Help building a rig

[WrexhamBassist]

I've just started gigging for the first time and I'm finding that my rig isn't cutting it.

 

I have a crappy TC Electronic BQ250 head (min 4 Ohm) going into an 8 Ohm Fender Rumble 112 v3 cab.

 

The consensus is that it's not loud enough.

 

We've rigged up a line out to a desk and back out to a PA speaker to get the volume right, but the tone sounds nothing like I get at home with low volume.

 

The sound is very muddy and lacks definition (and that's when I'm able to hear myself in the mix).

 

I like funk, soul, pop, disco, Motown and RnB.

 

I wondered if anyone could please help me build a rig that can be heard but with a decent tone (and that won't break the bank!)

 

I see a lot of positive stuff about Markbass, and once played a great one on stage many years ago.

Edited February 18 by WrexhamBassist

[Japhet]

What other instruments do you have in the band , what sort of music do you play, what sort of gigs do you do? Also what sort of budget do you have? These things will help people to give you objective advice.

[Lozz196]

I think I’d capitalise on the Fender Rumble 112 by getting another one, then add in an amp head of choice - to be safe I’d look at a 500 watt head so as to not have to push it.  Plenty of choice out there, and especially on here. 

[Downunderwonder]

16 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I think I’d capitalise on the Fender Rumble 112 by getting another one, then add in an amp head of choice - to be safe I’d look at a 500 watt head so as to not have to push it.  Plenty of choice out there, and especially on here. 

This. You may even find the full TC wattage through twin cabs quite loud enough without need of MOAR POWER.

 

Two cabs is like having 2 times the watts just for being more efficient at converting power into sound than one cab. Then you actually do get something like half as much power again out of the amp at 4 ohms, so there's an extra kick from that too.

 

TLDR, two cabs is vastly louder than one cab when there is a small amp.

[jrixn1]

13 hours ago, WrexhamBassist said:

the tone sounds nothing like I get at home with low volume.

 

The sound is very muddy and lacks definition

 

What bass do you have and how are you EQing?  What sounds good at home doesn't always transfer well to the stage.  If for example you are boosting the lows at home, that could cause muddiness and a lack of definition on the gig.  I'm playing the same style of music as you on a P bass with flats, although my amp is different to yours.  Looking at the BQ250 its EQ points are "Bass" 80Hz, "Lo-Mid" 400Hz, "Hi-Mid" 800Hz, and "Treble" 10kHz.  I'd start with the Bass and Treble rolled back a bit, and the Lo-Mid and Hi-Mid at noon.

[Dan Dare]

If you can, visit a well-stocked shop and try stuff out, rather than buying on the basis of recommendation alone. The good news is that most gear from reputable brands is very good these days. It appears you may not be that familiar with what's about, so a fact-finding mission should be helpful.

 

If you really aren't in reach of any shop with a decent range in stock, the suggestion above to get another Rumble cab like the one you have, plus a better head is a safe option. TC are prone to be optimistic with their claimed power outputs. Most stuff will sound good at living room volumes. It's only when you push things that any shortcomings are revealed.

 

If you like Markbass, a used LM2 or 3 shouldn't break the bank and will certainly do the job with two Rumble cabs. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

13 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Two cabs is like having 2 times the watts just for being more efficient at converting power into sound than one cab. Then you actually do get something like half as much power again out of the amp at 4 ohms, so there's an extra kick from that too.

Doubling the cab count gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity/maximum output, which is the equivalent of increasing power by a factor of four. The higher power output from the amp when the impedance load is halved doesn't result in the increased output, it's just a byproduct of the process. Putting the second cab atop the first makes the mids and highs more easily heard, which also increases the perceived loudness. If that's not enough then a better amp can be tried. While the 500w rating of the neo Rumble 112 is so much fluff it's loaded with a Basslite 2012, which has a real world mechanical capacity of 150w. A pair of them could handle a lot more amp than the TC the OP has.

[Dan Dare]

2 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

While the 500w rating of the neo Rumble 112 is so much fluff it's loaded with a Basslite 2012, which has a real world mechanical capacity of 150w. A pair of them could handle a lot more amp than the TC the OP has.

 

Bill, what do you think of the Basslite drivers? They appear to offer decent value for money. I'm wondering whether to take a punt on a couple to put in an old cab I have. It's not really worth splashing out on Deltalites or similar.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

They're quite good. They don't have the thermal capacity of the Deltalites but they have what really matters, xmax. At 5.2mm the 2012 has more output capability than the 2512 with 4.9mm. I run a 2012 in my personal JackLite 12 cab and it does the job nicely, while weighing almost nothing.

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Doubling the cab count gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity/maximum output, which is the equivalent of increasing power by a factor of four.

I was accounting for the actual increased power output separately to the sensitivity advantage. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I know, but that's not how it works. Cone excursion, which creates the sound waves we hear, isn't created by power, it's created by voltage swing. The voltage output of an amp is a constant into any impedance load. When you have one driver/speaker driven with a given voltage the cone will travel 'x' millimeters. When you add a second identical driver/speaker parallel wired the amp will deliver that same given voltage into both, so both cones will travel 'x' millimeters. This results in a doubling of the cone displacement. When you do that sensitivity goes up by 6dB, as does maximum SPL. Power only enters the equation insofar as the halving of the impedance load with the doubling of drivers/speakers parallel wired also doubles the current draw on the amp. Doubling current while maintaining constant voltage doubles power, but it's not that doubling of power that gives higher sensitivity or maximum SPL, it's the doubling of the cone area while maintaining constant excursion via constant voltage.

[Downunderwonder]

You are having the cake and eating the cake at the same time. I put a little delay on it is all.

 

With a class D amp you don't get the double power to go with the impedance halving that used to be the case with solid state amps. So something less than 6dB extra unless TC have gone back to A/B somewhere along the line.

 

Quid pro quo the available 8 ohm voltage is not actually maintained at the rated 4 ohm balls out level.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

You always get twice the power when you double the current via halving the impedance while maintaining the same voltage swing. That's an immutable law of physics. What can happen with not only Class D but with every amp class is that there's power supply sag at full power into a lower impedance load, so the amp can't deliver twice the current while maintaining voltage swing. That's why the full power rating doesn't double with halved impedance load. At less than full power it does double.

[Downunderwonder]

58 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

At less than full power it does double.

OP is already at full power with the one cab!!!

Edited February 20 by Downunderwonder

[warwickhunt]

4 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

OP is already at full power with the one cab!!!

 

I'm always sceptical when terms like 'full power' are used; is full power when the output gain/volume/dial is on max rotation and the input gain/volume/dial is turned sufficient to get a clip light indication or till it starts to distort?  I know of clip lights that are set to come on before any clipping and some that vary colour (green, amber, red) depending on how close to clipping but would you only be full power if in the red, if not how can a musician at a gig/rehearsal tell when full power is achieved without taking multi-meter readings? 

 

Genuine question not any form of dig.  

[Downunderwonder]

23 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I'm always sceptical when terms like 'full power' are used; is full power when the output gain/volume/dial is on max rotation and the input gain/volume/dial is turned sufficient to get a clip light indication or till it starts to distort?  I know of clip lights that are set to come on before any clipping and some that vary colour (green, amber, red) depending on how close to clipping but would you only be full power if in the red, if not how can a musician at a gig/rehearsal tell when full power is achieved without taking multi-meter readings? 

 

Genuine question not any form of dig.  

When gains are turned up to no avail either the amp has run out of poke or the speaker is either overheating or distorting, or both, or all at the same time.

 

I don't know that I could tell only from listening where a distortion was originating. My experience and knowledge of gear would guide me.

 

Since the OP speaker hasn't died the OP must be sensitive to the signs or the amp hasn't enough poke. As he is asking what he should do I can't give him enough credit to recognise the signs therefore the amp is lacking the poke at 8ohm to kill the cab. It is at full output with the one cab.

 

I could be wrong. There is a bit of reading between lines.

[SimonK]

If you are on a budget I would consider how much weight you are happy to deal with. If you generally have good transport options you can get some absolutely killer second hand rigs that will be more than loud enough in a band. I'm a big fan of the older Trace Elliot stuff, which yes is heavy, but it sounds great and is loud. The saying used to be that there are Watts, and there are Trace Elliot Watts, although this reflects Trace reporting continuous rather than peak power. Just looking on ebay at the moment there is a 300W GP12 1210 for £300 which isn't a bad price and will be louder than most drummers. If you have £600 (although I would try to knock it down a bit) there is a AH250 stack although I used to have a near identical amp and got rid of it due to weight (but the built in black light is very cool!).

 

The other thing to remember is that speaker area makes a big difference. For instance a 4x10 cab gives you an area of 315ish square inches while a 1x15 only 176, so for the same Wattage 4x10 is much louder.

Edited February 20 by SimonK

[warwickhunt]

22 minutes ago, SimonK said:

The saying used to be that there are Watts, and there are Trace Elliot Watts...

 

Part of this was down to the fact that the output control was such that you had most of the output delivered in the first 1/3 of travel (or less).  The first time you used a TE, you'd go to turn up the output (after setting the input) and 'BOOM' before you were past #2 you had volume enough to scare the beejeesus out of other band members. 

[Dan Dare]

All of which demonstrates that the OP's TC head is not up to the job.

 

1 hour ago, SimonK said:

there are Watts, and there are Trace Elliot Watts

 

TC watts are even smaller...

[Lozz196]

Yep, 125 watts (assuming it’s exactly half power of the 250) into a 112 is a big ask in a band scenario. That amp might be ok with two of those 112s as a temporary measure but I’d be wanting a bit more I think.

[msb]

I like the modular approach , and doing continuous upgrades as you go.

 

(and when opportunity arises)

 

Rigs are built up over time. I’ve bought and sold , and generally upgraded as I went. Picked up various amps and cabs to cover various needs. If I see a good local deal I might snap it up. I don’t have any allegiance to one company or product. There is a ton of great gear out there! 
 

I’m always looking.

[tauzero]

22 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

You always get twice the power when you double the current via halving the impedance while maintaining the same voltage swing. That's an immutable law of physics. What can happen with not only Class D but with every amp class is that there's power supply sag at full power into a lower impedance load, so the amp can't deliver twice the current while maintaining voltage swing. That's why the full power rating doesn't double with halved impedance load. At less than full power it does double.

 

There's also the output impedance of the power amp to take into account. While it will be a fraction of an ohm, it still forms a potential divider with the speaker, and as the impedance of the speaker is halved by putting two in parallel, so the proportion of the voltage across the speakers relative to the output voltage is reduced correspondingly.

[stevie]

If I were in the OP's position, I'd concentrate initially of sorting out the cab. At the amp shootout at the last SW Bass Bash, we tested and compared a range of low powered mini-heads through an LFSys Monaco. At one point, one of the amps was driven into clipping to see how loud it would go. There's no doubt that they all produced an SPL that was more than enough for your average pub/club gig. So I wouldn't worry too much about the amp at this stage, although it's always nice to have more power on tap.

 

"The sound is very muddy and lacks definition (and that's when I'm able to hear myself in the mix)."

 

I'm afraid that's what cheap cabs sound like. To get to a low price point, manufacturers specify drivers with small magnets and small voice coils, which distort easily and tend to produce a one-note bass. If you buy a second one, you'll still have a muddy, undefined sound - but louder. You might be able to hear your self a bit better by virtue of the fact that the second cab is closer to your ears.

 

As @Dan Dare advises, you need to try out some more cabs. Don't rely on forum recommendations. If money's tight, go for a used 15" cab made by a decent brand. Fifteens have fallen out of favour nowadays and can be picked up for very little money. A decent fifteen will do the job for you. As far as hearing yourself is concerned, try turning the midrange control up on your amp, or tilt the cab so that it's directed towards you.

[SimonK]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

If I were in the OP's position, I'd concentrate initially of sorting out the cab. At the amp shootout at the last SW Bass Bash, we tested and compared a range of low powered mini-heads through an LFSys Monaco. At one point, one of the amps was driven into clipping to see how loud it would go. There's no doubt that they all produced an SPL that was more than enough for your average pub/club gig. So I wouldn't worry too much about the amp at this stage, although it's always nice to have more power on tap.

 

"The sound is very muddy and lacks definition (and that's when I'm able to hear myself in the mix)."

 

I'm afraid that's what cheap cabs sound like. To get to a low price point, manufacturers specify drivers with small magnets and small voice coils, which distort easily and tend to produce a one-note bass. If you buy a second one, you'll still have a muddy, undefined sound - but louder. You might be able to hear your self a bit better by virtue of the fact that the second cab is closer to your ears.

 

As @Dan Dare advises, you need to try out some more cabs. Don't rely on forum recommendations. If money's tight, go for a used 15" cab made by a decent brand. Fifteens have fallen out of favour nowadays and can be picked up for very little money. A decent fifteen will do the job for you. As far as hearing yourself is concerned, try turning the midrange control up on your amp, or tilt the cab so that it's directed towards you.

It's funny how although we know that it is the speaker & cab that actually moves the air that our ear subsequently detects, as musicians/guitarists/bass players we get so fixated with other things that we stray away from the basic principle that if the speaker & cab is crap, it doesn't matter what you plug into it, the sound will be crap! If we chose gear with our ears rather than heart we would probably all be rocking the most expensive cabs and somewhat cheaper basses...

 

One thing I would say, however, is if you want to cut through a mix and get maximum volume for size of cab I would go for a 4x10 over a 1x15 every time. The maths shows it will be about twice as loud (as mentioned above, 176 sq in for a 1x15, 315 for 4x10) and to my subjective ear I think they cut through mixes better (but accept others will have different views on this one point). I think if you look around there are plenty of people down-sizing and getting rid of 4x10s given the apparent new craze for 2x10s and 2x12s.

 

[Dan Dare]

On 22/02/2024 at 17:32, SimonK said:

we stray away from the basic principle that if the speaker & cab is crap, it doesn't matter what you plug into it, the sound will be crap!

 

A Rumble 112 cab isn't "crap", though. May not be state of the art, but perfectly decent.