New cab / Old sound - Holy grail?

[aniki]

I’ll start by mentioning I’ve been in this game quite a while now and have experience of most gear produced in the last 40 years or so.

When I buy equipment, I tend to buy what’s right for me regardless of price and use it for years and years.

Recently I’ve tried a few lightweight cabs but there seems to be a commonality among them that makes them sound very bright / clear / hifi etc.

No doubt that’s a good thing for some but I’m looking for something with a more vintage ‘dull thud’ but without the weight of an svt810!
Does this even exist? Or is the shift in tonality simply a consequence of neo magnets?

Recommendations?

[NickA]

Don't think it's neo magnets.  Pjb do neo (neo-powr) and ferrite (piranha) drivers allowing a direct comparison and it's the ferrite ones that sound brighter. 

 

Fashion maybe? 

 

If you have a full range, flat response HiFi cab you can always take some frequencies away. If you have a "dull thud" vintage cab it's harder to put stuff back?

 

Can you not get the sound you want by tweaking eq ...and still save your back on physical weight?. Or do the "vintage" cabs "add" something (like the distortion and octaving you can get out a valve amp)?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It's not neo magnets. Eminence for one designed their neos to sound as close as possible to their ceramics. A lot of factors influence the sound, but magnet material isn't one of them. However, any new drivers will tend to be brighter sounding than very old drivers. That's because new drivers have tight suspensions, which soften with time and use.

Edited January 30 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Downunderwonder]

Throw a blanket over it. If that's not enough throw two blankets over it.

[chris_b]

If you have a bass and rig that you've used for "years and years" and you change one link in that chain, as you've discovered, you'll get a totally different sound. That was to be expected. The cab was probably limiting the sound of the amp. With it gone, you're hearing what the amp actually sounds like.

 

If you want a 60's "dull thud out of a modern lightweight neo cab, buy a bass and amp that gets that sound and the cab will faithfully reproduce it. Maybe buy a 60's preamp pedal.

 

I get a pretty good 60's sound out of a Mike Lull PJ5, with flats and foam, an Aguilar TH500 and 2 Barefaced 112 cabs.

[aniki]

Hey,

Thanks for the info folks; some very interesting stuff there.

I've mainly played through Ampeg, Orange, Peavey and Mesa Boogie cabs; all heavy monsters!
I use a couple of valve amps with an old Peavey PA head as back up. More recently I bought a class D head which I also like the sound of.

My basses will go to the grave with me so I won't be swapping those.

Maybe 'dull thud' was a bit OTT but I've had to use quite extreme eq to get even close to what I'm used to with modern cabs. They all seem to have a lot of upper mid emphasis and lack 'punch'. Appreciate this is all a bit cloudy trying to 'describe' tones anyway.

I'll keep trying different brands and see what happens...

 

[Chienmortbb]

16 minutes ago, aniki said:

Hey,

Thanks for the info folks; some very interesting stuff there.

I've mainly played through Ampeg, Orange, Peavey and Mesa Boogie cabs; all heavy monsters!
I use a couple of valve amps with an old Peavey PA head as back up. More recently I bought a class D head which I also like the sound of.

My basses will go to the grave with me so I won't be swapping those.

Maybe 'dull thud' was a bit OTT but I've had to use quite extreme eq to get even close to what I'm used to with modern cabs. They all seem to have a lot of upper mid emphasis and lack 'punch'. Appreciate this is all a bit cloudy trying to 'describe' tones anyway.

I'll keep trying different brands and see what happens...

 

I put DiMarzio pickups into my Fender Aerodyne (P/J) and contacted their Tech Support for advice on wiring. It was a different to the usual Fender arrangement and meant that I now have a tone control that goes from bright to thud and all things in between. MOst tone controls on passive basses have a limited range.  I use roundwounds, Class D heads and a full range (LFSys) cabinet.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

What's often described as 'punch' is distortion when the driver runs out of excursion. Vintage drivers had that in spades, as they had short xmax and ran out of excursion at low volume levels. Modern drivers have longer xmax, so they can go louder with less distortion. If you like the sound of short xmax drivers you're most likely to find them in the least expensive cabs. You're least likely to find neo drivers with short xmax, as neo isn't used in low end drivers, being more expensive than ceramic. 

[Obrienp]

Have you tried any of the Barefaced 10CR based cabinets? They are designed to have a more vintage sound while combining the benefits of compact size and light weight. They also have amazing power handling, so although they do an 8 x 10,  I can’t imagine a situation where you would need that much power handling and such high SPL. I have a Two10 and it is goes loud, while giving a nice vintage sound. It also weighs less than 14 Kg with the cloth grill. 

[No lust in Jazz]

here's my recent experience. After spending the last 8 years playing a Quilter Bass Block into two Barefaced Cabs. I've just started using the same cabs with a Mesa Walkabout head - same Serek, Wilcocks and Fender basses, same hapless idiot playing them - totally different sound. 

 

The flat Mesa sound is very different from the Quilter with the same cabs - whether its your Holy Grail or not I can't say.

[tauzero]

On 30/01/2024 at 22:37, Downunderwonder said:

Throw a blanket over it. If that's not enough throw two blankets over it.

 

If that's still not enough, use a P with flats.

[Raslee]

I think maybe trying a Class A/B amp over a class D may get you there. I tried both my Markbass LMT head & Eden WT550 into some Markbass cabs. The difference was hugely clear, thud, heft, warmth from the Eden. The Markbass was ‘ok’ but definitely didn’t have the secret sauce of the weighty Eden head.

[Phil Starr]

Welcome to Basschat

 

Bass fashions change all the time and as music changes bass tones change and manufacturers have to follow those trends and of course people like to use the same gear as their idols/role models.The cabs you mention all have a midrange 'suckout' so what you are hearing is the midrange being put back, nothing to do with the neo magnets. You'll also notice a tendency to add in horns and to give more at the top end which will add to the brightness. The theory is that if you start with an uncoloured sound then you should be able to eq any sound you want. Your choice is to add in a 'dull thud' effects box or to accept that you are going to have to just dial in your own midrange suckout. Having said that there are cabs out there that attempt to create an 'old school' sound with lightweight speakers. Have a look at the Barefaced 10's as suggested as the most obvious attempt at an old school sound from really lightweight speakers but if you just mean smaller and lighter rather than the ultimate in light then there are still loads of options in modern gear even if the tendency is towards less coloration.

 

BTW it's nothing to do with neo magnets which are just magnets but smaller or with class D v's AB which are just amps with different 'sauce' applied in the rest of the amp.

Edited February 1 by Phil Starr

[Downunderwonder]

18 hours ago, Raslee said:

I think maybe trying a Class A/B amp over a class D may get you there. I tried both my Markbass LMT head & Eden WT550 into some Markbass cabs. The difference was hugely clear, thud, heft, warmth from the Eden. The Markbass was ‘ok’ but definitely didn’t have the secret sauce of the weighty Eden head.

Two stories from the stables of AgedHorse come to mind that bury class distinction.

 

When he was a more junior engineer he got fired for fooling all the audiophiles that they were blind auditioning a bunch of amps when it was the same amp the whole time.

 

Later he was involved in developing the GenzBenz class D lined up to replace the class A/B. Iirc it was the same old preamp with both amp sections. Nobody could tell which was which no matter how hard they tried.

 

Some amps have more heft than others but it's not the class of the amp doing the hefting.

[DF Shortscale]

Origin / Jad Freer / Broughton / Sushi Box all make preamp pedals that address this, it’s probably the least expensive way to get a bit of vintage voicing into your signal chain. 

 

Genzler’s Nu Classic cabs are also voiced to sound more like older cabs, I haven’t tried these but if they’re anything like the rest of their product line I’m sure they will be amazing.

[No lust in Jazz]

I have / had a Noble Pre - if you like a couple of valves, in front of the Quilter and I can only say that at a non scientific base line of non excessive knob twiddling on any of the units, the Mesa WA and Quilter (with Noble) through the same cabs sound different.

 

As has been mentioned before the usual stuff like flat wound strings, foam mute will all have an effect.

 

 

[Bolo]

Turn your cab around 180 degrees back to front.

[itu]

On 02/02/2024 at 02:46, Downunderwonder said:

...he got fired for fooling all the audiophiles that they were blind auditioning a bunch of amps when it was the same amp the whole time.

There was a test in the university while I studied acoustics. There was a pair of similar amps, with a black face, and a brushed aluminium face. In tests people noticed that the black one was good, but the brushed aluminium unit had too brittle sound.

 

In another test there was a pair of loudspeakers. They had three colour textiles: white, brown, and black. While the test personnel "changed loudspeakers", they actually changed the textiles. You may guess the results: brown was the last in terms of sound quality, and black the best. People listen with their eyes, you like it or not.

[DGBass]

On 30/01/2024 at 20:40, aniki said:

I’m looking for something with a more vintage ‘dull thud’ but without the weight of an svt810!
Does this even exist? Or is the shift in tonality simply a consequence of neo magnets?

Sadly, that type of sound is a dying breed these days.  @Phil Starr was on to something when he talked about fashions and trends. The choice of speakers for compact high performance light weight cabs almost dictates the use of 10 or 12 inch drivers and that affects the tonality.  Most 15 inch high performance drivers that can deliver a substantial "thud" or "thump" as I prefer to descibe it will need a certain cabinet volume to work efficiently and at their best performance. The reality is that 1x15 cabs designated as high performance aren't very compact. If that was possible, I'm sure we would have seen a compact lightweight 1x15 thread here on basschat that delivered a useable build plan to conclusion. If there is one I may have missed it?  And that's why there aren't so many of them around in the commerical market. The only one I've found interesting is the Mesa Subway 1x15 and thats because of previous experience with the high quality of Mesa cabs. But it costs nearly £1000.  I've gone the lightweight route and found that modern boutique 2x10's still can't emulate the mid sucking thump a good vintage 1x15 cab can.

I'll admit I'm firmly routed in the past as far as thud and thump are concerend and use a 44 year old Musicman RH115 made of solid pine but loaded with a state of the art Lavoce Neo driver. It weight in at 23kg, is a one handed lift and has that old school thud and thump in spades. The point here is that maybe an old school cab is worth hanging onto just to get that sound and maybe a modern driver upgrade will help lighten the load and be less expensive than shelling out a grand or more for a modern 2x10 cab or a 1x12?  An SVT 810 is around 64kg. I mean, thats weighty. You could easily shell out a grand or more for some of the recommended modern lightwieght compact cabs that are always mentioned in these type of threads. There is a lot of scope available in a cab that weighs less than an svt810. For example, you could pick up a good Trace Elliot 1518 cab for around £50 that weighs 39kg but will have thud and thump by the shedload. Neo drivers don't really make much difference tonally, its all about the weight. I sort of wish when recommendations are made for boutique modern lightweight cabs that folks wound prepend a recommendation with the line "if you have a grand or more to spare, why don't you check out x cab from y manufacturer. It keeps things real.  I love that old school thud and thump, a p-bass with flats and a large booming 1x15 cab. You wont ever be able to emulate that with a 1x12 or a 2x10. Yes, you might be able to move as much air, but the tonality will be different. I've tried for years and never come close. Open to any recommendations though with potential costs attached🙂 

[Downunderwonder]

15's have such poor dispersion characteristics. Not nearly as bad as 410 in a square box, with the glorious exception of Barefaced 410 etc.

 

[MichaelDean]

My Zilla 212 is a nice thing. It can thump and sound vintagey. It's got neo drivers and weighs in at about 24kg. With a hand truck, I can wheel that, my head and pedalboard to a gig easily with my bass on my back. No pesky high frequency driver to deal with either! I ordered mine as vertical only so it's taller and doesn't have a huge stage footprint. Plus made in the UK if you like that sort of thing. 

 

https://www.zillacabs.com/bass-cabinets

 

[Obrienp]

3 hours ago, MichaelDean said:

My Zilla 212 is a nice thing. It can thump and sound vintagey. It's got neo drivers and weighs in at about 24kg. With a hand truck, I can wheel that, my head and pedalboard to a gig easily with my bass on my back. No pesky high frequency driver to deal with either! I ordered mine as vertical only so it's taller and doesn't have a huge stage footprint. Plus made in the UK if you like that sort of thing. 

 

https://www.zillacabs.com/bass-cabinets

 

Another one I had never heard of! Quite a bit cheaper than a BF 2x12 as well but a bit heavier. 

[MichaelDean]

6 hours ago, Obrienp said:

Another one I had never heard of! Quite a bit cheaper than a BF 2x12 as well but a bit heavier. 

If you're ever near Bristol, you'd be welcome to give mine a go. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 03/02/2024 at 13:57, itu said:

There was a test in the university while I studied acoustics. There was a pair of similar amps, with a black face, and a brushed aluminium face. In tests people noticed that the black one was good, but the brushed aluminium unit had too brittle sound.

 

In another test there was a pair of loudspeakers. They had three colour textiles: white, brown, and black. While the test personnel "changed loudspeakers", they actually changed the textiles. You may guess the results: brown was the last in terms of sound quality, and black the best. People listen with their eyes, you like it or not.

Are you suggesting that OP simply should paint their cab and be done with it, or what are you on about here?

 

Also that doesn't mean that everything sounds the same, or equally good, that personal preferences and taste isn't a thing, or that everyone (or anyone for that matter) listen purely with their eyes!

 

Edited February 4 by Baloney Balderdash

[Chienmortbb]

12 hours ago, DGBass said:

the mid sucking thump

Suck the mids out, and you suck the life out of the mix. Seriously though, modern 12s can be equal or better than the old 15s as the real issue is how much air they can shift. I got good feedback about my sound last week from some "old timers" about my sound from a 10 with a compression driver/horn. Don't judge a cab by its driver diameter.