OliverBlackman Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, tauzero said: No, median could even go down with inequality rising while mean increases. eg 10k, 10k, 15k, 15k, 1M. 15k is the median, 210k is the mean. Now this goes to 10k, 10k, 11k, 11k, 2M. The median is now 11k but the mean is 408,400, and inequality has risen. By increase, I meant the gap between the median value and the highest value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 On 26/01/2024 at 08:03, OliverBlackman said: No median would be the average that increases most from inequality. Still, not a discussion for this thread although I do believe that’s a reason why there’s a market for £5k+ basses. Hmm, growing inequality in the form of the top % earning more, relatively, means that the average will be pushed up a bit, but the median will likely remain similar or even decrease, no? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 16 minutes ago, mcnach said: Hmm, growing inequality in the form of the top % earning more, relatively, means that the average will be pushed up a bit, but the median will likely remain similar or even decrease, no? See the post above. I should probably rephrase to; using median average the gap between the highest salary and the average salary would show a higher increase in inequality compared to other averages. I know what I mean anyway 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 10 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said: I know what I mean anyway 😂 As long as you do! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) When you're taking about inequal wages. One thing that is ofter conveniently overlooked is that they're not age weighted or sex weighted. At the risk of being called a sexist - pureIy from observation I would expect a large number of women and students to be working in retail as they offer very good flexible hours which suit childcare and study. I would also expect someone leaving school not to be stepping into a CEO role with a 6 figure salary, and I would expect a number of people in their 50s to be earning 3-4x that of a school leaver. Last year I met up with a load of guys who I was with at school 30 years ago. Some of them were still doing the jobs they left school to do. I'm always of the mind that if you ask for a raise, you have to be bringing something extra to the table, that isn't just a cost of living rise. Some of us have moved jobs, companies and even careers during that time. We all started out with the same age and the same education but are no longer equal. Anyway that's for off topic. Of all those present* I own the most basses and the most expensive bass. So guess I'm doing OK. *I was also the only bass player - so a win there as well. Edited January 28 by TimR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 24 minutes ago, TimR said: I'm always of the mind that if you ask for a raise, you have to be bringing something extra to the table, that isn't just a cost of living rise. Well, the thing is as the general prices rises, so does the value of your labour automatically, so you should get a raise. You don't get extra bread either just because the price has risen, same with the value of your labour. Why should labour not follow the general prices as the only product/service. The company you work for too charge more for their products/services, why should that not reflect the wages their workers get for actually providing these for the company? Doesn't seem fair to me. Edited January 28 by Baloney Balderdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegs07 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said: Well, the thing is as the general prices rises, so does the value of your labour automatically, so you should get a raise. You don't get extra bread either just because the price has risen, same with the value of your labour. Why should labour not follow the general prices as the only product/service, as the company you work for too charge more for their products/services. Small issue that when labour costs rise without an accompanying rise in GDP you end up with stagflation. Costs go up as productivity goes down. It’s a nasty spiral. Next thing you know is everyone is on strike, businesses are shedding staff and numerous threads appear on bass chat about the ludicrous cost of basses. Edited January 28 by tegs07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 minutes ago, tegs07 said: Small issue that when labour costs rise without an accompanying rise in GDP you end up with stagflation. Costs go up as productivity goes down. It’s a nasty spiral. Yeah, but why is it that it is fair that the workers should pay for this alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegs07 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said: Yeah, but why is it that it is fair that the workers should pay for this alone? Who said it was fair? Workers will obviously push for pay increases as they are getting poorer but if their employers are not selling more then they either need to raise their prices or sack workers. We have seen the rise in prices and are starting to see the rise in workers being laid off. Edited January 28 by tegs07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 10 minutes ago, tegs07 said: Who said it was fair? 46 minutes ago, TimR said: I'm always of the mind that if you ask for a raise, you have to be bringing something extra to the table, that isn't just a cost of living rise. Which I quoted in my initial post, and the whole reason why we are even discussing this. Edited January 28 by Baloney Balderdash 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegs07 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 5 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said: Which I quoted in my initial post, and the whole reason why we are even discussing this. I must have missed something. You just said as the cost of things rise so does the value of your labour? Sadly not. Your labour is a cost rather than a value. If you come up with a process that makes yourself more efficient so you can produce more or cheaper then yes your value increases but until then it’s a fixed cost leading to no increase in value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloney Balderdash Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 27 minutes ago, tegs07 said: I must have missed something. You just said as the cost of things rise so does the value of your labour? Sadly not. Your labour is a cost rather than a value. If you come up with a process that makes yourself more efficient so you can produce more or cheaper then yes your value increases but until then it’s a fixed cost leading to no increase in value. *sigh* Very strange backwards perspective. So if labour doesn't have any value, but is just an expense, then why would a company want it? You think they are running a charity or something? The product/service workers are selling is their labour, and they can do that because it has value for the companies. If a companies products increase in value so does the value of the labour of those who actually produced it. Edited January 28 by Baloney Balderdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tegs07 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said: *sigh* So if labour doesn't have any value, but is just an expense, then why would a company want it? You think they are running a charity or something? The product/service workers are selling is their labour, because it has value for the companies. If a companies products increase in value, so does the value of the labour of those who actually produced it. If a company’s profit increases yes otherwise no. If profits decrease as costs increase then they have to charge more or lose staff. You can’t just say that workers value increases because the price of things their company sells increases. We are seeing prices increase (but this is finite) at the same time as the cost of production is increasing (materials, energy, rents, labour). Companies can do this for some time, but if profits fall and costs continue to rise then ultimately people lose their jobs. Of course workers have value but that value is dependent upon productivity and profitability and not on the price of the product sold. That’s not backwards thinking. Profit is the gap between what something costs to produce and what you can sell it for. Whether this is food, a table or a gig at the dog and duck. Edited January 28 by tegs07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I was just pointing out where inequality in general has come from. I'm not talking about the top 1% inequality that skews it. I'm talking about the top 25% who are earning over the mean wage. The people on £40k+. And the odd person on £80k who thinks they're normal. The top 25% didn't sit around and wait for cost of living rises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 57 minutes ago, TimR said: I was just pointing out where inequality in general has come from. I'm not talking about the top 1% inequality that skews it. I'm talking about the top 25% who are earning over the mean wage. The people on £40k+. And the odd person on £80k who thinks they're normal. The top 25% didn't sit around and wait for cost of living rises. Why not talk about top 1%? I’m sure out of 600k, some of them play bass too. The other issue with salary averages is it doesn’t capture all wealth. There are unknowns with huge sums of assets (onshore and offshore) and regular dividends from investments that claim little to no salary. Not all of these will be captured in data/ statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 17 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said: Why not talk about top 1%? They're only buying 1% of the basses. I don't think they're influencing prices of basses in any serious way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 32 minutes ago, TimR said: They're only buying 1% of the basses. I don't think they're influencing prices of basses in any serious way. Are basses limited to one each? 😂 there’s some on this forum alone with 20+. If I had a £1 mil bonus I would take home a lot of Andy Baxter’s stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StingRayBoy42 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 minute ago, OliverBlackman said: Are basses limited to one each? 😂 there’s some on this forum alone with 20+. If I had a £1 mil bonus I would take home a lot of Andy Baxter’s stock. I've got five six and I'm skint. Come to think of it, that might be why I'm skint... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 46 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said: Are basses limited to one each? 😂 there’s some on this forum alone with 20+. If I had a £1 mil bonus I would take home a lot of Andy Baxter’s stock. I was looking at it as an average. Maybe I should have looked at it as an exponential thing. I recon Scott Devine and Ian Allison must own several hundred between them and judging by the number of people enrolling in their course they must be 1%ers*. 🤣 *but the nice kind... I have 3 basses. That must put me slightly above average. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldslapper Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Don’t get me started on the price of lessons. Oh right, 🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeftyP Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Does anyone, apart from the player, care how much the bass costs? I have an Tanglewood version of the Hofner violin bass (Beatle Bass) which I bought about 20 years ago for under £200 new and with hard case. You can get Chinese made versions for around £400 these days. A genuine, German made Hofner violin bass costs over £2000 but will it be that much better than the cheap versions? Most punters don't consciously notice the bass so wouldn't know the difference between a custom made, expensive, one and a tea chest and broomstick model! We all like to have nice things, whether that's watches, bicycles, or basses but if a cheap model does the job - what's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 You're right. No one* other than people who buy and sell instruments or keep an eye on prices have even a ball park idea of what they're worth or cost initially. But the thread is really about a bass player buying a bass. So it's quite important in that respect. *Of course that's the old joke: I hope my wife doesn't sell my basses for what I told her I paid for them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adriansmith247 Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 A really interesting thread. I seem to have come to some conclusions Maybe basses have come down in cost when you consider the quality basses out there for between £300 - £500 I don't need another bass I still want an Ibanez Musician though, for sentimental value, but am not willing to pay the current price 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman666 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 boomer pension funds are scewing the bass market right now .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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