PA For a "Pub" Band?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

4 hours ago, thebrig said:

I'm beginning to think that we need to have a re-think? 🫢 maybe we should consider putting the whole band through the PA, so I will put it to them.

There will be times when you won't want to bother, but I'd approach it with the attitude that it's better to have the capability and not need it than to need the capability and not have it. That mainly falls on the mixer.

[JPJ]

On 05/02/2024 at 14:37, dave_bass5 said:

I’ve finally got all my band to all go in to the mixer (other than most of the drums). This was mainly for those of us using IEM’s. 
When i played bass i always went through the PA for more dispersion, especially in a packed room. 

I have run the band through our PA a couple of times and it sounded really good, but those were just me experimenting at sound check. My worry is that my guitarists have a habit of turning up during the gig, and with no one out front keeping our mix in check i can imagine the guitars through the Pa could get overwhelming. It’s bad enough the on stage levels going up. 
I’m working on it, but it’s a work in progress. 

My solution is a good hard knee compression on the guitards channels. Yes they can still turn their back line up, but it’s not going to mess with my FOH sound. Although to be fair, since all four guitards I work with across my two bands have amps with DI’s the problem of the FOH signal changing with a back line change has largely gone away. 

[JPJ]

On 05/02/2024 at 12:15, jrixn1 said:

Remember to budget for cables.  A significant percentage (gonna guess 20%) of your budget is going to be on cables...

….and stands, and cases etc etc

[thebrig]

4 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

There will be times when you won't want to bother, but I'd approach it with the attitude that it's better to have the capability and not need it than to need the capability and not have it. That mainly falls on the mixer.

Thanks, that's sounds like great advice.

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, thebrig said:

Thanks, that's sounds like great advice.

My lot laugh at how many cables I bring. They were not laughing last week when the lead guitarist's only cable and a month ago, when the Rhythm Guitarist's mic cable was safely in his garage when we were 40 miles away at a gig.

[Phil Starr]

21 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

I think that about sums it up as far as my understanding and experience goes, great post @Phil Starr

 

Phil, could you recommend one or more desks given the above?

 

There's a good thread already on this forum and another one elsewhwere. The only two I've actually used are the Behringer XR18 and the RCF M18 now discontinued, which was what I bought. It's hard at the bottom end of the market to go past the Behringers. Re- reading your posts here the XR16 would probably do all you want and the XR 18 would cover every eventuality. At this price point I think the only other option at the moment is the Soundcraft Ui series, possibly the Zooms but they are more geared for studio and podcasting though some people are successfully using them for gigs.

 

[Phil Starr]

On 07/02/2024 at 07:40, thebrig said:

We are a covers band playing mostly 60's and 70's classic rock, nothing too heavy.

 

Both our guitarists play small valve amps and know how to use them properly, they are on stands pointing upwards, they don't play loud, they play with a lot of feeling, our drummer has a soft touch, and me? I'm often told to turn up.

 

I use a wireless system and regularly go out front to keep a check on the levels, and I always make a point of asking the pub/venue manager to tell me if we are too loud, because as a band, we do appreciate that bar staff need to be able to hear what the customers are ordering at the bar, and the punters like to be able to hear each other talking without having to shout loudly at each other, and we find that this attitude is appreciated by the venues and we usually get repeat bookings.

Because we feel that our years of experience has resulted in knowing our equipment well, and how to get the best out of it without blasting the punter's ear drums, we think that we only need to put the vocals and kick through the PA to achieve a good sound.

 

Despite our years of playing between us, none of us are very knowledgeable regarding PA systems, which is why we are after some advice on the type of PA that would suit our needs, and hopefully light enough that five ageing muso's can carry in and out, and set up without too much hassle.😉

 

This is the gear:
Guitarist 1: Roland Blues Cube 30w  Tube Amp
Guitarist 2: Yerasov GTA-15 15w Tube Amp
Bass: Fender Rumble 800 Combo

Drums: Various kits, but he is a soft hitting drummer

Sorry though you put this up just before i posted my initial response and i missed it. It's a very clear picture of your band. I've seen many bands like yous managing with just a vocal PA and sounding pretty good. It's the hard way of doing things but for years was just about the only option, PA's werent up to much else within most bands budgets and it's the years of experience that make it work "Because we feel that our years of experience has resulted in knowing our equipment well, and how to get the best out of it without blasting the punter's ear drums," I'd never discount the importance of experience so if you wanted  to stick with plan A there are loads of really cheap analogue mixers you could use to make a start with gigging. It sounds like the PA is going to be your problem though, it usually devolves to the bassist

 

I'd stick to the advice of a digital mixer though but maybe reduce the strength of that recommendation. You can achieve what you want more cheaply but it would be better this way. It'll make your job easier. The digital mixers will be familiar to you in that they are usually stage box format. The same form as the lump on the end of a snake with all the sockets on. For your band members they just plug their leads into this. From your point of view you get something that looks like a tradiutional mixer but on your tablet or laptop screen. If you can use a mobile 'phone you can use the mixer.

 

This all simplifies the work flow at the gigs. Switch on the mixer, checking everything is muted and recall the settings from your best ever gig, one button to press and all the controls on screen jump back to where you want them. As people plug in you'll see that everything is metered on screen so no need to go round shouting 'one-two' into mics. If somebody has a dodgy lead or a broken amp you can see that on the meters too usually, all without making a sound through the PA. You can take your tablet or laptop to the back of the room or a convenient table when you are ready to sound check and do any adjustments without having to go back and forth to the mixer. You can even ask most mixers to eq for the room. Your life will be easier even if you decide to go for vocal PA only. The mic pre-amps in most digital mixers are better than similarly priced analogue ones so there can be a sound advantage too. It's a win even if you never do all the hundreds of extra things available to you.

 

Where it will really work for you though is if you do start getting bigger venues, you won't be loud enough with your current gear and it's a lot cheaper to have a capable PA do the heavy lifting than to have to change the backline and asking the drummer to have to work harder on a bigger kit. If you buy the right kit it's reassuring to know miking up what  you have can do the job and as the person mixing you can add in extra functions without having to learn a new system when you are ready to make improvements. You can probably buy a cheap used analogue mixer for £100 and a digital mixer used for £300. The Behringer XR12 is £325 (with just enough channels) at Thomann, a used XR16 will do what you want and an XR18 would give you a lot of spare capacity you'll probably never use but at only marginal extra cost. If you want simple and reliable there's an RCF M18 on eBay at the moment. Have a quick look at Soundcraft too.

 

 

 

 

[Jack]

Phil brings up two or three times that, if one does get a digital mixer, it can be beneficial in many ways even if you don't use a lot of the more advanced features. However, IME it actually starts you down a path to using them.

 

Yes, a digital mixer has a lot of channels usually, yes it can instantly recall settings, yes it's easy to meter and monitor. My hard rock band quickly outgrew the ancient desk, Maplin power amps and passive 1x15" tops we'd used for the first six months or so. We agreed to buy an active Alto system of tops and subs and whilst the band plan was just to keep the analogue Soundcraft desk I took it upon myself to treat us to the then-pretty-new Behringer XR18. What we found is that, because of all of the features that could really be used to tighten the sound up, we started putting more and more through the PA. It helped that we were already bringing a more capable speaker system too, which meant that the guitarists could bring smaller amps, but even just in terms of the mixer the eq, highpassing, dynamics processing and in built effects meant that over about 3 or 4 years we just started putting everything through and we slowly became an 'everything through the pa' band. Because we could do more monitor mixes it meant that the drummer could finally hear what was really going on, so they played better. We finally had enough channels for us all to sing backing vocals. We can multi track record to a laptop and listen back to the gig after the fact, allowing us to work on both our sound and our performance. I wired in a music player permanently so that the second the set is over the drummer just leans over and instantly the break music comes on. That makes us look super slick.

 

When we ask "what's the best bass for metal?" the real answer is "it doesn't matter". Most gear choices we make are more to do with want, gas, lust and epeen than anything else. But the revolution in pa, both in terms of affordable digital mixers and small lightweight active speakers, has really been transformative in a way that I don't think anything else has been recently.

 

 

Edited February 8 by Jack

[TimR]

If you're just playing pubs you only need vocals and kick drum, possibly guitar.

You need to be able to have a separate monitor just for vocals. The band doesn't need any extra kick or guitar messing up stage volumes.

 

The PA is just bringing a bit of presence over the top as kick drum and guitar will get absorbed by front row of anyone dancing. 

 

However, you're not trying to fill a pub with sound, if people want to listen to the band or dance they can come forwards. You don't want to turn the pub into a concert venue.

 

 

If you're regularly playing big functions then go the full works with a big mixer, but really you can hire that kind of thing in for the odd big gig.

 

Yes, sure, lots of bass players seem to revel in owning a PA and carting it around and setting it up and operating it during the gig. But you will be the one doing all this. 

 

Nowadays I prefer to turn up with my bass gear, plug in and play, and concentrate on my own performance. 

Edited February 8 by TimR

[Lozz196]

In my old punk covers band we just used to have a vocal PA with each of us having our own monitor (we all sang). For a while we added to the PA and put everything through it to "spread the sound" but not to make us louder. A good few people who had watched us for years mentioned that it made us sound too smooth & professional and detracted from the punk music we played. So we went back to the original format of vox only PA. 

[BassAdder60]

Personally for the majority of U.K. pub gigs no one will care if you go Vox only into the PA or very costly rig and whole band is in it. 
 

For £750 you could get a reasonable rig but try and stick to 12” tops in the budget brands Alto etc or aim for Yamaha or similar quality secondhand 

 

Or go very old school and heavy old passive Peavey cabs, power amp and mixer and a floor monitor 

 

A ton of old Peavey rigs kicking around and still sound good enough for a pub band. 
 

Dont forget lights too are an important part of a live show even in a pub 

Edited February 8 by BassAdder60

[dave_bass5]

It’s very easy to get caught up in the gear obsession on here and other forums. 
There is always a lot of good advice, but people that have progressed to a higher level seem to find it hard to put themselves in someone else’s shoes and can’t think at a lower level. 
I’m sure we have all gigged with bare minimum in our lives, and see bands still doing that even now. It’s a tried and tested way of doing things if you're on a budget or don’t want all the extra cost and complications that come with getting more advanced gear. 
No band needs a digital desk like the XR18 etc, even though it’s a real eye opener when you do get something like this. But we all survived well enough before they came along. 

Personally yeah, I’d never want to go back to an old style desk if i was in charge of the band, but having done well over 1000 gigs with nothing more than a small desk for vocals/kick and a bit of bass (before moving to keys and needing a better system) i can see that it’s not essential to go for a more advanced set up. 
A couple of mid range powered speakers and a no frills desk will do well enough. 

Edited February 8 by dave_bass5

[thebrig]

I really do appreciate all the advice guys, so thanks everyone.

 

As stated earlier, we are all "old gits" so we want to keep everything as simple as possible, and although it's me asking the questions on behalf of our band, I certainly won't be taking charge of the PA, I've always been a plug and play man, and that's the way it's staying, I've always left the PA to the singer to setup. 😉

 

My last gigging band consisted of vocals, guitar, drums, and bass, we had an old powered mixer and two beaten up passive speakers, only vocals went through the PA, and despite our setup, experienced musicians watching us often said to us that our sound was amazing, every instrument could be heard, and we sounded really tight, no bottom end boom, etc.

 

So what we are thinking now is to maybe get a couple of Mackie Thump212 12" Active PA Speakers, with Stands, Stand Bag & Cables for £772.00

This will obviously eat up all our budget, and then add a bit more for a mixer.

 

Do you think these would be a good choice, and if so, recommendations for a half decent mixer would be appreciated?

 

https://www.musicmatter.co.uk/mackie-thump212-pair-with-stands-stand-bag-cables?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAlJKuBhAdEiwAnZb7lTiQ7M79HSIjaqMoylxTVUV5J02P5dxaCXvWw4t5bBlUpZX-595tsxoC5WkQAvD_BwE

 

Edited February 8 by thebrig

[BassAdder60]

9 minutes ago, thebrig said:

I really do appreciate all the advice guys, so thanks everyone.

 

As stated earlier, we are all "old gits" so we want to keep everything as simple as possible, and although it's me asking the questions on behalf of our band, I certainly won't be taking charge of the PA, I've always been a plug and play man, and that's the way it's staying, I've always left the PA to the singer to setup. 😉

 

My last gigging band consisted of vocals, guitar, drums, and bass, we had an old powered mixer and two beaten up passive speakers, only vocals went through the PA, and despite our setup, experienced musicians watching us often said to us that our sound was amazing, every instrument could be heard, and we sounded really tight, no bottom end boom, etc.

 

So what we are thinking now is to maybe get a couple of Mackie Thump212 12" Active PA Speakers, with Stands, Stand Bag & Cables for £772.00

This will obviously eat up all our budget, and then add a bit more for a mixer.

 

Do you think these would be a good choice, and if so, recommendations for a half decent mixer would be appreciated?

 

https://www.musicmatter.co.uk/mackie-thump212-pair-with-stands-stand-bag-cables?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAlJKuBhAdEiwAnZb7lTiQ7M79HSIjaqMoylxTVUV5J02P5dxaCXvWw4t5bBlUpZX-595tsxoC5WkQAvD_BwE

 

Looks good enough and imagine the 1400w is peak power not RMS but still should be ample 

For mixers cheap end look at Behringer as they are good value 

 

Get as many channels as you can 

 

Minimum 8ch and ideally one with built in FX 

Edited February 8 by BassAdder60

[dave_bass5]

My drummer uses one of those as his floor monitor (won’t use IEM’s). It sounds very powerful but not as clear as my Yamaha DBX12 (which i don’t use anymore). Both are more than good enough for this job though, as ok has you don’t push them too hard. 

While some will hate the idea of a Behringer mixer being mentioned, they are very good value. My old band brought one in 2011 and my current band was using up to last year without it ever failing or having issues. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Where the circuitry is concerned Behringer is perfectly OK. Where they cheap out is on connectors, both external jacks and internal ribbon connectors, so they're not as physically durable as many more expensive options.

[dave_bass5]

45 minutes ago, BassAdder60 said:

Looks good enough and imagine the 1400w is peak power not RMS but still should be ample 

For mixers cheap end look at Behringer as they are good value 

 

Get as many channels as you can 

 

Minimum 8ch and ideally one with built in FX 

Thats the exact one we have. Been very reliable. 

[dave_bass5]

13 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Where the circuitry is concerned Behringer is perfectly OK. Where they cheap out is on connectors, both external jacks and internal ribbon connectors, so they're not as physically durable as many more expensive options.

Yeah, obviously made at a much smaller budget than the ones they copy. 

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

Yeah, obviously made at a much smaller budget than the ones they copy. 

Behringer get a bad press as a copier, but many of their spruces are designed in house and do not copy anyone. The power amplifier section of many of their older speakers were based on the same NXP chips as the earlier Mackie Thumps. Most of the low to mid-speakers use the Analog Devices DSP chips that are of a higher quality than the rest of the speakers/circuitry but are really there to make up for the deficiencies in the low-cost drivers.

 

Although I am not a fan of the Behringer Stage Box Digital Mixers, for a few reasons, but they have almost created the market and Soundcraft, RCF and Allen and Heath probably benefit from that.