Sub woofer for studio monitors

[DTB]

I am considering adding the 7040 sub to my 8010 Genelec monitors but thought I would ask opinions first. 
I have never had a subwoofer before in a studio format, and although they improved a PA System a lot a few years ago, I can’t help thinking that it will be overkill for my tiny studio/music room. 
The only real reason is that I don’t think the little 8010s reproduce the kick drum very well, as it is often hard to pick out of a mix, and now that I am firmly back in the bass is best bunch, rather than guitar, I really need to be able to hear it, but also, I don’t want to make my tinnitus any worse. 
Another consideration is the outlay, as the 7040 is around £700 and I keep saying that I am not spending any more etc etc. 

I wouldn’t buy a cheap substitute as I firmly believe in buy cheap buy twice. 
Any opinions and advice gratefully received. Thank you. 

[Bolo]

Regarding tinnitus: keep the volume sensible and take regular breaks. Fatigue is the enemy here.

 

Why would you pick the genelec sub over something tried and tested like a second hand REL? Could be about half the outlay. 

 

Small speakers like that do need a sub if you want to get the low end right.

[SumOne]

I don't know about the 8010, but I use KRK Rokit 8 which are probably equivalent and they seem plenty of sub for the Bass heavy stuff I DJ and produce at home (dub, Reggae, Drum n Bass, dubstep) and I know a few others in my situation that use the same. 

 

If the 8010s aren't producing the kick well then are people going to need to listen with a sub to hear it well? Listeners will often be using crappy speakers, so if anything, I'd try to mix stuff and get it sounding good through a variety of bad speakers. 

[itu]

After installation, do measure the set in the listening place, and do required corrections. You can get some results with a phone and some RTA app. Accurate systems cost quite a lot, but even a phone can find worst issues.

[fretmeister]

I’d upgrade the monitors instead.

[DTB]

I went with those monitors because they’re suitable for small rooms. The ones I had before were larger and were too much, it’s a bad acoustic space, although since I got those it has doubled in size thanks to an extension. 

[DTB]

Yes Itu, you helped me before and I downloaded an app after your help which analyses the frequencies very well. 

[Bolo]

The datasheet for the 8010 shows a roll off below ~130Hz with a minor peak at 80Hz, below which it drops off swiftly:

 

 

If you want to be able to judge the low end accurately I'd suggest a subwoofer with a crossover preferably around 120Hz but certainly above 76Hz.

 

The 8010a give no sub information whatsoever, so there's no telling if the track has a low frequency hum, whoomp or no sub at all. These monitors simply can't relay that sort of information.

So either very good headphones or a subwoofer seems critical for reliable mixes.

Edited February 14 by Bolo

[DTB]

1 hour ago, Bolo said:

The datasheet for the 8010 shows a roll off below ~130Hz with a minor peak at 80Hz, below which it drops off swiftly:

 

 

If you want to be able to judge the low end accurately I'd suggest a subwoofer with a crossover preferably around 120Hz but certainly above 76Hz.

 

The 8010a give no sub information whatsoever, so there's no telling if the track has a low frequency hum, whoomp or no sub at all. These monitors simply can't relay that sort of information.

So either very good headphones or a subwoofer seems critical for reliable mixes.

Thanks. Great reply. Very constructive. I have more or less convinced myself that I should have the sub. 

[SH73]

I think it's important to understand if there is a loss of hearing and/or loss of certain frequencies the final mix won't be perfect. I don't think I am ever happy with my mixes as I know what sounds almost good to me in reality may be a muddy mix. I've recently watched an engineer on you tube explaining a subwoofer. When you hear the bass coming out from the subwoofer, you turn the bass frequency down until you can barely hear it from the subwoofer. My music room is narrower than longer. I made corner bass traps in a shape of a toblerone from rockwool and bass trap panels for front and back wall, and side walls. There is a thread about it in BC. I don't think there is a correct answer as everyone hears differently, I often use a reference song which seems to help a lot.

[DTB]

My little studio is acoustically treated in a big way. Mix of foam and home made corner traps and 10 cm thick foam on walls and ceiling, and still there is a very narrow sweet spot to sit in. It’s more for me to play live than mix tracks although i have done some recording and needed to mix it all. 
I’d just be happy to hear the kick drum a little better when I am playing. 
I use Lalal.ai to remove the bass from the tracks i want to play along to. 
I don’t gig anymore due to ill health. 

[Dan Dare]

The 7040 is the obvious choice to go with your 8010s. It's been designed to work with them. You're not looking for high volumes, but to extend low frequency response and in a small room, so it should serve very well. Sound on Sound gave it a very positive review and I find their reviews reliable.

 

I don't subscribe to the "mix it so it sounds good on terrible speakers" (which your 8010s aren't) philosophy referred to above. Yes, such a mix might sound reasonable on similarly terrible speakers, but on anything decent, it won't.

Edited February 15 by Dan Dare

[DTB]

16 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

The 7040 is the obvious choice to go with your 8010s. It's been designed to work with them. You're not looking for high volumes, but to extend low frequency response and in a small room, so it should serve very well. Sound on Sound gave it a very positive review and I find their reviews reliable.

 

I don't subscribe to the "mix it so it sounds good on terrible speakers" (which your 8010s aren't) philosophy referred to above. Yes, such a mix might sound reasonable on similarly terrible speakers, but on anything decent, it won't.

Thanks, that’s excellent advice, especially as I ordered the 7040 this morning and it should be with me tomorrow morning.  
The point you made about wanting excellent frequency response and not high volume is exactly what I am after. 
I simply want the kick drum to be in the mix as intended, and good as the little Genelecs are, it just isn’t there at the moment. 
Nice to know it got a good review. 
Will post my findings once it’s all up and running. 

[DTB]

Well I have never had a sub woofer system before. I have always just had the best 2 channel system I could afford at the time. This is by far the best set up I have ever had. Set up was easy. Got an 85 hz signal on utube to set the phase with the 8010s which I suspected as it is all the same brand would be zero which it is. Then simply turned down the sensitivity to balance with the main monitors. The suggested bass roll off is -2 db which I have also set and I have no reason to doubt their recommendation as like I say it sounds awesome. 
kick drum is nice and clear which was my main aim. 
If anything I could turn the sub up slightly which I may do depending on my tinnitus, but early observation would tend to suggest the overall volume is now lower, at the point where I can hear the detail in the music as I like. 
sweet spot for listening is still just as narrow as before. 
Over all very pleased. 
Would buy this setup again in a heart beat if I needed a second system somewhere. 

[three]

Excellent news - it’ll take a bit of time to adjust I’d imagine but it sounds like a good decision. I use a 7050 mainly for infill - my near fields roll-off around 60Hz. The only frustration for me with the Genelec was the link-through 85Hz cross-over that can’t be defeated - otherwise a classy sub and I’m sure the 7040 is the same. I just run full signal to the near fields and run the subs from  around 75 down. I hope it works out for you

[DTB]

Right it’s been a few days now and i need some more advice please. 
as you guys know I am unable to gig due to ill health and I only play to backing tracks at home now. (I take the bass out of original tracks so I am playing along with the original artist which is good). 
I have done this with guitar as well and I have always preferred the guitar through a proper valve amp at gig volume. My music bunker is pretty much sound proofed. 
The sub is doing what I want by allowing me to hear the kick drum, and I would like to put the bass through a combo with a very small amount of grit, rather than the sub and monitors. I’m looking at the small Ampeg RB 108. 

Am I daft? Should I just stick with the Digbeth pedal and going to mixer and monitors etc. 

would like to know your opinions pls. 

[Bolo]

Spend whatever money that won't hurt your household on that which brings you joy.

[DTB]

Last night I couldn’t sleep due to my stupid arthritic spine pain, so i was in the bunker from 3am practicing bass. I normally don’t bother with headphones coz it pretty much sound proof but last night for the first time since I last recorded (a long time) I played through headphones, and it sounded amazing. Beginning to think I wasted my money on monitors and sub now and should have just bought a pro pair of ‘phones. The sound stage was brilliant and the bass tone through my valve preamp was exactly the growl I love from the bridge pup and buttery smooth from the neck. Didn’t wanna put the bass down and go back to bed once the pills had kicked in. 

[Dan Dare]

Your monitors will still be valuable for mixing, which doesn't translate so well to cans (imho, of course). 

[Dad3353]

34 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Your monitors will still be valuable for mixing, which doesn't translate so well to cans (imho, of course). 

 

I always mix with headphones, then check at the end with my monitors. Just sayin'. 

[DTB]

I have ordered a PJB C2 cab to pair with my little valve amp. Will try that as I always prefer the backing track and guitar or bass, whatever I am playing to not go through the same system. If the C2 doesn’t give me the headphone type sound I will return it and stick with headphones. 
Anyone here had experience of that cab please?

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, DTB said:

I have ordered a PJB C2 cab to pair with my little valve amp. Will try that as I always prefer the backing track and guitar or bass, whatever I am playing to not go through the same system. If the C2 doesn’t give me the headphone type sound I will return it and stick with headphones. 
Anyone here had experience of that cab please?

 

I run C4s and 4Bs, which I like very much. I find them clean, but not sterile. I can't say whether you will like them. I don't think any cab will give you a true headphone sound. The drivers aren't an inch from your ears for a start and cans aren't affected by room acoustics.

 

Edited to add. How little is your valve amp? PJB cabs are quite inefficient and take some driving. The C4 is rated at 400w, which I think is a bit of an exaggeration, but it will certainly handle 300.

Edited March 9 by Dan Dare

[DTB]

9 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

 

 

Edited to add. How little is your valve amp? PJB cabs are quite inefficient and take some driving. The C4 is rated at 400w, which I think is a bit of an exaggeration, but it will certainly handle 300.

i have a couple of options with this. My fav amp is only 0.5 watt, it is designed for guitar to run at around 80-90 db for home use and recording so the valves are really working hard. I run it through a Marshall 1974 X cab when I am playing guitar and I have yet to find a better sounding amp for guitar, instant SRV /Hendrix, but it also has a preamp out which to run a bass cab I simply reamp with a 50 watt solid state power amp, which is way too much for home use normally. 
Or I have another old Bassman head which sounds okay and is a lot more powerful, so couple of options, I let you know what works, if anything. It’s just a stab in the dark really, I can always return it, I have 14 days I think for their money back guarantee thing. 

[Dan Dare]

On 09/03/2024 at 00:59, Dad3353 said:

I always mix with headphones, then check at the end with my monitors. Just sayin'. 

 

To each his/her own. Cans are useful if one has to worry about neighbours or domestic harmony. Partners and family quickly tire of hearing the same 4 bars repeated ad nauseam whilst you work on that tricky edit.

[Dan Dare]

17 hours ago, DTB said:

Or I have another old Bassman head which sounds okay and is a lot more powerful, so couple of options, I let you know what works, if anything. It’s just a stab in the dark really, I can always return it, I have 14 days I think for their money back guarantee thing. 

 

Is it out of the question to visit a decent shop or two and try stuff? Buying gear at random is a very hit or miss way to proceed and you're relying on making a lucky choice.

Edited March 10 by Dan Dare