PMT - physical shops going downhill?

[DTB]

6 minutes ago, SimonK said:

 

That's interesting to hear - I was never too impressed by their stock or prices, but used to drop by fairly frequently for strings, cables, stands and also to check out what second hand gear they had in as sometimes gems could turn up. The staff were actually quite friendly, but yes almost aways despairing about the management.

 

It does seem that as a music retailer you now have to go big online as Andertons have done, or maybe try to be more niche. I like the idea of getting a physical premise somewhere and then running a commission business model selling second hand gear sourced from local musicians - there's enough of us around wanting to get rid of stuff. Could probably also branch out into rentals and repairs...

It would be an additional venture along side a safe income I think possibly maybe the only way to do it. However, I really think that you are spot on with that idea. I have shelves of stuff that are unused and absolutely nothing wrongs with that every so often I unload on to the local 2nd hand shop at a fraction of their true value just because I can’t stand dealing with the - “Do you wanna swap it for a speed  boat mate?’ brigade on ebay. 

[bass_dinger]

13 minutes ago, SimonK said:

go big online as Andertons have done, or maybe try to be more niche

That seems to be the model that Hobgoblin has adopted.  Online presence,  and shops selling niche products. Gypsy jazz guitars, Chinese violins, African thumb pianos, accordions, low whistles  - folk instruments that other shops wouldn't stock, and lots of spare parts. 

 

Nothing high-end, but if you are looking for a particularly obscure instrument, then they are your best bet.

 

 https://hobgoblin.com/

 

 

[jimmyb625]

1 hour ago, AndyTravis said:

They’ve been “going bust” for years - I worked for a chain until 2014, we nearly went bust a few times while I worked there.

 

We had a a turnover of about £4m in my shop for 7/8 years which started to drop off rapidly.

 

They took on some managing director to turn around the fortunes of the company - an “expert in retailing” not a musician who knew business…that was a HUGE error. Things proceeded downward.

 

They set up a side company to combat the online scalpers, the punters knew what the craic was and would (rightfully) get us to match our own prices off the discount site…absolutely mental.

 

They invested heavily in own brand budget stuff, some was excellent for the money, some was absolute garbage - the failure rate on the digital pianos for example was 40% - meaning after all the effort, they would’ve been better off investing that cash in bulk kawai/Casio/Yamaha deals where we would’ve had recourse with warranty support…instead, it all went to the skip.

 

After I left, the company went into the hands of an asset management company who sold the headquarters building and a warehouse they owned.

 

Big accounts were left unpaid, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Roland…

 

they then closed 4 out of 12 shops, bit by bit each shop closed, think they had 4 by 2019.

 

Then at the last bell, a local musician/shop owner bought what was left - the “Iceberg” had already hit and there was no way to turn it around. 
 

Online orders unfulfilled, stock was old, arriving damaged with no way to replace as accounts with companies were locked/closed/on hold.

 

The profit margins were shocking, Fender/Roland was 10-15%
 

Gibson was 35% if sold at “street price” but you had to spend/order £50k a month to get that mark up - they would take that £50k a month from the company even if we didn’t order - they would send whatever they had if we didn’t specify. And if we didn’t sell, we had a massive back stock of stuff we had to put in “sale” at 10-15% margin thus rendering the big spend pointless…the 120th anniversary models did not sell well at all (they put a banner at the 12th fret on all models which nobody seemed to want) we sold every piece at a loss…eventually.

 

I’m not surprised music retailers (big ones) are dying off.

 

I went to look at a job in PMT and I think the starting wage was £14.5k plus commission, so you’re never going to retain good staff.

 

I’d been on £15k plus commission ten years previously at the other shop, I’d finished on considerably more.

 

i think specialised retail will survive in pockets, but it’s a risk I’d not be willing to take - I think the target audience is dwindling as guitar-based music is not at the forefront.

 

A good while ago, I was offered the GBBL business - I’m in no position to become a business of any sort (big mortgage, young family)…the romance was definitely there, but realistically the prospect instantly scared me half to death.

 

“How do you make a small fortune in the MI retail industry?”

 

”start with a huge fortune”

 

Apologies for the essay…

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the way they operated was almost an exact lesson in things not to do.

 

I think they expanded too far and certainly took on premises which weren't the best choices. The Manchester store looked great, but I'd imagine the rent was ridiculous. When they sold the Warrington store (which I think they owned outright) you knew they were finished.

 

I used to go into the Altrincham store every week, after the kids had piano lessons and we bought their first keyboard and then digital piano from there, plus a clavinova for the theatre. I think I also bought child no. 2's 3/4 scale Yamaha classical guitar from there as well, as well as a Farida acoustic. It was a real shame when it eventually closed.

 

Didn't the MD get given an O.B.E or something similar? I remember seeing an interview with him at some point that made him out to be a retail expert, in which he stated he had no interest at all in instruments. A great choice...

 

 

[AndyTravis]

2 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

Yeah, the way they operated was almost an exact lesson in things not to do.

 

I think they expanded too far and certainly took on premises which weren't the best choices. The Manchester store looked great, but I'd imagine the rent was ridiculous. When they sold the Warrington store (which I think they owned outright) you knew they were finished.

 

I used to go into the Altrincham store every week, after the kids had piano lessons and we bought their first keyboard and then digital piano from there, plus a clavinova for the theatre. I think I also bought child no. 2's 3/4 scale Yamaha classical guitar from there as well, as well as a Farida acoustic. It was a real shame when it eventually closed.

 

Didn't the MD get given an O.B.E or something similar? I remember seeing an interview with him at some point that made him out to be a retail expert, in which he stated he had no interest at all in instruments. A great choice...

 

 

David was a lovely man, he’d ran the company successfully since the mid 70’s, he took more of a back seat as he was married to the queens cousin/niece (someone royal) and took a role as some sort of consort to the royal family. Yes…it was a bizarre thing.

 

He originally ran it as an organ/piano business…and as time progressed, guitars/drums/hi tech stuff.

 

They took on a guy who had no clue about music at all - and it started failing.

 

The online business should’ve been grown rather than trying to beat it with more shops.

 

Your online game has to be strong these days, they fumbled that in the mid 00’s and it went belly up from there on in.

 

I will always stand by David though - an imposing, old school guy - if he liked you, you were golden.

 

My bosses in 2014 couldn’t be bothered passing a reference on.

 

I messaged him to ask him to prod them into sending it and within an hour, a glowing reference full of detail from him. He messaged soon after that saying “best wishes, thanks for everything you’ve done for my company - sorry for the short reference, I’m on holiday at the moment, if they need anything else - have them call me next week”.

 

I later heard how he was very upset when selling 40 years worth of hard work.

 

He was in his 70’s then…

 

 

[AndyTravis]

@jimmyb625 I recall towards the end, the Manchester shop cost £1200 or so a day to run, it was a very, very expensive building to be in…

 

I did 11 years there. We were never “cool” like PMT were perceived to be, or Johnny Roadhouse…it was a weird company. I never fully understood much of the decision making process - I never felt any iteration of the senior management had a full grasp on what to do next.

 

Some of us had a clue - I ran the social media for a bit, at the birth of facebook/twitter/instagram as a sales platform…they took it off me and killed it in months…

 

Such is life. 
 

Met loads of good folk who I still speak to…

 

The old Manchester team met at the shop last year when it reopened as a bijou pizza restaurant 😆

 

 

[DTB]

I don’t understand how anyone can have no interest in musical instruments. The idea seems absolutely absurd to me. But then I can’t stand football so each to their own I guess. 

[jimmyb625]

33 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

David was a lovely man, he’d ran the company successfully since the mid 70’s, he took more of a back seat as he was married to the queens cousin/niece (someone royal) and took a role as some sort of consort to the royal family. Yes…it was a bizarre thing.

 

He originally ran it as an organ/piano business…and as time progressed, guitars/drums/hi tech stuff.

 

They took on a guy who had no clue about music at all - and it started failing.

 

The online business should’ve been grown rather than trying to beat it with more shops.

 

Your online game has to be strong these days, they fumbled that in the mid 00’s and it went belly up from there on in.

 

I will always stand by David though - an imposing, old school guy - if he liked you, you were golden.

 

My bosses in 2014 couldn’t be bothered passing a reference on.

 

I messaged him to ask him to prod them into sending it and within an hour, a glowing reference full of detail from him. He messaged soon after that saying “best wishes, thanks for everything you’ve done for my company - sorry for the short reference, I’m on holiday at the moment, if they need anything else - have them call me next week”.

 

I later heard how he was very upset when selling 40 years worth of hard work.

 

He was in his 70’s then…

 

 

Excellent, that's changed my perception, thank you. 

 

Yes, he was awarded the title Lord Lieutenant of Cheshire I think, whatever that is. 

[AndyTravis]

16 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

Excellent, that's changed my perception, thank you. 

 

Yes, he was awarded the title Lord Lieutenant of Cheshire I think, whatever that is. 

Every time the queen came to Cheshire, he would tell her who’s hand she was shaking etc…

 

Honestly though, he made a huge impression on my life - I joined his company as a 19 year old boy and left him as a 30 year old married father of two with a mortgage and a wealth of knowledge and experience.

 

i owe him a beer. Or a Sherry or something.

[asingardenof]

11 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

They’ve been “going bust” for years - I worked for a chain until 2014, we nearly went bust a few times while I worked there.

 

We had a a turnover of about £4m in my shop for 7/8 years which started to drop off rapidly.

 

They took on some managing director to turn around the fortunes of the company - an “expert in retailing” not a musician who knew business…that was a HUGE error. Things proceeded downward.

 

They set up a side company to combat the online scalpers, the punters knew what the craic was and would (rightfully) get us to match our own prices off the discount site…absolutely mental.

 

They invested heavily in own brand budget stuff, some was excellent for the money, some was absolute garbage - the failure rate on the digital pianos for example was 40% - meaning after all the effort, they would’ve been better off investing that cash in bulk kawai/Casio/Yamaha deals where we would’ve had recourse with warranty support…instead, it all went to the skip.

 

After I left, the company went into the hands of an asset management company who sold the headquarters building and a warehouse they owned.

 

Big accounts were left unpaid, Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Roland…

 

they then closed 4 out of 12 shops, bit by bit each shop closed, think they had 4 by 2019.

 

Then at the last bell, a local musician/shop owner bought what was left - the “Iceberg” had already hit and there was no way to turn it around. 
 

Online orders unfulfilled, stock was old, arriving damaged with no way to replace as accounts with companies were locked/closed/on hold.

 

The profit margins were shocking, Fender/Roland was 10-15%
 

Gibson was 35% if sold at “street price” but you had to spend/order £50k a month to get that mark up - they would take that £50k a month from the company even if we didn’t order - they would send whatever they had if we didn’t specify. And if we didn’t sell, we had a massive back stock of stuff we had to put in “sale” at 10-15% margin thus rendering the big spend pointless…the 120th anniversary models did not sell well at all (they put a banner at the 12th fret on all models which nobody seemed to want) we sold every piece at a loss…eventually.

 

I’m not surprised music retailers (big ones) are dying off.

 

I went to look at a job in PMT and I think the starting wage was £14.5k plus commission, so you’re never going to retain good staff.

 

I’d been on £15k plus commission ten years previously at the other shop, I’d finished on considerably more.

 

i think specialised retail will survive in pockets, but it’s a risk I’d not be willing to take - I think the target audience is dwindling as guitar-based music is not at the forefront.

 

A good while ago, I was offered the GBBL business - I’m in no position to become a business of any sort (big mortgage, young family)…the romance was definitely there, but realistically the prospect instantly scared me half to death.

 

“How do you make a small fortune in the MI retail industry?”

 

”start with a huge fortune”

 

Apologies for the essay…

 

 

 

 

I remember spending some time in the Leeds store when I moved back up north at the end of 2019, and remember being extremely underwhelmed and disappointed by the meagre selection of basses on offer in there.

 

They did though let me noodle away on a brace of Fender Jazzes for about an hour while I was waiting for a house viewing appointment on a quiet weekday in November, and were probably quite disappointed when I didn't buy one, although I did say I was planning to save for the Performer. Obviously what happened four months later put paid to that idea...

[Jonesy]

A mate walked past this and sent me a pic today...PMT London has now closed and it looks like it's not relocating. The website says to visit the Romford store.

 

Have to admit that it's not too surprising. The store never looked that great and I always thought it was in a bit of a no mans land.

 

Seems like they're condensing their store locations, hope they're come out the other side of whatever difficulties they're having.

[sbrag]

On 17/02/2024 at 09:56, SteveXFR said:

The Bristol shop used to be pretty decent but last time I went in to try basses, I waited ages for one to be taken off the wall then got given a tiny practice amp a few feet from a guitarist trying out a big valve amp so couldn't hear what the bass sounded like. I asked to try it where I can hear it and was told to come back another time. I bought one elsewhere. 

It's even worse since they moved to a shop where there's no parking. 

Completely agree. I used to go in a lot when I was in  the city centre. Now they are opposite Temple Meads I never go. Haven't been in since buying my daughter a guitar there Bout 18 months ago.

[behr66]

I was in PMT Manchester today and the vibe was awful. Lots of empty spaces where guitars used to hang and totally disinterested staff. Used to be a great shop, looks like it's closing now to me. SAD 

[12stringbassist]

The bass section at PMT in Salford is rather sad these days.

[Minininjarob]

I like the Leeds store, they have a decent amount of basses in, they have reorganised it and made more space for bass. Always really helpful and nice to deal with. 

[martin8708]

On 17/02/2024 at 14:38, DTB said:

I don’t understand how anyone can have no interest in musical instruments. The idea seems absolutely absurd to me. But then I can’t stand football so each to their own I guess. 

It’s quite common to bring in “high flyers “ from totally different industries in the belief they will invigorate sales / performance.

In my 40 years experience, it never works , they just come up with ridiculous sales ideas to justify their obscene salaries .

[tauzero]

Now we've got a car that won't get charged for entering the CAZ, I may go and revisit PMT Birmingham.

[Minininjarob]

11 hours ago, martin8708 said:

It’s quite common to bring in “high flyers “ from totally different industries in the belief they will invigorate sales / performance.

In my 40 years experience, it never works , they just come up with ridiculous sales ideas to justify their obscene salaries .

 

I worked in retail a long time and you are right the worst people to have in charge are people who don’t understand retail, and even worse don’t understand the intricacies of specialist retail. Music shops to me are very like the cycle shops I used to spend a lot of money in. You need people who know their stuff, don’t force their own opinions on people and listen to people’s needs. If you get that than it doesn’t matter about having a huge variety of stock, as you’ll get people coming back again and again. I haven’t bought a bass from PMT but I’ve bought all sorts of accessories very happily and will continue to go there to support them as they are the nearest shop to me - Richtone is a little bit further in the opposite direction but harder to get to but they are excellent too. 
I always make the excuse to buy something when I get advice from them too and I would never try something out knowing I would buy it online cheaper. 

[itu]

On 13/02/2024 at 19:08, BigRedX said:

I'd done my research on-line, but thought it would be nice to get some hand-on experience of a few before I made my final decision.

This is the way I would love to acquire instruments and accessories. And while talking about accessories it is OK, I think. But.

 

I have read so many times that someone orders two/three instruments from the T-shop.de and sends back the ones that are not suitable in a way or another.

 

Years back I wanted to try Laklands, because I heard good comments about them. A local shop happened to have 8 or 9 instruments. I went there and tried every one. Hated all except one Japanese Skyline. But even that wasn't for me.

 

Where are the places to do anything similar? On line? How to compare instruments? Listening to the lousy slap fiascos where some SM activist is trying to convince us that this 3500th Fender copy is the thing I cannot live without? Sound quality: youtube, playing abilities: guitar background, credibility: none.

 

It seems that there are only few serious shops available, and that usually requires travelling. Or finding a decent second hand bass from a fellow musician.

[la bam]

To me, Pmt in manchester doesn't really know what it is... It gives off that vibe. 

 

Basses? Errmm not really, here's a few to look at, but it's in a corner and lots of empty racks, plus an obvious exclusion of musicman? Bass Amps? There's a couple against the wall hidden over there. PA? A few boxes lined up for seemingly no reason. No real obvious demo. Keyboards good to be fair, plenty on display and easy to test. Staff? A bit haphazard and spread thinly. Accessories - a hard find, usually to the point of giving up. But the whole place just doesn't work as an experience like it used to. 

[Beedster]

It’s tough in digital retail let alone in four walls. And I doubt Basschat does the UK bass retail scene too many favours 🤔

[BigRedX]

5 hours ago, Beedster said:

It’s tough in digital retail let alone in four walls. And I doubt Basschat does the UK bass retail scene too many favours 🤔

 

Your typical Basschat poster has largely outgrown the typical bricks and mortar music store.

[OliverBlackman]

5 hours ago, Beedster said:

It’s tough in digital retail let alone in four walls. And I doubt Basschat does the UK bass retail scene too many favours 🤔

My last bass purchase from a physical shop was 2006! I joined bass chat in 2010 but before that I was buying off eBay instead of shops anyway.

[tauzero]

8 hours ago, Beedster said:

It’s tough in digital retail let alone in four walls. And I doubt Basschat does the UK bass retail scene too many favours 🤔

 

There's not much UK bass retail scene though. Basses tend to play second, er, fiddle to guitars in general music shops, but the specialist bass shops get mentioned quite a bit on Basschat, generally in positive terms, so plenty of free advertising.

[paul_5]

I think we’re fast approaching the point at which there won’t be any more new basses on Blighty’s shores ever again, we’ve just got to perpetuate the ‘Merry-go-round’ that is the BC approach to bass ownership!

[rwillett]

So does this mean I get to pass on my Westfield bass (circa 2012) with three strings but I get back a 58 Precision?

 

Just wondering.... Sounds good to me

 

Rob