PMT - physical shops going downhill?

[sammybee]

I like to support my local shops where I can, when they sell the things I need to purchase - and am happy paying a (small) premium for this convenience

 

Went to PMT in Northampton this Sunday, looking to spend £2-2.5k - staff seemed a bit disinterested, shop looks a bit unloved too

 

Get the feeling they are just waiting for the axe to fall, which would be a great shame and loss for the town

 

Anybody else get the same vibe from their physical shops?

[Supernaut]

The PMT in Northampton felt like that ten years ago. 

[sammybee]

7 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

The PMT in Northampton felt like that ten years ago. 

It's never been the best, I agree, but it seemed much worse this weekend

[John777]

I visted the Birmingham PMT , November last year, very busy store, staff were quite pro active asking me if I needed help etc, was a Saturday as well. Got out with my wallet intact..

[geoham]

I've never been to a PMT, there's not one near me.
However, I visited Guitar Guitar in Glasgow a few weeks ago. In the not too distant past, the downstairs section was all basses - but now one of the walls has been invaded with six-string guitars.... definitely a significantly smaller selection of basses this time. It felt a little understaffed for a busy Saturday, just one guy in the bass department - who to his credit was very knowledgeable and helpful. 

 

I think overall, retail is struggling on a few fronts at the moment. In particular, rising costs, decreased footfall and much tighter margins to remain competitive against some of the online giants.

[sammybee]

12 minutes ago, geoham said:

I think overall, retail is struggling on a few fronts at the moment. In particular, rising costs, decreased footfall and much tighter margins to remain competitive against some of the online giants.

If it is struggling, the very least they could do would be interested in potential customers ... and maybe keep the shop floor looking a bit better? Those two thing they can do for nowt!

[geoham]

3 minutes ago, sammybee said:

If it is struggling, the very least they could do would be interested in potential customers ... and maybe keep the shop floor looking a bit better? Those two thing they can do for nowt!

A very fair point. I worked in retail when I was young, a large clothing chain. We were forever cleaning, sorting stuff and rearranging the floor when it was quiet. My wife and I often notice that shops now often look like they haven't been dusted for weeks, and and too often there's nobody available or interesting in serving customers. 

[BigRedX]

Just over a year ago I was in the market for a keyboard controller for my DAW. I'd done my research on-line, but thought it would be nice to get some hand-on experience of a few before I made my final decision. We have a fairly large PMT here in Nottingham so the next time I was in town I went in. This is the first time I'd been there since COVID, and the store was looking very sorry with loads a spaces on the walls that used to be full of guitars. The keyboard/high-tech area was cordoned off with a note informing me to ask if I wanted to try anything. I was told that someone would be along shortly to help me. I passed the time waiting by looking at the much reduced selection of guitars and basses and after about 10 minutes and when no help was forth-coming I left. 

 

I bought my controller on-line from Amazon.

[Lozz196]

I’ve always had pretty decent service in PMT Northampton. Admittedly last time I was in there was late 2022 so not exactly recent but was good all the same.

[BassAdder60]

6 hours ago, sammybee said:

I like to support my local shops where I can, when they sell the things I need to purchase - and am happy paying a (small) premium for this convenience

 

Went to PMT in Northampton this Sunday, looking to spend £2-2.5k - staff seemed a bit disinterested, shop looks a bit unloved too

 

Get the feeling they are just waiting for the axe to fall, which would be a great shame and loss for the town

 

Anybody else get the same vibe from their physical shops?

With that kind of money I would be booking a visit to Peach Music and it would be worth the drive !

A quality shop with great stock and good staff. I’ve been into and used most of the big named stores and none come close to Peach, maybe Anderson’s is second best for an actual store but that’s too far away 

 

PMT are probably the worse and I wouldn’t think of going to them unless I was desperate for some strings !

The stock and QC is woeful in my experience and I’ve used them on and off over the last ten years 

Edited February 13 by BassAdder60

[Norris]

7 hours ago, sammybee said:

Anybody else get the same vibe from their physical shops?

Sorry, I can't remember that long ago. The only local shop still surviving sells entry-level gear that is of no interest to me. It's a sad state of affairs, but I think that ship sailed a long time ago

[sammybee]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Just over a year ago I was in the market for a keyboard controller for my DAW. I'd done my research on-line, but thought it would be nice to get some hand-on experience of a few before I made my final decision. We have a fairly large PMT here in Nottingham so the next time I was in town I went in. This is the first time I'd been there since COVID, and the store was looking very sorry with loads a spaces on the walls that used to be full of guitars. The keyboard/high-tech area was cordoned off with a note informing me to ask if I wanted to try anything. I was told that someone would be along shortly to help me. I passed the time waiting by looking at the much reduced selection of guitars and basses and after about 10 minutes and when no help was forth-coming I left. 

 

I bought my controller on-line from Amazon.

 

This pretty much sums it up I think!

[sammybee]

1 hour ago, BassAdder60 said:

With that kind of money I would be booking a visit to Peach Music and it would be worth the drive !

A quality shop with great stock and good staff. I’ve been into and used most of the big named stores and none come close to Peach, maybe Anderson’s is second best for an actual store but that’s too far away 

 

PMT are probably the worse and I wouldn’t think of going to them unless I was desperate for some strings !

The stock and QC is woeful in my experience and I’ve used them on and off over the last ten years 

 

I wouldn't drop that much on bass from PMT ha ha.. no I was keyboard/piano shopping this weekend

 

When I finally got to speak to someone, they tried to flog me an ex-demo model for the same price as Andertons are selling boxed new ones!

[Barking Spiders]

Never cared for PMT or any of the other chains. Much prefer indies even if they do have smaller selections. Always have had better service and rapport with the owners and staff

[asingardenof]

I was in PMT Leeds this afternoon, and it all seemed fairly well set up, but obviously it was pretty empty being a Tuesday afternoon. The staff were all friendly and helpful as they have been on other occasions I've been in.

[woodyratm]

On 13/02/2024 at 19:12, Norris said:

Sorry, I can't remember that long ago. The only local shop still surviving sells entry-level gear that is of no interest to me. It's a sad state of affairs, but I think that ship sailed a long time ago

I agree. We have 2 music shops up here and both are very low level on the bass side. Couple low level fenders usually. 
 

 

[tauzero]

As it would cost me a few quid to go to the Birmingham PMT, since it moved to inside the clean air zone, I have no idea what it's like now.

[DTB]

I’m lucky to have Peach as my local guitar shop. I have been a customer since I was a teenager in the 80s when they were a small but excellent shop selling music gear and toys including metal detectors. 
Virtually any music shop will look second best when compared to Peach. 
My last visit to PMT was in 2020 at Southend to pick up a Clapton strat. Staff were excellent and rather surprised at my brief visit and wanted me to stay and try out the guitar before leaving but for me it was just a click and correct. The store even back then I remember was a little sorry for itself, but the staff were excellent. I remember saying to my wife who was with me that the store looked like it might be on the way to closing. I don’t know if it did??? 🤷‍♀️

In the old days though in wasn’t unusual for a guitar shop to be dusty, overcrowded with old stock, have grumpy hungover/stoned staff etc etc. it was the norm, and fools/newbies were not tolerated. Different times though. 

[SteveXFR]

The Bristol shop used to be pretty decent but last time I went in to try basses, I waited ages for one to be taken off the wall then got given a tiny practice amp a few feet from a guitarist trying out a big valve amp so couldn't hear what the bass sounded like. I asked to try it where I can hear it and was told to come back another time. I bought one elsewhere. 

It's even worse since they moved to a shop where there's no parking. 

[Woodinblack]

Bristol used to be good, it had its own bass section, its own keyboard section. It was also convenient to get to so that when I was downtown shopping with my wife, I could nip there while she was in another shop, and I got a chance to actually look at stuff. But then they closed the bass section so the basses moved to a wall, then they closed the shop and moved to somewhere where there was no reason for me to be, so I haven't been since then.

[BassAdder60]

1 hour ago, DTB said:

I’m lucky to have Peach as my local guitar shop. I have been a customer since I was a teenager in the 80s when they were a small but excellent shop selling music gear and toys including metal detectors. 
Virtually any music shop will look second best when compared to Peach. 
My last visit to PMT was in 2020 at Southend to pick up a Clapton strat. Staff were excellent and rather surprised at my brief visit and wanted me to stay and try out the guitar before leaving but for me it was just a click and correct. The store even back then I remember was a little sorry for itself, but the staff were excellent. I remember saying to my wife who was with me that the store looked like it might be on the way to closing. I don’t know if it did??? 🤷‍♀️

In the old days though in wasn’t unusual for a guitar shop to be dusty, overcrowded with old stock, have grumpy hungover/stoned staff etc etc. it was the norm, and fools/newbies were not tolerated. Different times though. 

Another vote for Peach 

Awesome store and great staff 

[iconic]

You see in many shops nowadays, no matter what they sell, decent staff are just so tough to find. 

[SimonK]

I was in the Portsmouth PMT just before Christmas. The stock was dwindling and the only basses that caught my interest were a pair of sunburst American Standards - both J & P, albeit their mid priced Ibanez range was pretty good.

 

Then this morning someone told me the shop closed down at Christmas - and checking the website this seems it may well be the case! I wonder if the whole chain is going bust?

[AndyTravis]

44 minutes ago, SimonK said:

I was in the Portsmouth PMT just before Christmas. The stock was dwindling and the only basses that caught my interest were a pair of sunburst American Standards - both J & P, albeit their mid priced Ibanez range was pretty good.

 

Then this morning someone told me the shop closed down at Christmas - and checking the website this seems it may well be the case! I wonder if the whole chain is going bust?

They’ve been “going bust” for years - I worked for a chain until 2014, we nearly went bust a few times while I worked there.

 

We had a a turnover of about £4m in my shop for 7/8 years which started to drop off rapidly.

 

They took on some managing director to turn around the fortunes of the company - an “expert in retailing” not a musician who knew business…that was a HUGE error. Things proceeded downward.

 

They set up a side company to combat the online scalpers, the punters knew what the craic was and would (rightfully) get us to match our own prices off the discount site…absolutely mental.

 

They invested heavily in own brand budget stuff, some was excellent for the money, some was absolute garbage - the failure rate on the digital pianos for example was 40% - meaning after all the effort, they would’ve been better off investing that cash in bulk kawai/Casio/Yamaha deals where we would’ve had recourse with warranty support…instead, it all went to the skip.

 

After I left, the company went into the hands of an asset management company who sold the headquarters building and a warehouse they owned.

 

Big accounts were left unpaid, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Roland…

 

they then closed 4 out of 12 shops, bit by bit each shop closed, think they had 4 by 2019.

 

Then at the last bell, a local musician/shop owner bought what was left - the “Iceberg” had already hit and there was no way to turn it around. 
 

Online orders unfulfilled, stock was old, arriving damaged with no way to replace as accounts with companies were locked/closed/on hold.

 

The profit margins were shocking, Fender/Roland was 10-15%
 

Gibson was 35% if sold at “street price” but you had to spend/order £50k a month to get that mark up - they would take that £50k a month from the company even if we didn’t order - they would send whatever they had if we didn’t specify. And if we didn’t sell, we had a massive back stock of stuff we had to put in “sale” at 10-15% margin thus rendering the big spend pointless…the 120th anniversary models did not sell well at all (they put a banner at the 12th fret on all models which nobody seemed to want) we sold every piece at a loss…eventually.

 

I’m not surprised music retailers (big ones) are dying off.

 

I went to look at a job in PMT and I think the starting wage was £14.5k plus commission, so you’re never going to retain good staff.

 

I’d been on £15k plus commission ten years previously at the other shop, I’d finished on considerably more.

 

i think specialised retail will survive in pockets, but it’s a risk I’d not be willing to take - I think the target audience is dwindling as guitar-based music is not at the forefront.

 

A good while ago, I was offered the GBBL business - I’m in no position to become a business of any sort (big mortgage, young family)…the romance was definitely there, but realistically the prospect instantly scared me half to death.

 

“How do you make a small fortune in the MI retail industry?”

 

”start with a huge fortune”

 

Apologies for the essay…

 

 

 

 

[SimonK]

27 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

They’ve been “going bust” for years - I worked for a chain until 2014, we nearly went bust a few times while I worked there.

 

We had a a turnover of about £4m in my shop for 7/8 years which started to drop off rapidly.

 

They took on some managing director to turn around the fortunes of the company - an “expert in retailing” not a musician who knew business…that was a HUGE error. Things proceeded downward.

 

They set up a side company to combat the online scalpers, the punters knew what the craic was and would (rightfully) get us to match our own prices off the discount site…absolutely mental.

 

They invested heavily in own brand budget stuff, some was excellent for the money, some was absolute garbage - the failure rate on the digital pianos for example was 40% - meaning after all the effort, they would’ve been better off investing that cash in bulk kawai/Casio/Yamaha deals where we would’ve had recourse with warranty support…instead, it all went to the skip.

 

After I left, the company went into the hands of an asset management company who sold the headquarters building and a warehouse they owned.

 

Big accounts were left unpaid, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Roland…

 

they then closed 4 out of 12 shops, bit by bit each shop closed, think they had 4 by 2019.

 

Then at the last bell, a local musician/shop owner bought what was left - the “Iceberg” had already hit and there was no way to turn it around. 
 

Online orders unfulfilled, stock was old, arriving damaged with no way to replace as accounts with companies were locked/closed/on hold.

 

The profit margins were shocking, Fender/Roland was 10-15%
 

Gibson was 35% if sold at “street price” but you had to spend/order £50k a month to get that mark up - they would take that £50k a month from the company even if we didn’t order - they would send whatever they had if we didn’t specify. And if we didn’t sell, we had a massive back stock of stuff we had to put in “sale” at 10-15% margin thus rendering the big spend pointless…the 120th anniversary models did not sell well at all (they put a banner at the 12th fret on all models which nobody seemed to want) we sold every piece at a loss…eventually.

 

I’m not surprised music retailers (big ones) are dying off.

 

I went to look at a job in PMT and I think the starting wage was £14.5k plus commission, so you’re never going to retain good staff.

 

I’d been on £15k plus commission ten years previously at the other shop, I’d finished on considerably more.

 

i think specialised retail will survive in pockets, but it’s a risk I’d not be willing to take - I think the target audience is dwindling as guitar-based music is not at the forefront.

 

A good while ago, I was offered the GBBL business - I’m in no position to become a business of any sort (big mortgage, young family)…the romance was definitely there, but realistically the prospect instantly scared me half to death.

 

“How do you make a small fortune in the MI retail industry?”

 

”start with a huge fortune”

 

Apologies for the essay…

 

 

 

 

 

That's interesting to hear - I was never too impressed by their stock or prices, but used to drop by fairly frequently for strings, cables, stands and also to check out what second hand gear they had in as sometimes gems could turn up. The staff were actually quite friendly, but yes almost aways despairing about the management.

 

It does seem that as a music retailer you now have to go big online as Andertons have done, or maybe try to be more niche. I like the idea of getting a physical premise somewhere and then running a commission business model selling second hand gear sourced from local musicians - there's enough of us around wanting to get rid of stuff. Could probably also branch out into rentals and repairs...

Edited February 17 by SimonK