PA For a "Pub" Band?

[Chienmortbb]

There is a lot of good advice here but also some conflicting thoughts. 
 

• Are all the band onboard
• Are you worried about size or weight of the equipment, 
• Do you  need multiple monitor feeds?
• How many input channels do/might you need?

The other thing to be considered is that more gear means more set up time, especially if you initially keep the backline. 

For a pub band, if you want in

So my two pennyworth, go for as big a mixer as you can. I have just sold a Soundcraft Ui16 that would do most things, mixer wise. That went for just over £300 and would do everything you need and more but Behringer RCF and others can be picked up for £300 or less. Secondhand. If you decide to put the drums through as well as all the instruments, go for one with at least 12 mic/line inputs on XLRs. An analogue desk may well suit you better but would be bigger and heavier for the same no of inputs/output due to physical channel strips. 
 

Now that would only leave £450 for speakers. There are some bargains out there but again look for a good brand second hand. You may have to wait a while for good ones that are within your budget but you can make offers on some. Having researched active speakers, there are some to avoid. Many of the Behringer ones have poor reliability, as do some of the Mackie Thump  series. Only look at the higher end Altos. The main thing though is to listen to them first. Don’t rule out passive speakers. I recently auditioned a few active ones but they were not as good as my 25+ year old Ramsa tops. 
 

Choose some uncompressed audio  tracks that you know well but not recent over compressed stuff. It is best to use CD from some years ago as modern  is compressed to hell. Vocals are important, especially around the crossover point. The last time I checked, Spotify uses lossy  compression but but Apple Music uses a lossless compression method. 

[jrixn1]

Remember to budget for cables.  A significant percentage (gonna guess 20%) of your budget is going to be on cables...

[dave_bass5]

I’ve finally got all my band to all go in to the mixer (other than most of the drums). This was mainly for those of us using IEM’s. 
When i played bass i always went through the PA for more dispersion, especially in a packed room. 

I have run the band through our PA a couple of times and it sounded really good, but those were just me experimenting at sound check. My worry is that my guitarists have a habit of turning up during the gig, and with no one out front keeping our mix in check i can imagine the guitars through the Pa could get overwhelming. It’s bad enough the on stage levels going up. 
I’m working on it, but it’s a work in progress. 

Edited February 5 by dave_bass5

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

Remember to budget for cables.  A significant percentage (gonna guess 20%) of your budget is going to be on cables...

I can quote for that (with apologies to Hall and Oates).

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

 My worry is that my guitarists have a habit of turning up during the gig, and with no one out front keeping our mix in check i can imagine the guitars through the Pa could get overwhelming.

When mixing from the stage I run the same mix in my monitors as out front, so I can hear if something is off. I also have a mixer with full LED output level metering on every channel, so what I might not hear I can see.

[dave_bass5]

36 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

When mixing from the stage I run the same mix in my monitors as out front, so I can hear if something is off. I also have a mixer with full LED output level metering on every channel, so what I might not hear I can see.

Yeah, i get that. 

I have a full mix in my IEM’s and do quite often need to ride a guitar fader or two. I also have an iPad with Mixing Station sitting on my keyboard so i can keep an eye on things, but its more things that i don’t need to be worried about. 

Ive been on and on at them for a couple of years to try and sort their levles out, but its still not even enough for me to not worry about it. 

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

Yeah, i get that. 

I have a full mix in my IEM’s and do quite often need to ride a guitar fader or two. I also have an iPad with Mixing Station sitting on my keyboard so i can keep an eye on things, but its more things that i don’t need to be worried about. 

Ive been on and on at them for a couple of years to try and sort their levles out, but its still not even enough for me to not worry about it. 

A soundguy a few years back said he generally has to tell guitarists to turn down and bassists to turn up. Think that says it all 🤔

[dave_bass5]

5 minutes ago, Beedster said:

A soundguy a few years back said he generally has to tell guitarists to turn down and bassists to turn up. Think that says it all 🤔

EXACTLY what i have to do all the time. Our bassist tends to use the volume knob on his bass to go quieter and very often forgets to turn back up (doesn’t grasp the use less force in your fingers technique).

Very frustrating, but these days i monitor his level on the mixer and will turn him up FOH if i feel he has dropped too low (plus the on stage level will go down as an indication)

[Rosie C]

On 04/02/2024 at 13:25, Pirellithecat said:

My biggest "win" was adding a single Sub.  Even in small venues this makes a surprisingly big difference to the sound.   

 

Likewise. We have a Fender Passport PA - not for everyone, but perfect for two mid-50's women playing folk music. The boost it gets from plugging an old Orange bass combo amp (1x12", 35W) into the sub output is remarkable and didn't cost anything. 

[Chienmortbb]

57 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

but perfect for two mid-50's women playing folk music.

All human life really is here!

 

58 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

The boost it gets from plugging an old Orange bass combo amp (1x12", 35W) into the sub output is remarkable and didn't cost anything. 

It ain't wrong if it sounds right.

[PaulWarning]

in an ideal world everything would got through the PA to a mixing desk, and in a bigger venue that's the case, but small pub gigs aren't the ideal world, you can be in a small space in a pub with punters already there having a drink, spending a long time loading in and out, setting up and sound checking can be a pain in the neck for everybody.

We've used a PA (no subs) just for vocals and kick drum for nearly 20 years and we keep getting gigs so it can't be that bad

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Maybe that's why you're still playing small pub gigs? 🤔

 

I get what you're saying, it is a lot more work to run everything in the PA. I've done so since the 1980s because no matter how small or large the venue I want to sound as good as possible. As for sound checking I hardly do any. Auto EQ sets up the system to the room in a matter of seconds, and since I can see what's happening with the board even with the mains power amps off I'm not bothering patrons either. The only thing I spend much time on is the monitors, as I know if they're right the FOH will be right too.

[mep]

We play small to medium pubs. Generally we put vocals, guitar and kick through all the time. In medium pubs I go through too but in small pubs I'll just go through the sub to reinforce the bottom end as my stsge volume projects enough out front. Vocals and guitar in the monitor, which is a single powered unit with extension speaker. Sound check by walking out front whilst playing and agree the mix with the singer who has a wireless mic. Mixing desk has built in effects, 3 band eq with mid sweep per channel, enough channels/ inputs. Powered tops and 1 powered sub.

Edited February 6 by mep

[dave_bass5]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

in an ideal world everything would got through the PA to a mixing desk, and in a bigger venue that's the case, but small pub gigs aren't the ideal world, you can be in a small space in a pub with punters already there having a drink, spending a long time loading in and out, setting up and sound checking can be a pain in the neck for everybody.

We've used a PA (no subs) just for vocals and kick drum for nearly 20 years and we keep getting gigs so it can't be that bad

Gigged almost every weekend for 15 years like this. Never did us any harm.

Im sure we could have sounded better if we had all gone through the PA, but you don’t get that many repeat booking and glowing reviews if you sound crap.

 

[thebrig]

3 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

in an ideal world everything would got through the PA to a mixing desk, and in a bigger venue that's the case, but small pub gigs aren't the ideal world, you can be in a small space in a pub with punters already there having a drink, spending a long time loading in and out, setting up and sound checking can be a pain in the neck for everybody.

We've used a PA (no subs) just for vocals and kick drum for nearly 20 years and we keep getting gigs so it can't be that bad

This is what we want to do, we are all experienced musicians in out 60's and 70's and have no intention of playing larger venues anymore, we just want to enjoy playing music to a decent standard in local pubs, and to be honest, the thought of loading loads of heavy PA gear in and out of pubs and spending a lot of time putting everything through the PA just doesn't appeal to us.

 

Our drummer plays a small acoustic drum kit, both guitarists play through small valve amps, so we think we can create a decent sound by just putting the vocals and kick through the PA, which is what we have all done in the past with our previous bands.

 

I think what I really need to know is what sort of PA system should we look for to play in pubs, but have enough power to cover the occasional larger venue.

 

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, thebrig said:

the occasional larger venue

Would normally have a proper PA these days if a vocal PA would not cover it.

 

You could add a sub to bump up the kick and your regular amps will suffice for a party of 300. Don't forget your earplugs.

 

You don't need hifi most of the time. A racket is what most people want.

 

A drummer blazing away with a healthy right foot is freakin' loud in any enclosed space you would call a bar with a band as opposed to an entertainment venue with a bar. By the time you add vocals over that, and some bass and guitars that are not determined to be the loudest thing by 10dB, you are not short of volume.

 

Fidelity not great, but to get into the hifi realm you need the drummer to wind it all right back and everyone to play weenie amps on stands pointed at their own heads, all mic'd up, or go IEM.

 

It only takes one deaf prick needing to play loud on stage to cascade into bedlam. Or a drummer that can't do 'energetic' without smashing stuff.

 

Where is your mileage at?

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, thebrig said:

small valve amps

Can still take your head off. How small?

 

I used to play with a guy that had the Orange Tiny Terror on the low setting into a 212. 5w or 7w I forget, less than 10w! He was quite loud enough for a bar room just by himself. I used a 210 and drummer had dynamics for Africa.

 

We would get a better idea of how much of a racket you guys are intending if you tell what the bass rig is.

[PaulWarning]

25 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

 

 

A drummer blazing away with a healthy right foot is freakin' loud in any enclosed space you would call a bar with a band as opposed to an entertainment venue with a bar. By the time you add vocals over that, and some bass and guitars that are not determined to be the loudest thing by 10dB, you are not short of volume.

 

 

this is true, our drummer is loud, I know some on here will say a good drummer can control the dynamics, but in all other aspects he's good and good drummers don't grow on trees, so by the time we've got a good mix we are loud in an average size room, micing up the drums for pub gig would be ridiculous 

[tauzero]

4 hours ago, thebrig said:

This is what we want to do, we are all experienced musicians in out 60's and 70's and have no intention of playing larger venues anymore, we just want to enjoy playing music to a decent standard in local pubs, and to be honest, the thought of loading loads of heavy PA gear in and out of pubs and spending a lot of time putting everything through the PA just doesn't appeal to us.

 

I'm the one lugging the PA, and storing it for that matter. I've got a 10kg limit on any single item, so bass rig is a GR Bass AT800 combo, FOH is a pair of Alto TS408s, and monitors are a pair of Alto TS308s. Just vocals and sometimes one guitar going through them.

[thebrig]

We are a covers band playing mostly 60's and 70's classic rock, nothing too heavy.

 

Both our guitarists play small valve amps and know how to use them properly, they are on stands pointing upwards, they don't play loud, they play with a lot of feeling, our drummer has a soft touch, and me? I'm often told to turn up.

 

I use a wireless system and regularly go out front to keep a check on the levels, and I always make a point of asking the pub/venue manager to tell me if we are too loud, because as a band, we do appreciate that bar staff need to be able to hear what the customers are ordering at the bar, and the punters like to be able to hear each other talking without having to shout loudly at each other, and we find that this attitude is appreciated by the venues and we usually get repeat bookings.

Because we feel that our years of experience has resulted in knowing our equipment well, and how to get the best out of it without blasting the punter's ear drums, we think that we only need to put the vocals and kick through the PA to achieve a good sound.

 

Despite our years of playing between us, none of us are very knowledgeable regarding PA systems, which is why we are after some advice on the type of PA that would suit our needs, and hopefully light enough that five ageing muso's can carry in and out, and set up without too much hassle.😉

 

This is the gear:
Guitarist 1: Roland Blues Cube 30w  Tube Amp
Guitarist 2: Yerasov GTA-15 15w Tube Amp
Bass: Fender Rumble 800 Combo

Drums: Various kits, but he is a soft hitting drummer

Edited February 7 by thebrig

[Phil Starr]

On 04/02/2024 at 09:43, thebrig said:

We are a new band that hopes to be gigging sometime soon, our singer has a great voice but hasn't gigged for over 20 years, so he has no PA at the moment.

 

We will be playing pubs mainly, and the odd small club occasionally, with probably just the vocals and kick going through it.

 

None of us have that much knowledge of PA systems, so our question is:

 

How much power do we need, and roughly how much do we need to spend? We will probably go down the second-hand route.

And I note two guitars, bass, drums and vocals. I'm assuming you have back line and some bits and pieces like mic's and stands. I'm not going to try to tell you how to do it, that's probably another question and another thread. You'll need to make some decisions before you buy though. So as a minimum you'll need a couple of speakers, mixer and amps, stands to hold up the speakers and all the associated leads. Just like bass you can buy separate speakers and amps or a combo with both built in. In PA you can buy active speakers (the combo version) or separates passive PA speakers and amps. You can even buy a mixer with the amps built in. Almost everyone buying now will be buying active speakers with a passive PA mixer. You'll also need to think about monitoring.

 

You ask what sort of power you'll need, that's a bit of a minefield not least because the manufacturers are in an arms race of exaggeration (lying?) about the power they rate their gear at, so much so that you should probably ignore any power figures. I'd say just go for a couple of the best active 12" speakers you can afford, most 12" speakers can only handle aroudn 300W before overloading so If you go for any of the decent brands they are actually only going to be running up to that sort of level before they start to distort and most will be plenty for the average UK pub. You can go for 10" or !5" units but 10's will probably struggle for most bands and 15's are just unnecessary weight (I have 15's, trust me here, I used to run 12's!) A pair of used but good 12" active PA speakers are going to cost you £300-450 for a pair and if you are lucky you'll get the stands thrown in. The good news is that there isn't a lot of rubbish out there and even some of the cheaper brands can sound OK.

 

Before you choose your speakers however have a think about your mixer. You can fill a room from your backline and go for vocals only through PA and if you are goodat PA even get a reasonable sound but it's tough to do and the on'stage sound levels are going to be damaging to your hearing. What the audience will hear will be poorer too as the vocal mic's witll be picking up all that noise and distorting the audiences sound. Even if you don't do it from day one you'll eventually want to put more through the PA and turn down the on-stage levels. That means you'll need channels for everything so you need to buy a mixer that will grow with you. Inputs for all the instruments and mics and probably at least three channels for drums. What I'm leading up to is that if you can possibly afford it buy a digital mixer, they offer everything you need into a compact package and for the same facilities they work out much cheaper. The reality is that they will offer so much more, More than enough channels for any pub band, comprehensive tone controls on every input, flexible effects on every channel, graphic equaliser on the output to compensate for room acoustics and deal with feedback and a lot of automation to help you set up quickly, at a minimum you can save the settings that work and use them again at every gig. All I do at most gigs now is recall my settings and adjust the master volume. You'll also have an output so each band member can have their own monitoring if they want it. Most of them will record the gig for you and let you mix it down later. You'll also be able to mix from anywhere in the room. If you are starting from scratch they are probably simpler to learn than an ana logue desk.

 

[Beedster]

Setting up an all-band PA for small gigs is a PITA, means more time and more work, and IME can piss off a few band members who are more used to plug and play. But it's worth it for the both consistency of sound and the control it gives you over overall volume. The test for me has always been punter's phone or similar crude recordings of gigs; in the old pre-PA days a phone recording would often give the impression that only one or two instruments were playing, at least it would never pick up a decent whole band sound. With all of us in the PA every recording sounds like a band (and the levels of certain players stay as they were in sound check) 👍

[thebrig]

11 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

And I note two guitars, bass, drums and vocals. I'm assuming you have back line and some bits and pieces like mic's and stands. I'm not going to try to tell you how to do it, that's probably another question and another thread. You'll need to make some decisions before you buy though. So as a minimum you'll need a couple of speakers, mixer and amps, stands to hold up the speakers and all the associated leads. Just like bass you can buy separate speakers and amps or a combo with both built in. In PA you can buy active speakers (the combo version) or separates passive PA speakers and amps. You can even buy a mixer with the amps built in. Almost everyone buying now will be buying active speakers with a passive PA mixer. You'll also need to think about monitoring.

 

You ask what sort of power you'll need, that's a bit of a minefield not least because the manufacturers are in an arms race of exaggeration (lying?) about the power they rate their gear at, so much so that you should probably ignore any power figures. I'd say just go for a couple of the best active 12" speakers you can afford, most 12" speakers can only handle aroudn 300W before overloading so If you go for any of the decent brands they are actually only going to be running up to that sort of level before they start to distort and most will be plenty for the average UK pub. You can go for 10" or !5" units but 10's will probably struggle for most bands and 15's are just unnecessary weight (I have 15's, trust me here, I used to run 12's!) A pair of used but good 12" active PA speakers are going to cost you £300-450 for a pair and if you are lucky you'll get the stands thrown in. The good news is that there isn't a lot of rubbish out there and even some of the cheaper brands can sound OK.

 

Before you choose your speakers however have a think about your mixer. You can fill a room from your backline and go for vocals only through PA and if you are goodat PA even get a reasonable sound but it's tough to do and the on'stage sound levels are going to be damaging to your hearing. What the audience will hear will be poorer too as the vocal mic's witll be picking up all that noise and distorting the audiences sound. Even if you don't do it from day one you'll eventually want to put more through the PA and turn down the on-stage levels. That means you'll need channels for everything so you need to buy a mixer that will grow with you. Inputs for all the instruments and mics and probably at least three channels for drums. What I'm leading up to is that if you can possibly afford it buy a digital mixer, they offer everything you need into a compact package and for the same facilities they work out much cheaper. The reality is that they will offer so much more, More than enough channels for any pub band, comprehensive tone controls on every input, flexible effects on every channel, graphic equaliser on the output to compensate for room acoustics and deal with feedback and a lot of automation to help you set up quickly, at a minimum you can save the settings that work and use them again at every gig. All I do at most gigs now is recall my settings and adjust the master volume. You'll also have an output so each band member can have their own monitoring if they want it. Most of them will record the gig for you and let you mix it down later. You'll also be able to mix from anywhere in the room. If you are starting from scratch they are probably simpler to learn than an ana logue desk.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Setting up an all-band PA for small gigs is a PITA, means more time and more work, and IME can piss off a few band members who are more used to plug and play. But it's worth it for the both consistency of sound and the control it gives you over overall volume. The test for me has always been punter's phone or similar crude recordings of gigs; in the old pre-PA days a phone recording would often give the impression that only one or two instruments were playing, at least it would never pick up a decent whole band sound. With all of us in the PA every recording sounds like a band (and the levels of certain players stay as they were in sound check) 👍

Thanks for your advice guys, I'm beginning to think that we need to have a re-think? 🫢 maybe we should consider putting the whole band through the PA, so I will put it to them.

 

I guess that once we've done it a few times then we will get used to it, especially if we all so our bit to make it easier. 

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Before you choose your speakers however have a think about your mixer. You can fill a room from your backline and go for vocals only through PA and if you are goodat PA even get a reasonable sound but it's tough to do and the on'stage sound levels are going to be damaging to your hearing. What the audience will hear will be poorer too as the vocal mic's witll be picking up all that noise and distorting the audiences sound. Even if you don't do it from day one you'll eventually want to put more through the PA and turn down the on-stage levels. That means you'll need channels for everything so you need to buy a mixer that will grow with you. Inputs for all the instruments and mics and probably at least three channels for drums. What I'm leading up to is that if you can possibly afford it buy a digital mixer, they offer everything you need into a compact package and for the same facilities they work out much cheaper. The reality is that they will offer so much more, More than enough channels for any pub band, comprehensive tone controls on every input, flexible effects on every channel, graphic equaliser on the output to compensate for room acoustics and deal with feedback and a lot of automation to help you set up quickly, at a minimum you can save the settings that work and use them again at every gig. All I do at most gigs now is recall my settings and adjust the master volume. You'll also have an output so each band member can have their own monitoring if they want it. Most of them will record the gig for you and let you mix it down later. You'll also be able to mix from anywhere in the room. If you are starting from scratch they are probably simpler to learn than an ana logue desk.

 

 

I think that about sums it up as far as my understanding and experience goes, great post @Phil Starr

 

Phil, could you recommend one or more desks given the above?

 

[Chienmortbb]

8 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

I'm the one lugging the PA, and storing it for that matter. I've got a 10kg limit on any single item, so bass rig is a GR Bass AT800 combo, FOH is a pair of Alto TS408s, and monitors are a pair of Alto TS308s. Just vocals and sometimes one guitar going through them.

I have just retired my passive PA tops and set an 11Kg limit per item. My bass cab is 11Kg and I am looking  for tops under 11Kg tops.