Peak Wal?

[ead]

I've played a couple of Wal basses and, tbh, I didn't really get on with them.  I'm speaking here as an ACG bass owner with the multi-coil pickups and filter preamp so I was expecting to feel right at home.  Couldn't put my finger on why, but there you go.

[BassApprentice]

Would like to try a Wal, but I doubt I'll ever be in a position to buy one. 

 

Edit after actually reading all posts: having basses sharply price and having multiple of them probably isn't the best combination to get them moving....

Edited February 5 by BassApprentice

[Bigwan]

2 hours ago, franzbassist said:

 

I remember that!

 

 

Given your former username Gareth this comes as no surprise!

[LeftyJ]

4 hours ago, acidbass said:

They are a very dated bass.  I get that people have memories of 80s bands playing Wals but to younger generations they are entirely antiquated.  See also - Status

 

Bass-playing fans of Tool, Muse and Slipknot would like a word 

You have a point, the audience I described is a bit niche of course. 

[Russ]

There's a lot of options right now for players who want some of that Wal flavour - quite a few companies producing multi-coil pickups (Herrick, Turner, Bassculture, and apparently now Nordstrand), filter preamps (Lusithand, ACG), and ever a couple of companies that will make you a lookalike! There's a US-based company on FB called Octave Basses who make straight-up Wal copies for Justin Chancellor fans who have neither the money nor patience to get a real one! They're supposed to be pretty good though.  There's some demo videos up there of someone who has one playing Tool tunes, and it sounds spot-on. although it probably doesn't hurt that the guy in question has spent a fortune on getting all Justin Chancellor's other gear - the same amps (Demeter/GK/Mesa), the same speakers, all the same pedals, etc, so I suppose that helps.  

 

Not sure any of them will have the cachet of the real deal, but, if you love the sound, you should be able to get pretty close. 

 

I remember passing on a Wal Mk2 in the Notting Hill Music Exchange back in the mid-90s for £250 because I thought it was too heavy. I guess nobody had any idea of what they'd end up selling for!  

Edited February 5 by Russ

[cetera]

I still have my 80's Mk1 fretless which isn't going anywhere....

However, I sold my 9.5 condition 'Geddy spec' black & gold Wal Mk1 fretted last year for £11K 😎

 

It wasn't leaving the storage facility as I was worried about it getting damaged or worse..... and I wanted the money for family travel & life experiences. I don't see used prices for similar getting any higher so I think I timed my sale well....

Edited February 6 by cetera

[NikNik]

Back in the mid Noughties, I brokered a sale of sale of a Mk1 Custom that belonged to a musician acquaintance to a guy in Amsterdam. The price? £2200. I took the bass to Amsterdam and the guy couldn't believe his luck in getting a pristine model, with original case. The musician couldn't believe getting £2k for it, given that he'd bought it for £500 back in the late '80s.

[NickA]

Peaked I reckon.  Price goes silly high, collectors and speculators sell, market floods, price plummets.

 

Bloke on Facebook is selling two he ordered before the order book closed, meticulously modelled on basses that bloke from rush played for a bit.  I'm guessing they've never been played.  "Price on application". 

 

People will pay £10k for something that will soon be worth £15k, but not £15k for something that might soon be worth £10k.

 

All for the good if it stops the speculation and people can buy them to play them again.

 

There are loads out there at the moment with unrealistic prices .. especially the slab ash bodied, passive, single pick up ones being sold for the price of  ( and incorrectly described as ) MK1s by the gallery.  Those basses were cheap models sold in the 80s for £250 when the active, twin pickup "custom" was £750.  Two / three years ago they sold for £2k max.  No wonder they haven't sold.

 

NB: no cache in owning one ...except with other bass players over 50 years of age.  I'm out playing mine very week or so and mostly get "Love the sound of your bass.  What is it? ".

 

 

Edited February 7 by NickA

[Belka]

7 hours ago, NickA said:

NB: no cache in owning one ...except with other bass players over 50 years of age.  I'm out playing mine very week or so and mostly get "Love the sound of your bass.  What is it? ".

 

I think this is mostly true. It's a bit sad that the ridiculous prices and closed order book/4 year wait means that there are no (at least that I can think of) young/up and coming players playing Wals. I mean you can see younger players out there playing USA Spectors, Foderas, MTDs, Alembics, Ken Smiths, etc., professionally, but most of the new Wals I see (admittedly on Instagram so not necessarily truly representative, but it is a good indication of younger players' trends at least) seem to be going to weekend warriors of a certain age (over 50 is quite accurate) who have waited the 4/5 years (nothing against weekend warriors of certain age of course - they keep the custom builders in business). 

 

In the UK, Overwater seem to have the pro market pretty well sewn up, but go back a few years and there were plenty of players using Wals at the West End, on BBC sessions etc. (Rob Burns is one that springs to mind). Even Laurence Cottle seems to be using his GB more than his Wals these days (too valuable to play out perhaps?).

 

This just all reinforces the stereotypes that Wals are collectors' items, antiquated etc., as you're not seeing them out there used for new music.

 

Of course it's none of my business and Paul can do what he wants with his company, but he has really missed a trick in not finding a good quality manufacturer in Japan, South Korea or the Czech Republic (think Spector, Sadowsky, etc.) who can take up some of the manufacturing slack while still turning out a really high quality product which would get into players' hands and keep the brand alive, while keeping the UK operation as a smaller custom shop. 

Edited February 7 by Belka

[JPJ]

3 hours ago, Belka said:

 

In the UK, Overwater seem to have the pro market pretty well sewn up, but go back a few years and there were plenty of players using Wals at the West End, on BBC sessions etc. (Rob Burns is one that springs to mind). Even Laurence Cottle seems to be using his GB more than his Wals these days (too valuable to play out perhaps?).

 

The bizarre thing about Overwater is, despite the quality, they do not retain their value on the used market. I own three that will probably go to the grave with me, but they were all £2k+ basses purchased secondhand for less than £1k. My main Overwater (J5) cost the original owner near £2.5k and I picked it up for £850 a year later. My original series five string has a 36” scale and a filter preamp (like the Wal) and should be worth a lot more than what I paid @BigRedX for it when I prised it out of his hands. 

[Cato]

As I posted in another thread recently I nearly bought a Wal for £500 in about 1990 but went for a Washburn Status instead.

 

At that time they weren't a well known brand and they had none of the mythology that they've acquired in the intervening years. I'd never heard of them before that day 

 

If I had bought it I'd almost certainly have kept it because I still have the Washburn.

 

With the benefit of hindsight do I regret not buying it for that price?

 

Not really, the potential windfall would be nice, but the truth is I spent hours in Birmingham Musical Exchanges going between the Wal and the Washburn and 17 year old me preferred the Washburn.

 

 

Edited February 7 by Cato

[40hz]

5 hours ago, Belka said:

I think this is mostly true. It's a bit sad that the ridiculous prices and closed order book/4 year wait means that there are no (at least that I can think of) young/up and coming players playing Wals. I mean you can see younger players out there playing USA Spectors, Foderas, MTDs, Alembics, Ken Smiths, etc., professionally, but most of the new Wals I see (admittedly on Instagram so not necessarily truly representative, but it is a good indication of younger players' trends at least) seem to be going to weekend warriors of a certain age (over 50 is quite accurate) who have waited the 4/5 years (nothing against weekend warriors of certain age of course - they keep the custom builders in business). 

 

In the UK, Overwater seem to have the pro market pretty well sewn up, but go back a few years and there were plenty of players using Wals at the West End, on BBC sessions etc. (Rob Burns is one that springs to mind). Even Laurence Cottle seems to be using his GB more than his Wals these days (too valuable to play out perhaps?).

 

This just all reinforces the stereotypes that Wals are collectors' items, antiquated etc., as you're not seeing them out there used for new music.

 

Of course it's none of my business and Paul can do what he wants with his company, but he has really missed a trick in not finding a good quality manufacturer in Japan, South Korea or the Czech Republic (think Spector, Sadowsky, etc.) who can take up some of the manufacturing slack while still turning out a really high quality product which would get into players' hands and keep the brand alive, while keeping the UK operation as a smaller custom shop. 

This is exactly how I feel about Wal. I was 'this' close to pulling the trigger on a MK1 order a couple of years ago, when they were under 5k. Now you can't order them, the wait time would be 4 years anyway and the prices are utterly astronomical.

 

I know Wal can do what they like and they have their market, yadda yadda, but I can't deny it's infuriating to have a British bass design icon slowly move further and further out of reach of all but the most wealthy. 

 

I also know they have zero 'need' to, but I'd love for them to license the design and produce a model built somewhere else for half the price, ala Spector and the Czech Euros.

 

As it stands they have a (generally speaking) specific market of over 50's and Tool fans. When they're all gone, or the market falls on it's arse for them, who's interested in buying them next? 

Edited February 7 by 40hz

[Belka]

51 minutes ago, JPJ said:

The bizarre thing about Overwater is, despite the quality, they do not retain their value on the used market. I own three that will probably go to the grave with me, but they were all £2k+ basses purchased secondhand for less than £1k. My main Overwater (J5) cost the original owner near £2.5k and I picked it up for £850 a year later. My original series five string has a 36” scale and a filter preamp (like the Wal) and should be worth a lot more than what I paid @BigRedX for it when I prised it out of his hands. 

I noticed this too. I don't the real reason why this might be exactly, but the only thing I'd hazard a guess at is that Overwaters are designed to be a Swiss Army knife/blank canvas kind of instrument - use the electronics to sculpt any tone you want - perfect for a pit player/touring musician who needs to be able to access different tones very easily on one bass. To my ears at least, this comes at the expense of the instruments not having a core, recognisable tone that jumps out and appeals to people  - people don't buy them for their sound, but for the flexibility/quality, so perhaps outside of the pro world they don't have that much appeal.

 

I could be wrong - I mean I've played a few of them but you've owned three so probably have a much better idea than I do.  

Edited February 7 by Belka

[Belka]

24 minutes ago, 40hz said:

This is exactly how I feel about Wal. I was 'this' close to pulling the trigger on a MK1 order a couple of years ago, when they were under 5k. Now you can't order them, the wait time would be 4 years anyway and the prices are utterly astronomical.

 

I know Wal can do what they like and they have their market, yadda yadda, but I can't deny it's infuriating to have a British bass design icon slowly move further and further out of reach of all but the most wealthy. 

 

I also know they have zero 'need' to, but I'd love for them to license the design and produce a model built somewhere else for half the price ala Spector and the Czech Euros.

 

As it stands they have a specific market of over 50's and Tool fans. When they're all gone, or the market falls on it's arse for them, who's interested in buying them next? 

Exactly. I remember hearing stories from Rufus Philpot and Janek Gwizdala going to Wal as up and coming young players to order their basses. Could something like that happen now? I don't think so. 

 

It's true for the pop world too. The likes of Nick Beggs, Martin Kemp and Mick Karn were all very young when they picked up their Wals. I doubt they had to wait 4/5 years for them.

Edited February 7 by Belka

[BassApprentice]

1 hour ago, JPJ said:

The bizarre thing about Overwater is, despite the quality, they do not retain their value on the used market. I own three that will probably go to the grave with me, but they were all £2k+ basses purchased secondhand for less than £1k. My main Overwater (J5) cost the original owner near £2.5k and I picked it up for £850 a year later. My original series five string has a 36” scale and a filter preamp (like the Wal) and should be worth a lot more than what I paid @BigRedX for it when I prised it out of his hands. 

Same can be said for many custom builds, particularly UK builders. Many ACGs go through the For Sale section for between £800-£1500 when they would easily cost double that or more to order new.

It's the risk you take custom ordering something since the buyer rarely has an exact point of reference vs buying a Fender P bass that they can try in a shop.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, JPJ said:

The bizarre thing about Overwater is, despite the quality, they do not retain their value on the used market. I own three that will probably go to the grave with me, but they were all £2k+ basses purchased secondhand for less than £1k. My main Overwater (J5) cost the original owner near £2.5k and I picked it up for £850 a year later. My original series five string has a 36” scale and a filter preamp (like the Wal) and should be worth a lot more than what I paid @BigRedX for it when I prised it out of his hands. 

 

At least they are holding their second-hand value a bit better these days then they did back in the pre-internet age when I originally bought it second hand. This was in the early 90s when I spotted it in my local musical instrument retailer priced at £575. Spent about 30 minutes trying it out, thought it was very nice, but a it more money than I wanted to pay for a bass back then. I told them I'd think about it and left the shop. By the time I'd got home I decided that I'd been an idiot to leave it at that, and I would nip back into town during my lunch break on Monday and put a deposit down, with the view to paying the rest at the end of the month when I got paid. Unfortunately work suddenly became so busy I didn't have any time either during the day or on Saturday (this was in the days before Sunday opening was normal). When I finally had time to go back, I expected the bass to be long gone. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was it still available, but the price had been reduced to £350! I didn't bother putting down a deposit, I paid in full there and then, and managed to persuade the shop to thrown in a suitable hard case for an extra £20. I hate to think how little they gave the original owner in cash or PX value in order for it to still be profitable at the price I paid.

[skelf]

4 hours ago, BassApprentice said:

Same can be said for many custom builds, particularly UK builders. Many ACGs go through the For Sale section for between £800-£1500 when they would easily cost double that or more to order new.

It's the risk you take custom ordering something since the buyer rarely has an exact point of reference vs buying a Fender P bass that they can try in a shop.

Hi

 

I regularly see ACG basses sold that go for more than they cost when new. So not always the risk you think but I get the point you are making in that it is not a standard format. 

[Bass Culture]

On 05/02/2024 at 21:42, Russ said:

There's a lot of options right now for players who want some of that Wal flavour - quite a few companies producing multi-coil pickups (Herrick, Turner, Bassculture, and apparently now Nordstrand), filter preamps (Lusithand, ACG), and ever a couple of companies that will make you a lookalike! There's a US-based company on FB called Octave Basses who make straight-up Wal copies for Justin Chancellor fans who have neither the money nor patience to get a real one! They're supposed to be pretty good though.  There's some demo videos up there of someone who has one playing Tool tunes, and it sounds spot-on. although it probably doesn't hurt that the guy in question has spent a fortune on getting all Justin Chancellor's other gear - the same amps (Demeter/GK/Mesa), the same speakers, all the same pedals, etc, so I suppose that helps.  

 

Not sure any of them will have the cachet of the real deal, but, if you love the sound, you should be able to get pretty close. 

 

I remember passing on a Wal Mk2 in the Notting Hill Music Exchange back in the mid-90s for £250 because I thought it was too heavy. I guess nobody had any idea of what they'd end up selling for!  

 

Very true.   I have my own Zoot 'Wal-alike', made by MIke Walsh, which is so much more comfortable to play than the real thing.  One of the original pickups developed a problem and this has inspired Mike to start making his own multi-coils, which he's going to offer on his own range of Wal-alike basses.  Knowing the research he's done, I suspect they are going to be as close to the originals as it is possible to get (having had many conversations with him I'm now much more aware than previously of the complex and multiple specification and topographical considerations involved).  The latest version of the Lusithand pre is also voiced slightly differently too, I believe.  So - as Russ says - there's plenty of options out there for those hankering after the Wal sound without having the patience and pockets deep enough to go 'full Wal'.  My own next 'Wal-alike' will be using MIke's new pickups too, but will be passive, so it will be interesting to hear how close it gets without the filter preamp.  Still it's own variation of a Wal, of course, but from a much earlier era and iteration.

[BigRedX]

Is there a "Wal sound"?

 

The three players I most closely associate with the basses - Mick Karn, Leigh Gorman and Justin Chancellor all sound very different. 

 

Can you get close to all the sounds that three use with any of the current crop of Wal-alikes?

[Russ]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Is there a "Wal sound"?

 

The three players I most closely associate with the basses - Mick Karn, Leigh Gorman and Justin Chancellor all sound very different. 

 

Can you get close to all the sounds that three use with any of the current crop of Wal-alikes?

There's a certain presence in the mids, especially the high mids, that's very distinctive, no matter who's playing one. It really brings out the "mwah" on a fretless too. You can hear it with all the above players, as well as 80s-era Geddy Lee, Nick Beggs, etc. 

[Russ]

5 hours ago, Bass Culture said:

 

Very true.   I have my own Zoot 'Wal-alike', made by MIke Walsh, which is so much more comfortable to play than the real thing.  One of the original pickups developed a problem and this has inspired Mike to start making his own multi-coils, which he's going to offer on his own range of Wal-alike basses.  Knowing the research he's done, I suspect they are going to be as close to the originals as it is possible to get (having had many conversations with him I'm now much more aware than previously of the complex and multiple specification and topographical considerations involved).  The latest version of the Lusithand pre is also voiced slightly differently too, I believe.  So - as Russ says - there's plenty of options out there for those hankering after the Wal sound without having the patience and pockets deep enough to go 'full Wal'.  My own next 'Wal-alike' will be using MIke's new pickups too, but will be passive, so it will be interesting to hear how close it gets without the filter preamp.  Still it's own variation of a Wal, of course, but from a much earlier era and iteration.

I love what I've seen of Mike's Zoot Wal-a-likes. I'd like to get my hands on one and give it a try. Lusithand's preamps are great - they're missing the "pick attack" control, but he sets the frequency sweep on the filters to extend to higher frequencies to compensate. 

 

If your next Zoot is going to be more like an older Wal, can Mike do a leather scratchplace?  

[Bass Culture]

21 minutes ago, Russ said:

I love what I've seen of Mike's Zoot Wal-a-likes. I'd like to get my hands on one and give it a try. Lusithand's preamps are great - they're missing the "pick attack" control, but he sets the frequency sweep on the filters to extend to higher frequencies to compensate. 

 

If your next Zoot is going to be more like an older Wal, can Mike do a leather scratchplace?  

 

I remember seeing that bass (the JG prefixed serial number ones?) being featured in one of the mags at the time.  But to me that was the thing about Wal's when they first became popular (as a now 60-year old,  I'm talking about the early 80's), they looked quite different to anything else around at the time too.    The oiled natural finish of the Customs especially wasn't really something anyone else was doing, I recall.  Mind you, as appealing as I found them, I wouldn't be enticed inot parting with the kind of five figure sums now they can fetch now.  My Zoot Wal-alike gets me quite close enough to scratch that particular itch.

[drTStingray]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Is there a "Wal sound"?

 

The three players I most closely associate with the basses - Mick Karn, Leigh Gorman and Justin Chancellor all sound very different. 

 

Can you get close to all the sounds that three use with any of the current crop of Wal-alikes?

I haven’t seen Alan Spenner or Percy Jones mentioned but they got/get a specific sound and were probably amongst the most prominent of players of Wals. Alan Spenner can be heard on many Roximusic tracks but the Wal sound appears on the late 70s ones such as Avalon and Jealous Guy. Percy Jones is on the Brand X stuff and got a very distinctive sound. I was lucky enough to see both of them live in the late 70s/early 80s and they sounded excellent. 
 

I followed Alan Spenner’s career from the late 60s - he was a Precision player until getting the Wal in the mid 70s. Whilst he sounded good on a Precision the Wal made his playing really come to life as you could actually hear the detail of his playing. Leo Lyons also used one on a mid 80s live performance with one of the several reformed versions of Ten Years After - this one with the original line up - same effect - you could hear the detail of his playing and it was a fuller sound compared with his customary Jazz. 
 

Stingrays get reasonably close to Wals in the right hands but the Wal really scores with the ‘Q’ control - in fact the Scott’s Bass Lessons feature on them discusses this - it is the stand out difference between a Wal and anything else and also features on those Alan Spenner tracks (PS is it just me or is Scott appearing with basses which are more and more wrecked looking - they all appear to need a decent repaint in my view - just look decidedly tatty and old fashioned 😀😉)

 

I would still like a Wal (I prefer the detailed and full sound rather than the current fad for bass sounds where much is inaudible or even worse, plodding in the background). However some of the prices are eye watering - we have the sh*te exchange rate to blame for that, as it’s quite attractive for Americans to buy them - silly political choices eh…….. 

[LukeFRC]

12 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

we have the sh*te exchange rate to blame for that, as it’s quite attractive for Americans to buy them - silly political choices eh…….. 

exactly - sort out the whole taxation/representation thing and they would never have chucked the tea in the harbour! 

[chriswareham]

8 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Is there a "Wal sound"?

 

The three players I most closely associate with the basses - Mick Karn, Leigh Gorman and Justin Chancellor all sound very different. 

 

Can you get close to all the sounds that three use with any of the current crop of Wal-alikes?

 

In an interview, Justin Chancellor says he switched from a Stingray to a Wal when he joined Tool and started to record the Aenima album. The weird thing is, the bass sounds on the demos for that album recorded with Justin's predecessor Paul D'Amour sound almost identical to me tone wise - and that was all Stingray.