IEM's, new desk. Who then owns the equipment?

[TimR]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

true, but like I said a few posts ago this does

https://www.andertons.co.uk/live-pa/live-headphones/behringer-ma400-headphone-amplifier

 

I don't think it does. 

[TimR]

If everyone wants their own personal sub mix that's going to either be expensive or complicated. 

 

The XR-12 and 18 will allow you to have several sub mixes. Fairly expensive, especially if you have to factor in a tablet.

 

Else if your mixer has thru I/O (unlikely for a 4 chanel mixer) then each person will need their own mixer and a bunch of leads. 

 

Most bands have a mixer with 2 Aux outs and live with 2 slightly different mixes out to headphone amplifiers or monitor speakers. 

 

We just have one monitor 'mix' with vocals only (sometimes a touch of guitar) driving 2 powered speakers in series. 

 

Sounds to me like you just need more monitors but turn everything down. Which seems to be the main cause of all issues on this forum when it comes to stage volume and hearing yourself. 

 

 

[Dad3353]

I'm a drummer; I've been playing acoustic kits for well over half a century, at all sorts of venues. If a drummer can't hear what's going on, there is quite certainly far too much volume being generated on stage. If things are worsened by using ear protection, doubly so. The first course of action is to have stage volumes at a level whereby all of the instruments, including the drums, can be heard clearly by everyone. For vocals, including BV, some sort of monitoring (foldback...) is reasonable, with either cabs or earphones. There should be no downside to this, in any configuration, except for those that insist that 'their' sound can only be obtained with everything at '11' (this includes some tree-felling drummers...). Without the stage sound being mastered, there is no easy, inexpensive, simple solution; the best way forward, in every case, is to master the stage volume first. Hope this helps. 

[solo4652]

We're a 5-piece pub covers band, playing the local pub circuit. Bass (totally independent through own backline), guitar (totally independent through own backline), guitarist also sings BV's through the desk/PA, keys through the desk/PA, lead vocals through desk/PA, acoustic drums. I'm trying to use KISS principle to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible. We already have a mountain of kit that takes over an hour to set up, and to break down. I'm with PaulWarning - before buying a load more kit which adds complexity and set up time, I'm suggesting that the drummer perseveres with his musician grade ear plugs. Three desk inputs already taken by keys and vocals, leaving one free. If drummer so desires - and it's his choice - he could mix his own mics using his own desk and feed that into band's desk. As for more monitors - we could perhaps put the desk output into a splitter so that anybody who wants their own monitor can plug into that. I accept that this means individuals won't be able to mix their own monitor sound, but keys and vocalists simply being able to hear each other would be a significant step forward. No need for expensive new desk. Would that work?

Edited February 16 by solo4652

[TimR]

What is the Keys using for monitoring? 

 

Does the monitor have keys and vocals in it or does keys have a combo amp? 

[PaulWarning]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

I don't think it does. 

not on it's own, no, it's great for one mic, to give that mic it's own mix, but to use with 3 mics you'd have to have a little mixer before it

[Dad3353]

42 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

... Would that work?

 

All that's needed is a single monitor feed to however many cabs you need for each of you to hear everything clearly. Typically, for line-up you've described, two floor monitors, for those in front, and maybe another one or two for those towards the back. These need not be enormous floor wedges; they could be smaller units, on stands, maybe, or as 'side-fill'. None of this will work, however, if you are all creating too much volume individually. Ideally, one should have the same set-up on stage as when rehearsing, play at rehearsal volume and have the PA project that out to the venue. The modern alternative is to use no back-line at all, and all use IEM, with mic's for the drums or an e-kit, but this is expensive, and has its own issues. If it's all such a problem hearing yourselves on stage : turn it all down. 

[solo4652]

42 minutes ago, TimR said:

What is the Keys using for monitoring? 

 

Does the monitor have keys and vocals in it or does keys have a combo amp? 

Monitor has keys and both vocals through it. Currently, keys player has no personal monitor - she listens to the single monitor out front at singer's feet.

Edited February 16 by solo4652

[TimR]

20 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

Monitor has keys and both vocals through it. Currently, keys player has no personal monitor - she listens to the single monitor out front at singer's feet.

 

I would sort that out first. Keys through a backline amp. 

 

Then you will be able to lose the keys in the vocal monitor and the keys will hear themselves better. 

[KingPrawn]

9 hours ago, solo4652 said:

I'm struggling to fully understand how micing up drums and then feeding them into a desk is going to help with tinnutis. When I suggested musician-grade in-ear protectors, drummer said; "I also already use expensive in ear filtered ear protection and they’re okay but they only muffle the sound and the whole point of monitoring is to improve clarity and also the mix that you’re receiving. The idea is to have a quieter more balanced audio." But he's still going to be pounding away on his acoustic drum kit and making a lot of noise isn't he? That's not going to reduce the overall on-stage sound levels, is it? But, according to him, it isn't about reducing overall sound levels - it's about "improving clarity and,,,,,,,to have a quieter more balanced audio". I'm confused. I did start to read the IEM thread but quickly started to glaze over. 

 

Also - keys player has now decided she would like to have IEM as well as guitarist and drummer.

Dont worry. Changing to IEM is life-changing. It does reduce ear damage as each of you will have total control over the mix you need and the volume you hear the mix at as each unit can set their own volume via your aux outs and the wireless pack. I really think it has made the bands I play in much tighter as players and definitely vocally as you hear your own pitch with much more clarity. There is an argument that you lose the overall vibe or presence of a gig but we often place a couple of mics facing the crowd to add a bit of room presence to the mix. 

[Boodang]

6 hours ago, TimR said:

If everyone wants their own personal sub mix that's going to either be expensive or complicated. 

 

The XR-12 and 18 will allow you to have several sub mixes. Fairly expensive, especially if you have to factor in a tablet.

 

Else if your mixer has thru I/O (unlikely for a 4 chanel mixer) then each person will need their own mixer and a bunch of leads. 

 

Most bands have a mixer with 2 Aux outs and live with 2 slightly different mixes out to headphone amplifiers or monitor speakers. 

 

We just have one monitor 'mix' with vocals only (sometimes a touch of guitar) driving 2 powered speakers in series. 

 

Sounds to me like you just need more monitors but turn everything down. Which seems to be the main cause of all issues on this forum when it comes to stage volume and hearing yourself. 

 

 

Our band has gone xr18 and IEMs, and in the scheme of things we didn't think it was that expensive or complicated. Being a stage box it's easy for everyone to plug into the xr18, we're using cables not wireless to connect the iems but that means no setup issues and it's cheaper / more reliable. Individual monitor mix is a game changer as well. And set up is quicker, the only speakers are foh, and that means less gear to carry (iems are much lighter and take up way less space in the car). Also a huge benefit is the ability for the sound engineer to mix anywhere out front and no snake required. 

We have had to in invest in the hardware to do this including an xtouch and some of us are using the powerplay ultranet units, but selling off our old monitoring system and desk paid for a lot of it.

I have to say though, the overall sound quality and mix is way better than using a combination of backline and PA and we wouldn't go back. Not only that but my back and my ears are thanking me.

[TimR]

@Boodang

 

yes. I mean expensive OR complicated. ie if you try and do it cheap it'll be complicated. 

 

I'm guessing by the time you've bought an XR and an iPad you're well into a £1000+, then there's the IEMs for each member of the band. Everyone will need them if there are no monitors. So that's 5 sets. 

 

Compare this to an analogue mixer and 2 powered monitors and you're not going to get anywhere near £1000. Then it gets complicated taking thrus to additional mixers. 

[Boodang]

42 minutes ago, TimR said:

@Boodang

 

yes. I mean expensive OR complicated. ie if you try and do it cheap it'll be complicated. 

 

I'm guessing by the time you've bought an XR and an iPad you're well into a £1000+, then there's the IEMs for each member of the band. Everyone will need them if there are no monitors. So that's 5 sets. 

 

Compare this to an analogue mixer and 2 powered monitors and you're not going to get anywhere near £1000. Then it gets complicated taking thrus to additional mixers. 

Yep, the xr18 and xtouch comes to 1k, we're using laptops/tablets we already own, and you can add £230 for each powerplay unit. But compared to the cost of the instruments on stage it's actually not that much. But I believe the benefits are huge, especially as with a digital desk you've got all the plugins at your disposal, like pultec eqs and classic compressors.

Each band member bought their own iem, but I bought the rest. The reason for this it that it doubles up as my home studio for which it's brilliant, and I think one of the big reasons to buy a setup like this. 

[Boodang]

...also, I don't think I can go back to an analogue desk now. We've talked about this on another thread, but setting levels, eq'ing, compression, effects etc is so much easier and accurate with the graphical interface and it can all be saved for instant recall. I just can't go back.... I won't go back!!

[alinbassplayer]

I'm on the side of digital here, i play in a fairly aggressive 3 man outfit and both the guitarist(vocalist as well) and myself want to have the boom of the backline behind us, however we use iem's as well, depending on the stage setup we use either or both. We currently have a rack where we house 2 kempers(both bass and guitar), an xr 18, a channel splitter and 3 iems(guitar, bass, drums), basically we each have our own mix, and you can very easily use your own backline, feed the di into the mixer and so on, ideally you would want a multicore cable from your mixer to the stage box, ours is fixed and we each know what cable is what, or alternatively you can tag them, makes things easier for a 4-5 piece band. 

We own our won amps, but we all pitched in(from band merch sales and individual finances when necessary) for the PA the mixer and other cableage and each of us bought their own IEM, guitarist and drummer have LD MEI100g2 and i have the MEI1000, anyway. as i mentioned, you can chose not to use an IEM, but everything is set up in the rack so that we literally just plug cables in and that's it, so setup takes minimally, even if we had to bring in cabs, but most places supply those and they're only used for monitoring. we also own our PA in our practice room but we don;t carry that around with us, again, that's for practicing and monitoring only.

 

so just to sum it up, i am a big fan of simplifying and preparing everything before going on stage, so if you can fit all your monitoring equipment in a rack, do that, sort out the mixes beforehand, and you're set. In regards to the costs, i would say, if there is anything that you would want to keep in case you leave, buy for yourself, IEM system, amp, cab or anything else, otherwise, split the costs and if someone leaves everyone just pays them back for their part in it and that's it, or if they're not bothered and leave on good terms, then they just leave it and it's yours otherwise, yes it gets tedious, and at some point someone will probably end up owning a mixer or smth like that, but unless someone wants to buy it outright this is how things have been in the bands i've been in tbh.

Oh yeah, and before being in this band and playing with iems and kemper, in my previous band, the drummer had his own mixer and iem and everything and he paid for it himself, but the amount of equipment he had to carry was enormous as he played with a rack and not the light kind.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

[solo4652]

So, it's a done deal. Latest message from drummer: "Thanks for looking into things Steve. I’ve built a few PAs with IEMs in them so I’ve got it buddy. Just trying to work out the most cost effective architecture to make it works for us so we can all opt in or out of using them. [Myself and guitarist] will [pay for it] between us. If you could just check your Di out and let me know what type of plug it needs I can take it from there." Currently, I don't use the DI on my head. Not sure I want the added complexity and faff of that.

[TimR]

1 hour ago, solo4652 said:

Currently, I don't use the DI on my head. Not sure I want the added complexity and faff of that.

 

 

It's just a lead to the desk so they can hear the bass in their mix. Otherwise it would be a microphone with even more complications. 

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, solo4652 said:

So, it's a done deal. Latest message from drummer: "Thanks for looking into things Steve. I’ve built a few PAs with IEMs in them so I’ve got it buddy. Just trying to work out the most cost effective architecture to make it works for us so we can all opt in or out of using them. [Myself and guitarist] will [pay for it] between us. If you could just check your Di out and let me know what type of plug it needs I can take it from there." Currently, I don't use the DI on my head. Not sure I want the added complexity and faff of that.

 

It's literally just a cable from the amp's DI to the mixer, you don't need to do anything else if you don't want to go IEM. You carry on as normal, but they can get your bass in their IEMs, nothing more complicated or sinister than that..

 

 

[solo4652]

25 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

It's literally just a cable from the amp's DI to the mixer, you don't need to do anything else if you don't want to go IEM. You carry on as normal, but they can get your bass in their IEMs, nothing more complicated or sinister than that..

 

 

Thank you. 

[Phil Starr]

On 15/02/2024 at 18:55, solo4652 said:

So far, the band PA is for vocals (lead and backing), and keys. The desk was upgraded 6 months ago and is owned by the drummer. Drummer plays acoustic kit, myself and guitarist use our own backline. Rear-facing monitor sits out front. Guitarist (who also does BV's) and drummer have now decided they'd like to use IEM's in order to protect their hearing, and to prevent their tinnutis getting worse. This will need a new desk with more inputs, apparently (I'm clueless about IEM systems)

 

I think it's OK not to want to pay for something you don't really understand so the problem is who pays for it. You also need to ask yourself what you are demanding of them. Then maybe you can discuss the real issue which is money.

 

Technically you need a new desk to improve your monitoring. Until maybe 10 years ago this was almost impossible within a pub band budget but now digital desks are as cheap as similar quality analogue desks and a lot more capable. The big advance is the availability of 6+ aux outputs so everyone who wants can have a separately mixed monitoring channel. You can put these separate mixes through monitor speakers but most pub bands never play on stages big enough to get a separation of sound. Ear plugs don't really work as they always block some frequencies more than others and if your guys are talking about tinnitus the probability is that they already have some hearing loss. The further probability is that it is your band that is causing that loss.

 

If you resist this then you are asking them to continue to lose their hearing so you can stick to what you know. That is a huge ask.

 

It is perfectly reasonable for you to say you can't afford it or to say you don't want in-ears yourself (though in the end your hearing will be damaged too). Your band need a grown up discussion about money and I think you need to accept the decision to make the change. It will be all the better for you too in the end, you are pretty lucky to have people in the band with the expertise and energy to make this change. In-ear monitors will improve their playing and singing and the new mixer will improve your FOH sound for the audience and hopefully more and better gigs as a result. I'm sure that thinking about this you won't feel you can ask them to suffer further hearing damage.

 

If it helps I sold my old analogue desk and got 60% of the cost of my digital desk back from the sale. Maybe as a band give the drummer a fee from one of your gigs to go towards his purchase. Once you realise you are just dicussing how to fund it things should move along a bit better.

[solo4652]

@Phil Starr  Thank you - that's a helpful and thoughtful response. Actually, from my perspective, the real issue is not money. It's striving for low-faff simplicity. The band already takes ages to set up, with pedal boards (not mine), patch leads, radio mics, drum mics. Often there's a loose connection somewhere, or a piece of equipment doesn't "talk" to some other piece. Stage-space is becoming more and more limited. Recently, the drummer had a major moan about having to transport and store the existing PA system  (which he owns), complaining that the rest of the band could do more to help with load-in, set-up, load-out. I stand off to one side shaking my head. The drummer is a bit of a gear-head. He seems to enjoy building IEM PA systems. His last one was for an acoustic duo. He played cajon alongside an acoustic guitarist/singer. I went to one of their gigs and it took them 45 minutes to set up. IEM's for an acoustic duo!? Really? He's already got himself tooled up with a new desk, new drum mics, loads of leads for our band's new IEM system - it's what he does even though, from my viewpoint from the touchline, I wonder whether it's over-egging the pudding. Emperor's new clothes, and all that.

[PaulWarning]

36 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

@Phil Starr  Thank you - that's a helpful and thoughtful response. Actually, from my perspective, the real issue is not money. It's striving for low-faff simplicity. The band already takes ages to set up, with pedal boards (not mine), patch leads, radio mics, drum mics. Often there's a loose connection somewhere, or a piece of equipment doesn't "talk" to some other piece. Stage-space is becoming more and more limited. Recently, the drummer had a major moan about having to transport and store the existing PA system  (which he owns), complaining that the rest of the band could do more to help with load-in, set-up, load-out. I stand off to one side shaking my head. The drummer is a bit of a gear-head. He seems to enjoy building IEM PA systems. His last one was for an acoustic duo. He played cajon alongside an acoustic guitarist/singer. I went to one of their gigs and it took them 45 minutes to set up. IEM's for an acoustic duo!? Really? He's already got himself tooled up with a new desk, new drum mics, loads of leads for our band's new IEM system - it's what he does even though, from my viewpoint from the touchline, I wonder whether it's over-egging the pudding. Emperor's new clothes, and all that.

this is the reason I wouldn't like to go down the 'everything miced up and everybody has IEM route' (although the singer has them, but he says he can hear enough on stage without anything else going through them)

I don't like the setting up taking down of the PA (me and the drummer do it) especially after the gig, so the simpler it is the better I like it

[Phil Starr]

57 minutes ago, solo4652 said:

@Phil Starr  Thank you - that's a helpful and thoughtful response. Actually, from my perspective, the real issue is not money. It's striving for low-faff simplicity. The band already takes ages to set up, with pedal boards (not mine), patch leads, radio mics, drum mics. Often there's a loose connection somewhere, or a piece of equipment doesn't "talk" to some other piece. Stage-space is becoming more and more limited. Recently, the drummer had a major moan about having to transport and store the existing PA system  (which he owns), complaining that the rest of the band could do more to help with load-in, set-up, load-out. I stand off to one side shaking my head. The drummer is a bit of a gear-head. He seems to enjoy building IEM PA systems. His last one was for an acoustic duo. He played cajon alongside an acoustic guitarist/singer. I went to one of their gigs and it took them 45 minutes to set up. IEM's for an acoustic duo!? Really? He's already got himself tooled up with a new desk, new drum mics, loads of leads for our band's new IEM system - it's what he does even though, from my viewpoint from the touchline, I wonder whether it's over-egging the pudding. Emperor's new clothes, and all that.

I feel your pain, one of my drummers was also trained as a sound engineer and a gear head. Drummers by nature seem to be sound heads too. One cymbal sounds like another to me but they can be very particular about their kit. Eventually that band which was so full of promise broke up because partly because the rest of the band got fed up with time wasted at rehearsals. Equally the two things that take time with every band at gigs are the kit and the PA. I do PA for my bands and drummist and I are always first to arrive and last to leave.

 

In this case I don't think it makes things more complex. Hopefully you'll end up with a 'stagebox' type mixer run with a laptop or tablet. From the bands point of view this is like the business end of an old fashioned 'snake' and they can all just plug in whatever they use. I've labelled up the sockets for my lot to plug in to. As people plug in you can see what they've done and if it is all working on screen so no need for any more one-two's and broken leads/hum loops etc show up straight away. At the end of the gig you can save the settings and after a couple of gigs use the same set up every time. Most/some of these mixers will even do the room eq for you. The band furthest down the line/early adopters now sort out their own in-ears, again labelled sockets on the mixer but they can (and do) all use their phones to adjust their own mixes without affecting anyone elses. There will be a few gigs getting used to it but eventually it will be simpler/quicker IME.

 

Funnily enough I also have a semi-acoustic duo. I must admit that so far we don't use in ears, I sing more in the duo and it's quite nice to keep the noise levels down and listen to the 'air' I keep having to stop my singer/guitarist from upping his own volume though.

 

Honestly it's worth the journey though, let them sort out the in-ears for themselves then I suggest you try them for yourself. It'll save your hearing and improve your playing (nothing like me hearing every mistake I make to help me up my game). It is the future and I'd never go back to the average band's volume wars. Good luck with your band

Edited February 18 by Phil Starr

[Boodang]

Going digital stage box and full iem (no back line) has both massively simplified our setup and improved our sound. Every band member gets a monitor mix that’s clear wherever they are on stage, plus they control there own mix, and the settings are saved so normally it’s just a case of eq’ing for the venue. 
Setup and pack up times are greatly reduced. After all it’s just a stage box and cables, and it’s the drum kit that takes the longest to setup. Oh and volume on stage is v low. Any potential downsides like having a sentimental attachment to an amp, are far outweighed by a better sound, low stage volume, less gear to carry, quicker setup time and clear monitor mix. 

Edited February 18 by Boodang

[solo4652]

Drummer's new mixer is one of these; https://www.studiospares.com/studiomatser-club-xs-16-16-channel-mixer-860080.htm  That's not a "digital stage box", is it? Pardon my ignorance..

 

Edited February 18 by solo4652