible option. If the results could be pretty good, and comparable instead of laboratory grade, some cheaper equipment could be OK. But again, last - and definitely not least - would be the numerous EUTs.

 

Do some tests today, and you have to repeat them every time a company modifies a unit. This also is most probably the main reason companies do not publish their results: they are expensive. They are the key to the recipies of their tone.

[Stub Mandrel]

Some amp response tests have been done at Bass Bashes, but I haven't seen any of the curves here.

[Dan Dare]

Make subjective judgments "apply more objectively"? Good luck with that.

 

All the terms quoted are used in an attempt to convey sound via words. A bit like wine tasters attempting to describe taste/flavour in print.

 

Doomed, I tell you. Doomed to failure.

[Pea Turgh]

I’d love to visit an anechoic chamber.  Also love super dead sounding spaces. 

[chris_b]

IMO all basses, amps and cabs have a sound.

 

The art is matching these components so they compliment each other, and make you sound like you want.

[Stub Mandrel]

Found this at:

 

https://www.audiophileon.com/news/how-to-describe-sound-an-audiophile-terminology-guide

 

 

Common terms and descriptions used by Audiophiles  Airy – Describes the space and openness of the product, usually associated with open-back headphones and live-sounding music.  Analytical – A term used to describe a product that produces a high level of detail about the music being played back  Balance – Usually, the tuning of the earphone.  For example, a well-balanced headphone would display the attributes of not having one particularly dominant frequency, e.g., the bass, mids, and highs are all balanced.  Bass – This is the lower-end frequency of human hearing. You can measure bass in quantity (heaviness) and quality (the clarity within the frequency).  Other bass descriptors are muddy and boomy.  Bloat – Bloat is usually present in the mid-bass.  Bright/Brightness – usually displayed in the upper frequencies or upper mids.  Brightness is a feature enjoyed by many but walks a thin line to becoming unpleasant due to the potential of treble peaking.  Congestion – Sounds overlapping each other and poor clarity.  Crisp – Clear  Dark/Darkness – Usually where the higher frequencies are less prominent.  Decay – How a sound/note/resonance fades away, i.e., the note decay was lengthy.  Depth – How far away the instrument’s spacing is from back to front.  Detail – The attention to a full reproduction with all sound/notes being audible and present.  Forward – A more intense overall presentation of the sound.  Opposite of laid back and relaxed.  Fun – A usually high-energy sound with an emphasized bass.  Harsh-  is usually used to describe the upper mid to upper frequencies when you get too much treble, which is an unpleasant quality.  Highs – The upper frequencies/ higher notes.  Imaging – The placement and position of an instrument as interpreted through a product.  Lush – A rich tone and usually with some warmth to the overall presentation.  Microphonics – Friction sound heard in a headphone/Earphone caused by the cable's movement or rubbing.  High microphonics = Bad.  Mids/Midrange – The middle frequencies (usually the main body of vocals and acoustic guitars, amongst others ((see instrument frequency chart))  Muddy – Unclear presentation of a sound, the opposite of clean/clear.  Natural – Sounds as it should, real and true to life.  Openness – Displays good width and depth in the presentation, with plenty of room in between instruments.  Punch – The impact and pop of a particular sound/frequency etc  Sibilant – The high unpleasant peaks that are usually unpleasant to the ear if too prevalent.  Signature – the overall tone/tuning of a headphone or earphone.  Descriptors can be balanced, bassy, sibilant, etc.  Soundstage – Described in 3d terms (height, width and depth)   Timbre – The tone of a note  Transparent – Similar to clarity, it is a clean, clear, open, and detailed quality.  Warm/warmth – Engaging vocals, bumped mid-bass, and a clear, lush midrange.

[Stub Mandrel]

Better descriptions here, it associates frequency ranges with many adjectives.

 

 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://michaelrasbury.org/uva/images/notesimages/describingsound.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwipxbbnjOODAxXuQEEAHWf1CgAQFnoECAQQAg&usg=AOvVaw23D_KEk0mDXYR0QPQBWawl

 

[Phil Starr]

On 14/01/2024 at 22:34, Stub Mandrel said:

Some amp response tests have been done at Bass Bashes, but I haven't seen any of the curves here.

We did put some response curves up but I can't remember where. it was a couple of years ago so I'm not promising that I'll find them. John @Chienmortbb and I did most of them but there were a couple other people had done.

[sandy_r]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

We did put some response curves up but I can't remember where. it was a couple of years ago so I'm not promising that I'll find them. John @Chienmortbb and I did most of them but there were a couple other people had done.

 

Amp response curves #1

 

Amp response curves #2

 

Edited January 17 by sandy_r

[Baloney Balderdash]

Trace Elliot amps aren't inherently scooped at all, not unless you engage the pre-shape switch (which admittedly though is what many associate with the classic Trace sound. But it definitely isn't to me).

 

Personally I love the way the old Trace Elliot amp sounds without that switch engaged, very punchy, and full but clear tone.

 

And I am one of those people who hates scooped mids.

 

With the pre-shape button engaged though it sounds like a wet fart.

 

But absolutely glorious tone, if you just leave the pre-shape switch alone.

 

Edited January 18 by Baloney Balderdash

[Stofferson]

43 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Trace Elliot amps aren't inherently scooped at all, not unless you engage the pre-shape switch (which admittedly though is what many associate with the classic Trace sound. But it definitely isn't to me).

 

Personally I love the way the old Trace Elliot amp sounds without that switch engaged, very punchy, and full but clear tone.

 

And I am one of those people who hates scooped mids.

 

With the pre-shape button engaged though it sounds like a wet fart.

 

But absolutely glorious tone, if you just leave the pre-shape switch alone.

 

Hard agree!

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Trace Elliot amps aren't inherently scooped at all, not unless you engage the pre-shape switch (which admittedly though is what many associate with the classic Trace sound. But it definitely isn't to me).

 

Personally I love the way the old Trace Elliot amp sounds without that switch engaged, very punchy, and full but clear tone.

 

And I am one of those people who hates scooped mids.

 

With the pre-shape button engaged though it sounds like a wet fart.

 

But absolutely glorious tone, if you just leave the pre-shape switch alone.

 

Yep the pre-shape def scoops out, but I always found that Trace cabs seemed to have a hi-mid spike that couldn`t be removed. I like Trace amps but cos of that spikiness never really liked their cabs that much.

[Stub Mandrel]

5 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Trace Elliot amps aren't inherently scooped at all, not unless you engage the pre-shape switch (which admittedly though is what many associate with the classic Trace sound. But it definitely isn't to me).

 

Personally I love the way the old Trace Elliot amp sounds without that switch engaged, very punchy, and full but clear tone.

 

And I am one of those people who hates scooped mids.

 

With the pre-shape button engaged though it sounds like a wet fart.

 

But absolutely glorious tone, if you just leave the pre-shape switch alone.

 

 

The Elf has a 400Hz cut with the tone controls flat (as does the Warwick Gnome), see the amp tests linked above.

 

The pre-shape tone was much loved by slappers like Mark King. It has its uses.

[neepheid]

If only ears worked like tongues, where at least you have 4/5 distinct basic tastes which everyone can broadly agree on and embellish from there.

 

Basses, amps and cabs be bassy.  Where it goes from there is entirely subjective.  Which is why I usually tell people asking for gear recommendations to just go and get/try the gear they're talking about and make their own minds up.  Sounds unhelpful, but it's more helpful than an inaccurate description of what my inaccurate ears are telling my inaccurate, prejudice and preference addled brain about what I'm hearing.

 

If you like it, you're not wrong.  You don't need your hand held to decide what your favourite colour is, do you?  I found out what I like and don't like by the tried and tested method of FAAFO.  It is perhaps inefficient, but it is a lot of fun.

Edited January 18 by neepheid

[Stub Mandrel]

OK... here are some thoughts, if anyone has Affinity Photo, you can try editing it...

 

 

 

Describe Sound.afphoto

[Stub Mandrel]

A simpler version for amps with three channel EQ might be:

BASS                   MIDDLE                TREBLE
WEIGHTY   BLOATED      HONKY     STEELY      HARSH
BASSY     PUNCHY        FAT     PRESCENCE     EDGY

TIGHT                 BALANCED               SWEET
LIGHT                 SCOOPED               MELLOW

THIN                   WEAK                  MUDDY

[paul_5]

Where does 'heft' sit in relation to all of these? Surely that's the most important.

[Stub Mandrel]

15 minutes ago, paul_5 said:

Where does 'heft' sit in relation to all of these? Surely that's the most important.

 

Heft is "BASSY     PUNCHY        FAT     PRESCENCE     EDGY" all at the same time!

[choob.squeemer]

Thanks to sandy-r for putting those links in - very interesting - I had actually taken 3 amps down 

to last years bash cos I thought they were going to be doing it again - however that didn't happen 

hope thy do it at this years bash 

 

Heft - well it seems to be analog  don't know if its something to do with chopping the wave up

then re-assembling it in the class D lightweight stuff - I use a Genz Benz shuttle 9.2 - but I also 

use an old Markbass Slim Head - the last one they made before going lightweight class D 

it just has that HEFT - got a couple of old valve heads - even more HEFT - so dunno - I know it when its there 

 

 

[nekomatic]

There's a great book about whisky, Whisky Classified by David Wishart - wait, I promise this is relevant - in which he uses a systematic mathematical process to (ahem) distil the thousands of different words people use to describe whisky into a set of about ten or twelve terms that each describe one aspect of a whisky's flavour, in a way that different people can actually understand and agree on, and between them cover the whole flavour space. So you could rank any given whisky on those ten or twelve dimensions and come up with a profile that describes reasonably well what it's like, and what others it's similar to and different from (which he does in the book, making it a great introduction to whisky for the non-expert, such as me).

 

Anyway, I reckon one could do something similar to characterise amp and cab sounds. It'd be a lot of work though, more than anyone I think would be able to do without some funding (because you need lots of people to contribute their ratings, and I'm willing to bet it's a lot easier to recruit volunteers for tasting whiskies than for listening to a bunch of bass amps). But if someone were to try, I think that's how you'd do it.