solo4652 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 So far, the band PA is for vocals (lead and backing), and keys. The desk was upgraded 6 months ago and is owned by the drummer. Drummer plays acoustic kit, myself and guitarist use our own backline. Rear-facing monitor sits out front. Guitarist (who also does BV's) and drummer have now decided they'd like to use IEM's in order to protect their hearing, and to prevent their tinnutis getting worse. This will need a new desk with more inputs, apparently (I'm clueless about IEM systems), and drummer and guitarist have suggested we all contribute to the cost of a new desk and other associated equipment. I don't feel I need or want to use IEM's. Don't know about lead vocalist or keys player. Questions: Is there any way the existing desk could be adapted? Who then owns the desk and equipment if somebody leaves, or the band folds? Will IEM's help to reduce tinnutis? Could the drummer simply use musician-grade ear plugs? Won't IEM's introduce yet more leads and complexity to what is alreadyy a ton of on-stage eqipment for a 5-piece band? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Drummer could mic his drums up into a separate mixer and run the output from it into the main mixer, so he buys the drum mixer and drum mics. They might want different mixes for IEMs - there might just be one monitor output on the current desk or there might be a couple of Aux ouputs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingPrawn Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 For my penny's worth, I'd recommend going digital. You can get some incredible rack-mounted options with a shed load of inputs and Aux outs. behringer et al do some great mixers. As @tauzero said ask the drummer to purchase his own mixer reducing the need for several inputs on a desk or get one of the fab rack-mounted mixers. Just work out how many inputs you need as a band. In-ears is the way forward. As a curve ball drop your backlines and invest in something like a Helix and go straight into the mixer. A couple of RCF 745 and there won't be many venues you can't play at. As for who owns what. Whatever you buy will drop by 20%n as soon as you walk out the door. So i wouldn't think about the investment to much. If it provides your band with the sound and ease of setup jump on it and enjoy 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_lefty Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Tricky one, I guess it depends how you sorted the cost of things like the monitors already? . If someone in my band wants a new guitar/ pedal/ IEMs or whatever they buy it themselves. Lighting, the PA, the bag of hardware, insurance costs, etc. are paid for out of the band fund which is 50% of our gig takings. I know if I leave the band I leave that kit behind, same with other members, and I'm fine with that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 band bought gear always creates a problem somewhere down the line But going IEM has changed my world. I simply use the headphone socket on most gigs and can hear what I need I am thinking to buy a new Allen and Heath CQ20 desk though. Read the IEM thread on this site and you'll find lots of useful info 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 (edited) I'm struggling to fully understand how micing up drums and then feeding them into a desk is going to help with tinnutis. When I suggested musician-grade in-ear protectors, drummer said; "I also already use expensive in ear filtered ear protection and they’re okay but they only muffle the sound and the whole point of monitoring is to improve clarity and also the mix that you’re receiving. The idea is to have a quieter more balanced audio." But he's still going to be pounding away on his acoustic drum kit and making a lot of noise isn't he? That's not going to reduce the overall on-stage sound levels, is it? But, according to him, it isn't about reducing overall sound levels - it's about "improving clarity and,,,,,,,to have a quieter more balanced audio". I'm confused. I did start to read the IEM thread but quickly started to glaze over. Also - keys player has now decided she would like to have IEM as well as guitarist and drummer. Edited February 16 by solo4652 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 17 minutes ago, solo4652 said: I'm struggling to fully understand how micing up drums and then feeding them into a desk is going to help with tinnutis. When I suggested musician-grade in-ear protectors, drummer said; "I also already use expensive in ear filtered ear protection and they’re okay but they only muffle the sound and the whole point of monitoring is to improve clarity and also the mix that you’re receiving. The idea is to have a quieter more balanced audio." But he's still going to be pounding away on his acoustic drum kit and making a lot of noise isn't he? That's not going to reduce the overall on-stage sound levels, is it? But, according to him, it isn't about reducing overall sound levels - it's about "improving clarity and,,,,,,,to have a quieter more balanced audio". I'm confused. I did start to read the IEM thread but quickly started to glaze over. Also - keys player has now decided she would like to have IEM as well as guitarist and drummer. I assume the drummer just wants to hear a well balanced but lower volume version of what he hears while playing acoustically, ear protectors only do part of this. It's a good idea to my mind, we used to play with a loud drummer who used ear defenders which meant he tended to play even louder, meaning we had to either use use in-ears or risk damaging our hearing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 14 minutes ago, Beedster said: we used to play with a loud drummer who used ear defenders which meant he tended to play even louder, Oh Lord. That hadn't occured to me as a possibility at all! I used to play alongside a heavy-hitting double-kick drummer. Eventually he bought an electronic kit with a most marvellous thing - a volume control. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 24 minutes ago, solo4652 said: Oh Lord. That hadn't occured to me as a possibility at all! I used to play alongside a heavy-hitting double-kick drummer. Eventually he bought an electronic kit with a most marvellous thing - a volume control. I think that's what your drummer, in your present band, needs to do. He'll get a clearer sound in his IEMs than micing up an acoustic kit will give him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 @solo4652 some well fitted in ear monitors will also provide passive noise isolation, which means that the audio volume in your monitors doesn't need to be that loud in order to hear what you and the rest of the band are playing. I was in a band in uni and we went to in ears as the guitarist was playing to a click all of the time to loop stuff live. I wasn't using ear protection at the time. I went from some probable hearing damage in a normal band practice to feeling like I've been listening to some music. No ringing at all after a 4 hour practice. The volume difference was astounding and the clarity was totally worth it. I could even hear myself so well, some engineers told me to turn my amp up on stage for more stage volume. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Drummer sells his mixer and buys a new one. World peace is restored. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_lefty Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 50 minutes ago, solo4652 said: Oh Lord. That hadn't occured to me as a possibility at all! I used to play alongside a heavy-hitting double-kick drummer. Eventually he bought an electronic kit with a most marvellous thing - a volume control. My drummer has done the same, invested in an awesome Roland kit that looks acoustic but is fully electric. He has also gone to in-ears, one guitarist is in-ears and the singer is going for it too... Just leaves me. I really don't want to spend the oodles of money required for the set up so I get round this by saying "what if the PA cuts out? We need someone who can hear FOH!" and I can have a little monitor all of my own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 (edited) The nature pf The Problem seems to be changing. It started off with the drummer and the guitarist being concened about tinnutis, and sugegsting that IEM's would help protect their hearing. Latest message from drummer reads: "Our current desk only has 4 mic inputs and 1 monitor output so we’re out of ports before we even start. It’s all about the mix that individuals want to hear. I think our monitoring is a bit poor atm as [keys player] struggles to hear herself and also [lead vocalist]. And I struggle to hear both of them because of where I’m sat. Just trying to avoid more wedges and more volume as it rarely improves sound." So now the discussion is about poor stage monitoring. Currently there is just one monitor - it sits out front on the floor at the singer's feet. Is there a way that the output from the desk could be split so that individuals could have their own mini/personal monitors, perhaps? Some sort of snake?? Edited February 16 by solo4652 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 3 minutes ago, solo4652 said: The nature pf The Problem seems to be changing. It started off with the drummer and the guitarist being concened about tinnutis, and sugegsting that IEM's would help protect their hearing. Latest message from drummer reads: "Our current desk only has 4 mic inputs and 1 monitor output so we’re out of ports before we even start. It’s all about the mix that individuals want to hear. I think our monitoring is a bit poor atm as [keys player] struggles to hear herself and also [lead vocalist]. And I struggle to hear both of them because of where I’m sat. Just trying to avoid more wedges and more volume as it rarely improves sound." So now the discussion is about poor stage monitoring. Currently there is just one monitor - it sits out front on the floor at the singer's feet. Is there a way that the output from the desk could be split so that individuals could have their own mini/personal monitors, perhaps? Some sort of snake?? we had this problem, one monitor out, singer always complaining he couldn't hear himself, us complaining we couldn't hear our backing vocals, this solved the problem, without a new mixer https://www.andertons.co.uk/live-pa/live-headphones/behringer-ma400-headphone-amplifier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Just buy more monitors and connect them into the current monitor chain. Depending on whether its a passive or active monitor, and what connections it has will depend exactly how you do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 Could we feed the monitor output from the desk into one of these splitters https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/miscellaneous-peripherals/dap-pmm-401-4-channel-passive-mixer Anybody who wants their own personal monitor can buy one and plug it in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 You can't take a single mixed signal and then de-mix it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 9 minutes ago, solo4652 said: Could we feed the monitor output from the desk into one of these splitters https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/miscellaneous-peripherals/dap-pmm-401-4-channel-passive-mixer Anybody who wants their own personal monitor can buy one and plug it in. That doesn't get around not having enough inputs on the desk if the drummer wants to go with IEMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 4 minutes ago, MichaelDean said: That doesn't get around not having enough inputs on the desk if the drummer wants to go with IEMs. true, but like I said a few posts ago this does https://www.andertons.co.uk/live-pa/live-headphones/behringer-ma400-headphone-amplifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 1 minute ago, PaulWarning said: true, but like I said a few posts ago this does https://www.andertons.co.uk/live-pa/live-headphones/behringer-ma400-headphone-amplifier Not if he wants a kick, snare and overhead mics. I guess you could feed that from another mixer, but who wants to carry two mixers? Edited February 16 by MichaelDean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 7 minutes ago, MichaelDean said: Not if he wants a kick, snare and overhead mics. I guess you could feed that from another mixer, but who wants to carry two mixers? right see what you mean, I'm with @solo4652 on this, I can't see ear buds or phones blocking out the sound of an acoustic kit, as others have said an electric kit might be a better bet, or custom ear plugs, seems a load of trouble to go to just so the drummer can get the bit of extra clarity he'd lose, say, using ACS custom ear plugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boodang Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) The covers band I'm in decided to solve its monitoring problem by going with IEMs. To do this we use a Behringer XR18 as it has sufficient input/outputs.... oh, and we use an Ekit as it A. Keeps the stage volume down B. Makes the foh and monitoring mixes easier and C. Helps with our tinnitus. However, buying all the gear is not always easy when it comes to band politics and who coughs up. I guess it only really works when the whole band agree on what they need and how it gets paid for. Edited February 16 by Boodang 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 16 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: right see what you mean, I'm with @solo4652 on this, I can't see ear buds or phones blocking out the sound of an acoustic kit, as others have said an electric kit might be a better bet, or custom ear plugs, seems a load of trouble to go to just so the drummer can get the bit of extra clarity he'd lose, say, using ACS custom ear plugs Lots of gigging musicians (including drummers) playing the biggest stadiums and festival stages rely on in ear monitors. They can then also hear themselves over massive PA systems that are louder than a drum kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 8 minutes ago, MichaelDean said: Lots of gigging musicians (including drummers) playing the biggest stadiums and festival stages rely on in ear monitors. They can then also hear themselves over massive PA systems that are louder than a drum kit. the OP has not said what size venues the band plays, presumable not very big otherwise they wouldn't need their own PA, if the drummer can't hear his own kit the on stage the sound must be way too loud, at big venues the band shouldn't hear much of the FOH sound. The OP also asked the question would musician grade ear plugs be the answer, if it were me (and it's not) I would try those first before investing in extra kit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 @PaulWarning, yes, I agree, that OP also probably doesn't play the biggest stages. I was just trying to get across how in ear monitors are totally suitable for hearing a monitor mix over the sound of an acoustic kit or even louder sound sources. His drummer's wish to use IEMs shouldn't be entirely dismissed because he doesn't feel the need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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