Does a Low B really work on sub 34” scales?

[Dazed]

Does a Low B really work on sub 34” scales? 
If they do, are there specific build secrets that make it work?

[bassist_lewis]

I have a 30" scale Serek Midwestern 5 and the low B is great, possibly the best I've had, and I've owned 34 and 35" basses. Before I got ym first short scale 5er (Callowhill) I did a LOT of research into scale length and the effect it has on the quality of a low B. The bottom line is that scale length is only one of several factors that contribute to a great sounding B string. The overall construction of the bass - neck material/dimensions, how it's built (1/2/3/5 piece etc), the quality of the neck joint and even just the properties of the piece(s) of wood used - all have an impact on the sound. I believe Jake Serek gets two bits of flat sawn wood and glues them together in such a way as to create the same effect and stability of quarter sawn. In the past Alan at ACG has used carbon inserts to add stiffness to his short scale 5er necks.

The string you use will also make a difference, but there don't seem to be hard and fast rules as to what strings work best, though a lot of players are finding that a lower gauge is (counter-intuitively) better. Electronics have some impact, but they will just enhance what is already there. They won't compensate for a bad B.

What I did find interesting  was a story from Spencer Lull (I think) of Mike Lull bass/guitars on a the SBL podcast (somewhere on YT). They once built a 34" scale 5 string bass and the B was awful. No one understood exactly why, but it wasn't good enough to sell, so they just rebuilt it (poor buyer was made to wait!). My takeaway is that every builder has their methods of getting a good B, regardless of what scale length they work with, but even then there's an element of chance/magic/je ne sais quoi when it comes to getting a great B.

Hope that helps!

[fretmeister]

My 32 Mezzo B is very good. 

[Chris2112]

I've heard people say that their bass is the exception to the norm and that it has a thunderous low B with less than 34" scale. I've heard some 33" scales pull it off to a degree but at less than that, I remain unconvinced.

 

That said, when I think of the best low B strings I've heard in my life they were all on 34" scale basses! 

[bassist_lewis]

1 minute ago, Chris2112 said:

I've heard people say that their bass is the exception to the norm and that it has a thunderous low B with less than 34" scale. I've heard some 33" scales pull it off to a degree but at less than that, I remain unconvinced.

 

That said, when I think of the best low B strings I've heard in my life they were all on 34" scale basses! 

That was the one factor I missed: your own ears!

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

The only low B I've ever liked is on my NS Design CR-5M which has a 41.73" scale length

[Owen]

I have a couple of 33" and the B is not naturally as balanced as it is with my 35"ers and certainly not as my 36"er. BUT a 25% boost on the onboard active bass EQ and it is happy days. Also my TC multiband compressor make the magic happen. So the longer scale does (for me) make a difference. But I really like the tension of the 33" and can mitigate the issues using eq and some multiband compression. 

[tauzero]

The low B on my Kala U-Bass Sub 5 is fine - scale length 20.5 inches. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

I refrained from voting as I never heard any low B on any bass, regardless of scale length, actually sound great.

 

And as far as I am concerned anything bellow low D1 (that is 2 half steps bellow regular 4 string bass low E) just doesn't work all that well for bass guitar.

 

It does sound great on a grand piano though.

 

Edited February 21 by Baloney Balderdash

[SamIAm]

I've a 5er 34 inch fretless for comparison; my Sub short scale (28.6) ibby 5er has a good sounding low B, it does require a gentle touch tho!

Sam x

[eude]

I play 31.5" basses exclusively, all ACGs.

All my current basses have a low B (although I have a 4 on the way) and they are absolutely brilliant.

As @bassist_lewis mentioned above, there are a lot of other factors that determine how good a low B sounds and feels, so if a luthier has figured out the secret sauce, it's possible to create a very musical low B on a shorter scale bass.

Neck rigidity, how well the neck meets the body, break angles over the nut and bridge, string choice, all play a very big part, and I would argue, if you can get those right, the scale length has less of an impact.

And, I actually went for lighter strings when I went shorter, which to my ear can counteract some of the more bassiness you can get when you go shorter.

 

I used to play 34" basses, had a spell on 36", and then discovered 33" scale which I played for about 10 years I think. From there I moved to 31.5" and I am very happy where I am now.

Anyone out there who thinks it can't work, I suggest you try it, you might like it

 

Eude

[rmorris]

There seems to be a lack of people mentioning string guages and string types here. It's a critical part of the equation defining the string tension required. It's related to, but not the same as string flexibility. Flexibility is affected by string make up eg hex or round core. Ratio of core to winding.

As with short scale in general, harmonic response may be impaired by a thicker string but the tension decreased. Many feel that the extra "snap" of the thicker string and the lower action possible compensates.

[ezbass]

Always thought the B was better on my ‘Ray5 (34) than my Lakland (35).

[eude]

2 minutes ago, rmorris said:

There seems to be a lack of people mentioning string guages and string types here. It's a critical part of the equation defining the string tension required. It's related to, but not the same as string flexibility. Flexibility is affected by string make up eg hex or round core. Ratio of core to winding.

As with short scale in general, harmonic response may be impaired by a thicker string but the tension decreased. Many feel that the extra "snap" of the thicker string and the lower action possible compensates.

Very good point.
I get custom wound Newtone Nickels, using slightly thicker than usual hex cores which is intended to help a 100 E feel more like a 105 on the same scale length.

I have tried regular long scales on my basses too, and the only real complaint would be too much string on the tuning post.

[Kev]

If there's one thing I've learnt by owning dozens and dozens of basses over the years, its that scale length is only a very small part of what makes a good B.

 

Far, far more influential for me is the neck relief, action and string gauge, and there is definitely something going on with neck/bass construction too that I don't pretend to understand.  Two B strings on two 34" scale basses can sound and feel entirely different, even with identical setups.  I remember a few years ago I had a 34" Thumb bass that, no matter what I did, had the deadest, dullest B string imaginable, whilst simultaneously owning a 34" Alpher Mako bass that had the clearest, tightest B I could want.   Same strings (even swapping the strings on both), same setup, unplugged so no pickup/preamp involvement, one sounded great and one sounded unusable.  Go figure...

 

 

[ead]

This a lot to do with physics surely.  Depending upon the speaking length of the string you need to consider gauge and construction.  I'm sure tone woods and hardware play a part, but there are plenty of formulae knocking about the with give you guidance on tension for a given gauge of string on a given scale length.   String construction will then affect stiffness etc.

 

Then you have the pickups and the rest of the signal chain to consider.  I like a high pass filter to get rid of a lot of the really low rumbly stuff and than really helps to clear up what goes to the amp/cab.

[Kev]

At risk of sounding silly, surely tension goes beyond the speaking length of the string?  If you have a 37" B that has a tuning peg really close to the nut and a string anchor really close to the saddle, and you have a 34" B that has a tuning peg on the far end of the headstock and a saddle a good distance from the ball end, does the 37" truly have anything like 3 inches/equivalent lbs more tension?  I don't see how it can, which again will play a part.  My headless Leduc 34" scale has a really notably articulate B, yet it anchors directly behind the nut and the break angle is close to ball end, so its as short a string as you can get on a 34" bass really, therefore lowest tension, but still sounds and plays better than most?

Edited February 21 by Kev

[TheGreek]

I have a 33" built by @Lukasz Chyla and a 30" built by @Jabba_the_gut both have a low B that I am happy with. 

I have tapewounds on both so that may have some impact of the playability. 

[eude]

54 minutes ago, Kev said:

At risk of sounding silly, surely tension goes beyond the speaking length of the string?  If you have a 37" B that has a tuning peg really close to the nut and a string anchor really close to the saddle, and you have a 34" B that has a tuning peg on the far end of the headstock and a saddle a good distance from the ball end, does the 37" truly have anything like 3 inches/equivalent lbs more tension?  I don't see how it can, which again will play a part.  My headless Leduc 34" scale has a really notably articulate B, yet it anchors directly behind the nut and the break angle is close to ball end, so its as short a string as you can get on a 34" bass really, therefore lowest tension, but still sounds and plays better than most?

Well executed break angles on a bass at the bridge and nut render the length of the string beyond the speaking length, i.e. beyond the nut and the bridge saddle, irrelevant, and is a big part of getting this stuff right on any scale length.

It works so well on your Leduc as it's a really well designed and well built bass

[LeftyJ]

3 hours ago, Kev said:

At risk of sounding silly, surely tension goes beyond the speaking length of the string?  If you have a 37" B that has a tuning peg really close to the nut and a string anchor really close to the saddle, and you have a 34" B that has a tuning peg on the far end of the headstock and a saddle a good distance from the ball end, does the 37" truly have anything like 3 inches/equivalent lbs more tension?  I don't see how it can, which again will play a part.  My headless Leduc 34" scale has a really notably articulate B, yet it anchors directly behind the nut and the break angle is close to ball end, so its as short a string as you can get on a 34" bass really, therefore lowest tension, but still sounds and plays better than most?

This has always boggled my mind: I don't understand the benefit of, for example, that weird extended low B that some Fodera's have.

 

 

People will also claim a reversed headstock alters the tone of a guitar or bass - but I just don't understand. Just to make things clear: I don't claim it's a hoax. I just don't understand 

[knirirr]

Personally, I have never liked the B string, not even on a bass I had with a 38" scale (it did make playing some tunes easier, though).

I ordered a set of custom strings from Pyramid (E-C) for the other half's 5-string (23.5" scale) Bee and took these to a good tech. When he handed it back he said something along the lines of "amazing tone from the B string on that bass. I'd never have guessed it would work on such a short scale."
A look at the packets (which I'd never bothered to open) confirmed that Pyramid had ignored my instructions and sent a B-G set instead.

IMO the B string is unimpressive on this small bass guitar, but at least that tech liked it.

[Obrienp]

Basic question: what are the characteristics that define a good B string? Are we talking sound, or feel, or a combination of both?
 

I have had an Ibanez TMB35 and I didn’t think the B string was any better or worse than on the Ibanez AFR Affirma 5 that I had. It was a lot easier to play though, because of the shorter scale and narrower neck. Perhaps I don’t understand what a good B string is though……

 

BTW, if we are talking sound/tone, I would suggest the rig you are playing it through could make a huge difference. Looking at specs for bass speaker cabinets, I am amazed at how many have a frequency range that starts above 40 hertz, which is about an open E string. I know that doesn’t mean they can’t reproduce that frequency but there will be a fall off in DB. Apparently low B is around 31 Hz, so many cabs are going to struggle to reproduce that at the same SPL, which I am guessing could make a B string sound weak in comparison to the other strings.

 

Explain to me why I am wrong.

[itu]

1 hour ago, Obrienp said:

Basic question: what are the characteristics that define a good B string?
 

I have had an Ibanez TMB35 and I didn’t think the B string was any better or worse than on the Ibanez AFR Affirma 5...

 

BTW, if we are talking sound/tone, I would suggest the rig you are playing it through could make a huge difference...

The characteristics, well, I like evenness through all strings. All my basses have light (40-95, 120) SS RW strings. Some thicker sets have been uneven soundwise, and I like light touch.

 

I have chosen my basses to please my ear. But the strings have been an essential part. I did extensive trials to find the ones that fit my preferences. GHS and D'Addario are my current favourites, because their quality is good.

 

Bass rigs are practically functional from around 60 Hz. There's very little power a cab can produce under that. Try a HPF! But it is true that especially cab means a lot in the equation. Amps have their own sound, but the cabs are the hard ones to design. To find a good rig, yes, that takes time, too. Now I am happy. But I should play more.

[NickA]

The only bass I've tried that had a b string I like is my Mk2 Wal ( though it has other issues that make it less perfect).

 

Mr Chowny told me, at a bass bash, that you can go down to 32.5" and still get a good B ( hence the Chowny nt5 )... He's wrong, it wasn't great.

 

But I'm not sure it's scale length that matters, as stingray and fender 5s have the same scale as the Wal but the b sounds "flobby" ..yet I've heard ( but not played) a few Warwick 5ers that really do sound great all the way down and a medium scale ACG 6 string that sounds great.  Get the pickups right and the scale is maybe less important?

[eude]

6 hours ago, LeftyJ said:

This has always boggled my mind: I don't understand the benefit of, for example, that weird extended low B that some Fodera's have.

 

 

People will also claim a reversed headstock alters the tone of a guitar or bass - but I just don't understand. Just to make things clear: I don't claim it's a hoax. I just don't understand 

To be honest, I don't think this does anything bar making it easier to use a LONG scale string on their 33" scale basses.
If the bass is designed, built and set up properly, which you hope it would be for Fodera money, anything beyond the nut is pointless.

I do kinda dig how it looks though, but I appreciate it's a little funky looking