Which companies are dead to you?

[tegs07]

6 minutes ago, Jack said:

I think you think that's a pro, when it's actually a con.

 

I'm a digital learning consultant by trade. Whilst I'm not technically an IT professional I am IT-adjacent and I fully appreciate the benefits of integration and management for an organisation. Active directory, single sign on and centralised MFA are all very useful tools to name just 3 and I do appreciate that my job would be extremely different without Teams. I might actually have to go into the office. Like, in town. My work provides a Thinkpad, it's a great piece of hardware and the Windows stuff doesn't bother me because I don't have to manage it. But I did have to wait 4 days last week for someone to reinstall Adobe Creative Cloud because a mandatory Windows update had broken CC, which meant that I couldn't actually use any of the Adobe apps that were already installed and working fine on my PC. But, the apps rely on CC... This is an Adobe problem for sure but if I hadn't been forced to upgrade and if all of the updaters actually talked to each other then we wouldn't have had this problem. Like, I dunno. sudo apt-get upgrade?

 

However, firstly all of those management things are possible on Linux too. Hell, our Windows servers are all virtualised anyway, running on Linux machines for stability. And secondly, none of that matters for a home user. Home users want to turn a computer on, have it work, and do something. They don't need an AI assistant, adverts, integration with xbox, adverts, candy crush, a million free trials, adverts, forced updates, adverts, an army of widgets vying for attention, adverts, everything starting on startup, adverts, antivirus software, or adverts. And if they do, they can install them.

I also work in IT and what people run as an OS is becoming less and less important to us, nor is the device they are using whether it’s an iPad or a PC.

Microsoft are supplying the glue to hold all of this together and make it secure. 

 

CA, modern auth, Ark, sentinel, intune(endpoint), office 365, team’s voice etc etc etc

 

Btw a properly implemented auto pilot deployment with a sys admin that knows how to use endpoint will solve all the problems you have listed.

 

 

Edited April 22 by tegs07

[Jack]

3 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I also work in IT and what people run as an OS is becoming less and less important to us, nor is the device they are using whether it’s an iPad or a PC.

Microsoft are supplying the glue to hold all of this together and make it secure. 

I got the impression that you did which is why I was careful to state that, whilst I play an IT person on TV, I'm not actually an IT person. I'm a teacher.

 

I will surely bow to your more significant expertise but, and I mean this sincerely, HOW are they the glue that's holding all of this together? I totally agree that device and OS are mattering less and less, which is a bloomin' great thing as now we can finally ditch Windows!

[neepheid]

12 minutes ago, Jack said:

Home users want to turn a computer on, have it work, and do something. They don't need an AI assistant, adverts, integration with xbox, adverts, candy crush, adverts, a million free trials, adverts, forced updates, adverts, an army of widgets vying for attention, adverts, everything starting on startup, adverts, antivirus software, or adverts. And if they do, they can install them. The one thing that seems as though it would be really useful to low IT capital personal users is Office 365, particularly having files saved in the cloud. But nobody seems to understand how that works!

 

Our users aren't "home users" though.  The computer they are assigned is a work tool.  They don't have any of those things you describe getting in the way.  That's because we manage our devices, they have Windows installed on them in a manner that we dictate.  Updates are pushed on a delay so we can ok them.  Privilege management is in effect so that we can tread a line between protection and letting people get on with it.

 

In a large, managed environment, such as the one I help maintain, the things you are describing simply don't happen.

[tegs07]

14 minutes ago, Jack said:

I got the impression that you did which is why I was careful to state that, whilst I play an IT person on TV, I'm not actually an IT person. I'm a teacher.

 

I will surely bow to your more significant expertise but, and I mean this sincerely, HOW are they the glue that's holding all of this together? I totally agree that device and OS are mattering less and less, which is a bloomin' great thing as now we can finally ditch Windows!

If you know what endpoint (intune), modern authentication (app registrations), CA, Entra, Purview, Sentinel etc are it would make sense.

 

Physical infrastructure is even slowing becoming obsolete. Pretty soon a couple of switches and a router is all that most sites will need. You don’t need phones or servers, maybe just a few printers.

 

Run whatever OS you want, on whatever device, from wherever you like and it can all be centrally managed including app deployment, SSO to the applications you want with remediation of software failures or security issues. 

 

Its pretty powerful stuff.

Edited April 22 by tegs07

[neepheid]

And another thing, I saw mention of "antivirus software" as an example of things a user doesn't need.  I hope you're joking.  Please tell me you're not hanging on to this old trope that "there are no viruses on Linux".

[Jack]

7 minutes ago, neepheid said:

 

Our users aren't "home users" though.  The computer they are assigned is a work tool.  They don't have any of those things you describe getting in the way.  That's because we manage our devices, they have Windows installed on them in a manner that we dictate.  Updates are pushed on a delay so we can ok them.  Privilege management is in effect so that we can tread a line between protection and letting people get on with it.

 

In a large, managed environment, such as the one I help maintain, the things you are describing simply don't happen.

Well thankfully I was responding to Baloney talking about being a home user.  

 

7 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

If you know what endpoint (intune), modern authentication (app registrations), CA, Entra, Purview, Sentinel etc are it would make sense.

 

Physical infrastructure is even slowing becoming obsolete. Pretty soon a couple of switches and a router is all that most sites will need. You don’t need phones or servers, maybe just a few printers.

 

Run whatever OS you want, on whatever device, from wherever you like and it can all be centrally managed including app deployment, SSO to the applications you want with remediation of software failures or security issues. 

 

Its pretty powerful stuff.

Yes and again I do appreciate the benefits of all of that, I even understand most of it. However, again, I don't know that any of that is something that only Microsoft can give you and also, none of this was in the original discussion. I responded after several posts from home users and non-IT professionals (as far as we know!) talking about how much Windows sucks for them. Specifically, I responded to someone saying that Linux was an inconvenience. I didn't even mention the wider MS ecosystem until you did! Me saying "linux can be much more user friendly than windows" and you saying "but how we possibly start to introduce a data risk management strategy across our 10,000 strong user base whilst still ensuring high availability without Purview?" are kind of two different points.

 

1 minute ago, neepheid said:

And another thing, I saw mention of "antivirus software" as an example of things a user doesn't need.  I hope you're joking.  Please tell me you're not hanging on to this old trope that "there are no viruses on Linux".

God, no. I take my security very seriously. I have just managed that without an annoying ping every 37 seconds that I need to perform a scan or that such and such a program wants to make changes to my pc.

[tegs07]

2 minutes ago, Jack said:

Well thankfully I was responding to Baloney talking about being a home user.  

 

Yes and again I do appreciate the benefits of all of that, I even understand most of it. However, again, I don't know that any of that is something that only Microsoft can give you and also, none of this was in the original discussion. I responded after several posts from home users and non-IT professionals (as far as we know!) talking about how much Windows sucks for them. Specifically, I responded to someone saying that Linux was an inconvenience. I didn't even mention the wider MS ecosystem until you did! Me saying "linux can be much more user friendly than windows" and you saying "but how we possibly start to introduce a data risk management strategy across our 10,000 strong user base whilst still ensuring high availability without Purview?" are kind of two different points.

 

God, no. I take my security very seriously. I have just managed that without an annoying ping every 37 seconds that I need to perform a scan or that such and such a program wants to make changes to my pc.

The thread is about companies that are dead to you. The idea that Microsoft should be included because people don’t like the OS is for me silly because a) the OS is a tiny piece of what they do - particularly for the domestic market and b) if the OS is causing woes in a corporate environment then it is the sys admins that are at fault not Microsoft.

[asingardenof]

41 minutes ago, Jack said:

The one thing that seems as though it would be really useful to low IT capital personal users is Office 365, particularly having files saved in the cloud. But nobody seems to understand how that works!

Honestly having Office 365 is one of the main reasons my home computer is still Windows, because if Microsoft developed a Linux version I'd happily move over completely; as it is I have a 21 year old laptop running Ubuntu out of curiosity more than anything. I imagine most applications where there isn't a Linux equivalent I could run in Wine or something though.

[tegs07]

4 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

Honestly having Office 365 is one of the main reasons my home computer is still Windows, because if Microsoft developed a Linux version I'd happily move over completely; as it is I have a 21 year old laptop running Ubuntu out of curiosity more than anything. I imagine most applications where there isn't a Linux equivalent I could run in Wine or something though.

I run office 365 on a Chromebook and a Mac?

 

Physically installed software is no longer required for office applications (and a whole heap of other SaaS applications).

Edited April 22 by tegs07

[Stub Mandrel]

47 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I also work in IT and what people run as an OS is becoming less and less important to us, nor is the device they are using whether it’s an iPad or a PC.

Microsoft are supplying the glue to hold all of this together and make it secure. 

 

CA, modern auth, Ark, sentinel, intune(endpoint), office 365, team’s voice etc etc etc

 

Btw a properly implemented auto pilot deployment with a sys admin that knows how to use endpoint will solve all the problems you have listed.

 

 

 

Yes, it would be wonderful if they could invent a version of Teams that allows me to run the app in less than twenty-five minutes and four log-on attempts (I just use the online version now).

 

Or perhaps find a way to send me updates without rendering my computer unusable for half a morning.

Or even, just possibly, sort out why my laptop boots from cold in half a minute and my PC takes ten minutes plus, running the same O/S when the (less than three year old) PC is far more powerful and also has an SSD.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I run office 365 on a Chromebook and a Mac?

 

Physically installed software is no longer required.

 

I have to use a physically installed version of Office as it's the only way to keep my Office 365 separate from a client's (I use the somewhat simplified and less versatile online version for this). Otehrwise their Exchange server tries to take over my system as they have a 'higher' level product.

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Yes, it would be wonderful if they could invent a version of Teams that allows me to run the app in less than twenty-five minutes and four log-on attempts (I just use the online version now).

 

Or perhaps find a way to send me updates without rendering my computer unusable for half a morning.

Or even, just possibly, sort out why my laptop boots from cold in half a minute and my PC takes ten minutes plus, running the same O/S when the (less than three year old) PC is far more powerful and also has an SSD.

This is most likely not down to Microsoft. We support about 2000 laptops and have a whole bunch of remediation running in endpoint for issues like you are describing. They range from switching off elements of Dell optimiser through to opening ports on firewalls. The end user never sees the impact.

 

I would clarify again I don’t use Windows at home and it’s the last OS I would recommend any home user to run.

Edited April 22 by tegs07

[tegs07]

Just now, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I have to use a physically installed version of Office as it's the only way to keep my Office 365 separate from a client's (I use the somewhat simplified and less versatile online version for this). Otehrwise their Exchange server tries to take over my system as they have a 'higher' level product.

Sounds like they are running physical infrastructure from the dark ages. I haven’t dealt with an on premise exchange server for nearly a decade…

[asingardenof]

Just now, tegs07 said:

I run office 365 on a Chromebook and a Mac?

 

Physically installed software is no longer required.

The functionality isn't quite as good using the web apps though, otherwise I'd agree.

 

The other main reason we keep Windows around is for my 7yo who is learning on computers at school. I'm sure there are Linux distros that are kid-centric but would be too basic for me, and I haven't had the time to go into researching how to set up locked-down child accounts on a regular one. The Microsoft Family Safety stuff is something I'd like to keep as well.

[Stub Mandrel]

11 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Sounds like they are running physical infrastructure from the dark ages. I haven’t dealt with an on premise exchange server for nearly a decade…

 

Exchange is virtualised these days, but it gets itchy about security and that starts a very awkward path.

[Stub Mandrel]

12 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

The functionality isn't quite as good using the web apps though, otherwise I'd agree.

 

100% Outlook is very clunky on the web version compared to the localised one.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

On the computer side of things , if this thread was started in the year 2000 then I would have put Apple first on the list .

This is because when I decided it was time to ' lesrn computers' / catch-up eith everything etc , I decided to go for an Apple IMac in lime green . ( possibly the first iMac ?)

 

I get the box delivered , plus a free printer as part of the package . Plus an idiot proof cd rom showing you how to connect to the Internet . All good ...except it took weeks to get on the Internet ! 😡  Most of my mates were graphic designers and art directors . They were telling me it was my fault ,and I'm not doing it right . It goes on . Then one of my friends visits me and solves  the problem which should never have been . He contacted BT who informed him that Apple had changed their phone no. that connects me to the provider I wished to use . Plus of course that was the first year of osx from os9 which was a big deal at the time .That was another issue which I'll  leave . 
Things got much better with the iPad ,it has to be said . 
 

I still hate them. The latest annoyance being after every endless update , Bluetooth is switched on ! 

 

Unfortunately they can't really be dead to me , as I still use a few Apple products 😮‍💨

Edited April 22 by RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE

[tegs07]

11 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Exchange is virtualised these days, but it gets itchy about security and that starts a very awkward path.

No idea- I would imagine this has something to do with compliance and conditional access policies rather than  exchange but not much to go on.

Personally email and printers are tech I loathe and would put in room 101.

 

The functionality of Teams (or slack or whatever else you like) is infinitely preferable than email and printed copies).

[Stub Mandrel]

19 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

The functionality of Teams (or slack or whatever else you like) is infinitely preferable than email and printed copies).

 

Teams is for online meetings, greatly inferior to Zoom for online meetings.

It took 30 minutes for a consultant to set up a Team meeting last week, in the end had to set up a new one and re-invite everyone.

I once had one with a Local Authority, utter disaster - their security rules meant their meeting had to be teams. After over three hours of increasingly frustrated emails and phone calls, I set up a meeting on Zoom or Google meet in about five minutes, which they could join as it was an 'external' meeting.

Teams is an absolutely useless productivity killer.

[neepheid]

4 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Teams is for online meetings, greatly inferior to Zoom for online meetings.

It took 30 minutes for a consultant to set up a Team meeting last week, in the end had to set up a new one and re-invite everyone.

I once had one with a Local Authority, utter disaster - their security rules meant their meeting had to be teams. After over three hours of increasingly frustrated emails and phone calls, I set up a meeting on Zoom or Google meet in about five minutes, which they could join as it was an 'external' meeting.

Teams is an absolutely useless productivity killer.

 

Teams works fine for me, internal and external meetings.  Just sayin, for balance.

[tegs07]

26 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Teams is for online meetings, greatly inferior to Zoom for online meetings.

It took 30 minutes for a consultant to set up a Team meeting last week, in the end had to set up a new one and re-invite everyone.

I once had one with a Local Authority, utter disaster - their security rules meant their meeting had to be teams. After over three hours of increasingly frustrated emails and phone calls, I set up a meeting on Zoom or Google meet in about five minutes, which they could join as it was an 'external' meeting.

Teams is an absolutely useless productivity killer.

What you are experiencing is the difference between software run in a corporate environment and bound by the policies and security settings of that environment versus software that is not tied down by any restrictions.

If I set up Teams for you on a bunch of managed desktops I can guarantee it would work fine, similarly I could hamstring zoom so that any legacy product would have to update to the latest version before running, block access for people who don’t have up dates or no anti virus, i could prevent people from specific countries joining your meeting etc etc.

These are the kind of policies and restrictions that are running in the background and causing issues when you use Teams on a work machine or attempting to join meetings in a managed tenancy.

 

These things are not designed to be awkward, they are designed to stop the kind of embarrassment that the german military experience recently. Your private meetings may not be as private as you imagine.

 

In addition Teams is way more than just for meetings. Teams voice is replacing VOIP and call centre services, it’s a far more user friendly front end to share point, it is replacing shared mailboxes and distribution groups. It is an incredibly powerful tool that when deployed correctly can save companies a lot of time and money.

 

Anyhow I am not a Microsoft evangelist. I run macOS at home, use an iPhone, use Linux for most web applications and it’s the backbone of most the firewall and monitoring software I use. At work we are advocating the use of iPads and Chromebooks for people that don’t need a PC and use Macs for most design work. There are benefits and use cases for most devices and software. 

Edited April 22 by tegs07

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

So, Which companies are dead to you?

[tegs07]

12 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

So, Which companies are dead to you?

Increasing those that don’t provide a human being to speak to and hide behind layers of automation.

 

Most companies have issues and go through rough patches. It’s how they deal with them that counts. Usually there is an explanation and solution. It’s getting to a human that is empowered to help you that is the problem.

 

Since Covid this is getting worse and some companies are now horrendous which is a shame as their products are actually pretty decent (not going to name and shame) but in the tech and services sectors it is getting worse.

 

Edit: Stubsy would be a happy camper if he was using systems set up by my place of work and using our support:) Things would work and if they didn’t we would make them work. 

Edited April 22 by tegs07

[Leonard Smalls]

Talk Talk...

Not the band, but the dreadful telecommunications company.

We were without phone and internet while with them for 6 weeks. I phoned them virtually daily, having hiked to the top of our hill where there was mobile signal and heard nowt but excuses for why it wasn't fixed. Then they cancelled the fault ticket, twice, so I had to start all over again. And the fault turned out to be exactly what I'd told them it was - whoever had laid the cable had done it very shallowly over the corner of a field, and that had been ploughed. The same as it had the year before when our phone line had gone down the first time.

But their general incompetence was unbelievable - we're talking worse than British Gas!

Though SSE, who I'm trying to deal with at the moment are approaching those levels of rubbishness too!

 

[asingardenof]

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

 

Teams works fine for me, internal and external meetings.  Just sayin, for balance.

In general it's the same for me, my only real gripe is that "new" Teams really hates meeting links created in "classic" Teams, to the extent that I've very nearly missed important meetings through being unable to get into them. Other than that it just does what it does.

Edited April 22 by asingardenof
typo