Online vendor asking for video of an issue before accepting a return

[chriswareham]

A while ago I ordered a MIDI controller keyboard online from a well known UK vendor. It was on back order, and finally arrived last Tuesday. Cut to a couple of days later, and I finally had time to test it out only to find that one of the keys refuses to trigger unless I apply a lot of force to it - by which I mean I basically have to press the thing as hard as the hulk probably would. The rest of the keys trigger as I'd expect, with a degree of force commensurate to the velocity I'm trying to produce. I immediately contacted customer service, and had a response on Friday asking for a video showing the problem before they'd accept a return. Now am I wrong, or do the distance selling laws not suggest that I shoudn't have to jump through fecking hoops to demonstrate a problem with an item I order online? I've ordered several thousands of pounds worth of items through this company in the last year alone, and regardless of that I don't have a smart phone, so videoing a demonstration of the problem is a major ball ache.

 

I appreciate that a lot of people use the distance selling laws as part of a "try before you buy", where they can get a go on a bit of kit and then send it back if they decide it's just not for them and the vendor then has to try to resell the item as "B stock". At the same time, I've had a brand new bass guitar turn up in the last year from the same vendor in a completely unplayable state that would have required an expensive setup. I only continue to use this vendor as they seem to be the only place that ever have stock from one particular manufacturer. Personally, I consider it a reasonable part of the change from bricks and mortar local music shops to buying sight unseen online - the vendor has lower overheads, but if they're too fecking useless to check an item out before shipping it out then that's on them. Anyway, rant over. Tomorrow I actually have to drive through the place where unusually for this kind of vendor they do have one bricks and mortar store. I'm visiting family not far away from there (albeit two hours from where I live), and I'm factoring in time to visit them with the defective item. It just boils my piss that they won't otherwise accept a return without a video of the problem.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

They’re having you over mate. I’m assuming it was a brand new item and not sold as seen within any faults? If so, tell them to do one and get your money back. I would also very much like to know who they are so I can avoid them.

[chriswareham]

22 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

They’re having you over mate. I’m assuming it was a brand new item and not sold as seen within any faults? If so, tell them to do one and get your money back. I would also very much like to know who they are so I can avoid them.

Name starts with an "A". Based in Guildford. I've been shopping there since I was an almost penniless student more years ago than I care to remember, and they were a tiny shop on a back street. Last time I'll order from them though.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

13 minutes ago, chriswareham said:

Name starts with an "A". Based in Guildford. I've been shopping there since I was an almost penniless student more years ago than I care to remember, and they were a tiny shop on a back street. Last time I'll order from them though.

That sounds very unlike them. I shop with them and have never had an issue.

If it were me, I would be ringing them up and asking to speak with someone in authority rather than the spotty YTS oik.

They have absolutely no grounds to require you to provide video evidence of the fault with the product they have delivered.

What's more, anyone who has half a brain at that shop knows that and whoever you have had dealings with is out their depth.

 

[Burns-bass]

To be fair, recording a video on the phone would take less time than writing the message out here. Even if you don’t have one, perhaps you could find someone to help you?

 

The company won’t resell this as it’s faulty. Instead it’ll go back to the manufacturer, and they may request evidence it’s not working.

 

I really don’t see this as an attack on your consumer rights. 
 

Perhaps if you identify a fault you could save others time and hassle…

 

[Geek99]

If it’s a device packed up in a box, rather than a bass that just needs to be taped back into its box, I can totally see why they don’t check thimgs like midi controllers and just rely on the tiny failure rate 

[Alfie]

Lots of companies won't refund delivery costs unless the item is faulty. I imagine this gets abused by unscrupulous consumers trying it on.

 

I think the company are being perfectly reasonable.

[OliverBlackman]

I would expect a store with such a big online presence to expect a % of returns and the best way to keep consumer confidence is to not fuss over them. If they can’t handle that, don’t sell online.
 

I’ve not had any experience from there since 2009 when I bought an interface. Funnily enough I was advised against the Focurite because this other one would last forever. They weren’t wrong, it’s still going strong!

[binky_bass]

They might be asking for a video of the fault to then be able to process it as a faulty return and as such pay the return postage.

 

If they have no evidence of a fault, you might be shouldering the return postage cost. 

 

Could also be a newbie not understanding correctly the way things are done!

 

I'd tend to give the store the opportunity to do the right thing, call them up, explain the situation and my guess is they'll straighten this out. 

 

I've used this retailer before many times and only had good service, that's just my milage, but this could all be a misunderstanding or a new recruit not quite getting things right! 

Edited February 5 by binky_bass

[Grahambythesea]

I had a similar request from an eBay seller Ona faulty foot pedal tuner. What was there to video, plug it in turn it in, nothing to see,it doesn’t work!

[asingardenof]

On 04/02/2024 at 06:55, Burns-bass said:

To be fair, recording a video on the phone would take less time than writing the message out here. Even if you don’t have one, perhaps you could find someone to help you?

 

The company won’t resell this as it’s faulty. Instead it’ll go back to the manufacturer, and they may request evidence it’s not working.

 

I really don’t see this as an attack on your consumer rights. 
 

Perhaps if you identify a fault you could save others time and hassle…

 

Presumably even if he records a video they'll still be thorough and test it to see if they can recreate the problem though, so not sure it's saving anyone time at the manufacturer end. Plus he has identified a fault, which is why it's being returned...

[warwickhunt]

Personally I would/could do a video, upload and attach it to email blah blah blah but I'd be doing it as much as anything to cover my back.  However, there'll be some folk that can't or would find that difficult to do and they shouldn't need to stress about returning a faulty item.  I'm confident the distance buying doesn't require the onus to be on the buyer to prove it is faulty, so the seller appears to be imposing conditions that aren't required.

 

Aside from anything else, if you really wanted to, you could easily make it appear you were pressing buttons etc even if you weren't; so I am unsure what the seller/company is gaining!  

 

For context I received a dehumidifier direct from a manufacturer last week and needed to return it as it ran very noisy.  I filled in a returns form and they rang me to ask if I could do a video, I said that I'd already videoed it on my phone for my record but seeing as they were on the phone, they could have a listen... 3 days later they'd collected the unit and sent me a replacement.  I could have faffed on forwarding the video but tbh I knew my rights and it was going back either way!

[ahpook]

12 hours ago, binky_bass said:

I'd tend to give the store the opportunity to do the right thing, call them up, explain the situation and my guess is they'll straighten this out.

 

This.

 

A friendly call explaining you don't have a smartphone, so the video's not straightforward...and maybe mention you're hardly likely to start fiddling them now after your years of customer loyalty. Smiles all round, hopefully.

 

 

 

 

[Musicman666]

i have rung up a vendor about a faulty keyboard ...after some investigation it embarrassingly turned out to be some low profile packaging left under the keys that i didn't know was there ..sometimes videos are exchanged just in order to see if its something daft ..no point in returning something that might be ok ..the vendor assumes everyone is a potential idiot which i can well understand.  

[synthaside]

I had a similar/funny run-in with another online company .. they actually sent me a totally different product ... the box was incorrectly labelled .... 

I called an agent, and, they wanted photos .... to prove it  ???   I mean.... what would stop me from having just swapped it with a different thing for the photo.

I strongly suspect it had gone out to the customer before ... they had done the ole .... swapero  returned it .... and sent out to me " as new " 

Terrible really.

[12stringbassist]

If you do the video showing what you have to do to make the unit work, they can then say that the unit works, as you have made it work.
You might have to jump up and down on it three times to make it work, but it works.
Tell them it does not work within your normal expectations and that you demand to see where in any current legislation that you have to provide video evidence. 
Point them to this topic.

[asingardenof]

My experience with sending my Elf back to Trace Elliot was to explain at length to the guy at PMT's returns dept exactly what steps I'd taken to confirm that it was definitely the amp at fault and nothing else between my fingers and the cab. He didn't even try and suggest anything else (he sounded quite resigned, I may possibly have laboured the point a bit) but just agreed that I'd covered pretty much everything that could have been done. 

 

It will depend on the individual company's policies and the pragmatism of the person you deal with as to what they want you to provide.

[asingardenof]

10 minutes ago, 12stringbassist said:

If you do the video showing what you have to do to make the unit work, they can then say that the unit works, as you have made it work.
You might have to jump up and down on it three times to make it work, but it works.
Tell them it does not work within your normal expectations and that you demand to see where in any current legislation that you have to provide video evidence. 
Point them to this topic.

Would the man on the Clapham omnibus agree that pounding the button into submission is beyond the expected functionality of the device? I suspect so.

[Lozz196]

I had a not exactly the same thing when returning a bass to them that I just didn’t get on with. I dropped it off personally and the first thing said was “it’s got Rotosounds on it, they’re not the stock strings”. My reply was they were the strings that came on it - which they were. They then tried it out, tested it etc, and finally relented and reimbursed. Did make me think about purchasing online from them again.

[Elfrasho]

Short term right to reject is on the basis that that the fault is assumed present at the time of purchase. But the item still needs to be faulty. So its not entirely unreasonable for the supplier to request evidence that its faulty in the first place. Video seems a logical option. I've zero issues with that.

 

If they then use that to try get out accepting the return then that's a different matter.

 

 

[chriswareham]

3 hours ago, Elfrasho said:

Short term right to reject is on the basis that that the fault is assumed present at the time of purchase. But the item still needs to be faulty.

 

You can return an item within fourteen days of receiving it without needing to state a reason and without it needing to be faulty. It's the Consumer Contracts Regulations, which replaced the distance selling rules in 2014. If an item is bought sight unseen, by ordering over the phone, mail order or online, then with very few exceptions it's covered by the new regulations.

[Elfrasho]

24 minutes ago, chriswareham said:

 

You can return an item within fourteen days of receiving it without needing to state a reason and without it needing to be faulty. It's the Consumer Contracts Regulations, which replaced the distance selling rules in 2014. If an item is bought sight unseen, by ordering over the phone, mail order or online, then with very few exceptions it's covered by the new regulations.

 

Not for a full refund if the goods are of diminished value. I'd assume you've opened it and tried it. You've diminished the value. As you say, it's not a try before you buy. The fact that it is broken though gives you rights to a full refund with no deductions, and in fact, any real impact on you. Just provide basic proof of the fault and everyone moves on. Alternatively, let your piss boil, refuse to take a 30 second video, post a rant online, then travel to the shop instead.  I know what I'd do.

[LowB_FTW]

43 minutes ago, Elfrasho said:

let your piss boil

What a wonderful turn of phrase. 😂

 

Mark

[jrixn1]

2 hours ago, chriswareham said:

You can return an item within fourteen days of receiving it without needing to state a reason and without it needing to be faulty. It's the Consumer Contracts Regulations, which replaced the distance selling rules in 2014.

 

1 hour ago, Elfrasho said:

Not for a full refund if the goods are of diminished value. I'd assume you've opened it and tried it. You've diminished the value. As you say, it's not a try before you buy. The fact that it is broken though gives you rights to a full refund with no deductions, and in fact, any real impact on you.

 

There are at least two bits of relevant legislation.

 

For distance selling, the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013, regulation 29(1) allows you to return the item within 14 days, without a reason: "The consumer may cancel a distance or off-premises contract at any time in the cancellation period without giving any reason".

 

The consumer pays the cost of returning the goods - but note in regulation 34(2) that the retailer's refund must include the original outbound delivery cost: "The trader must reimburse any payment for delivery received from the consumer, unless the consumer expressly chose a kind of delivery costing more than the least expensive common and generally acceptable kind of delivery offered by the trader."

 

As for "try before you buy", the consumer is allowed "to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods", as long as it does not go beyond "the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop".  So for a bass guitar, you can unpack it and noodle about on it.  But you couldn't go and do a gig with it.

 

Separately, whether for distance or in-person selling, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 allows the short-term right to reject goods which are not of satisfactory quality, or unfit for purpose (e.g. faulty goods).  The time limit for that is given in section 22(3): "The time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject is the end of 30 days [...]".  In addition, the trader must pay for the return of the goods - section 20(8): "the trader must bear any reasonable costs of returning them [the rejected goods]".

 

It's important for both the consumer and retailer to know why you are returning the goods.  For example, if the goods arrive faulty but you simply return them as unwanted (under the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013) or without giving any reason, then when the retailer receives the faulty item back they will likely claim you damaged it and are therefore liable.

 

Finally, a reminder that any retailer's own T&C cannot overrule the above legislations.  So if the retailer's website clearly states "No returns" or "10% restocking fee applies", these things are not enforceable since they go against your statutory rights.

 

 

[asingardenof]

11 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

 

 

There are at least two bits of relevant legislation.

 

For distance selling, the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013, regulation 29(1) allows you to return the item within 14 days, without a reason: "The consumer may cancel a distance or off-premises contract at any time in the cancellation period without giving any reason".

 

The consumer pays the cost of returning the goods - but note in regulation 34(2) that the retailer's refund must include the original outbound delivery cost: "The trader must reimburse any payment for delivery received from the consumer, unless the consumer expressly chose a kind of delivery costing more than the least expensive common and generally acceptable kind of delivery offered by the trader."

 

As for "try before you buy", the consumer is allowed "to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods", as long as it does not go beyond "the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop".  So for a bass guitar, you can unpack it and noodle about on it.  But you couldn't go and do a gig with it.

 

Separately, whether for distance or in-person selling, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 allows the short-term right to reject goods which are not of satisfactory quality, or unfit for purpose (e.g. faulty goods).  The time limit for that is given in section 22(3): "The time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject is the end of 30 days [...]".  In addition, the trader must pay for the return of the goods - section 20(8): "the trader must bear any reasonable costs of returning them [the rejected goods]".

 

It's important for both the consumer and retailer to know why you are returning the goods.  For example, if the goods arrive faulty but you simply return them as unwanted (under the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013) or without giving any reason, then when the retailer receives the faulty item back they will likely claim you damaged it and are therefore liable.

 

Finally, a reminder that any retailer's own T&C cannot overrule the above legislations.  So if the retailer's website clearly states "No returns" or "10% restocking fee applies", these things are not enforceable since they go against your statutory rights.

 

 

Forgive my ignorance but how do warranties/guarantees offered by retailers/manufacturers relate to the 14/30-day periods mentioned here when they go beyond these periods?