Suspicious buyer alert on Reverb

[Cliff Edge]

Back in the pre internet days when shopping for a second hand car you would trawl through the local private classifieds in the local paper, trying to avoid the dodgy car dealers. I was in London, there were a lot of them. Call the phone number in the ad and enquire about the car for sale. If the reply is “which car’s that mate?“ You put the phone down. 

[chriswareham]

23 hours ago, pete.young said:

I haven't bought anything for a while, but I think Paypal have now introduced another step, which requires the seller to enter a code when the item is collected, thereby nullifying point (3) .

 

eBay has that feature as well for items that are collected, but in my experience most buyers claim they don't have the app on their phone or just don't understand how to use it.

 

Things usually go OK, but I've had someone collect something, say they don't have the eBay app and then claim that the item wasn't received. It resulted in eBay refunding the buyer and me being left without the item.

 

eBay refused to help saying I should have got the buyer to confirm collection, so I reported it to the police as theft, but they took no action.

Edited February 24 by chriswareham

[Downunderwonder]

I think the ratio of psychopaths to regular people must be something terrible over there. Cops too busy to investigate theft by minor league psycho. 

[Obrienp]

24 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

I think the ratio of psychopaths to regular people must be something terrible over there. Cops too busy to investigate theft by minor league psycho. 

That’s about the long and short of it unfortunately.

[bassist_lewis]

On 23/02/2024 at 10:51, ead said:

Hi folks

 

Just a heads-up, I was made an offer for an item on Reverb at full value and the offer asked me to contact the buyer separately via email.  On Reverb the buyer is called Lerry Porrie.  The email address is [email protected] and is signed Kate Wales.  Weird as I don't think the royal family contained any bassists.

 

The email was the usual scam thing:

 

Thanks so much, I will be unable to physically pick up your payment because I work offshore, but after you have received it all, I will send a courier agent to do so. But as I've already said, I have no issue with the advertisement.
I will pay you once you are ready, though, and dispatch my courier agent once you have received your money, as PayPal is the only payment option I have available at the moment. Please remove the advertisement as soon as you can.
Please respond to me with the best time for collection, if you don't mind.

I got a message from this exact user on my last 3 listings within an hour of them going live. The request to complete the transaction off the site is a dead giveaway.

[Downunderwonder]

What's happened to folks getting one over a scammer by getting them to pay for the couriering of box of bricks? I live reading those stories, haven't seen one for years.

[TimR]

I listed an item on Reverb. 

 

Within 3 hours I'd had 3 messages from different people whose friend's 'App wasn't working', asking me to email them on a Gmail email. 

 

I ignored them. 

Edited February 26 by TimR

[Woodinblack]

On 24/02/2024 at 14:27, chriswareham said:

eBay has that feature as well for items that are collected, but in my experience most buyers claim they don't have the app on their phone or just don't understand how to use it.

 

Thats fine, then they don't get the item

[nightraven]

I just got the same message with the same email address, and went through the motions of reporting it to Reverb (including referencing this forum thread). Here's Reverb's response:
 

Quote

 

I understand. Thanks for providing this information.

As per checking, I can see that their account is being monitored and reviewed already by our team.

This is due to their suspicious activities on the platform.

Nothing to worry about since our team is already handling this matter.

Our in-house Trust & Safety team is dedicated to keeping fraudulent buyers and sellers off the site. They use a combination of people and technology to review shops and listings for suspicious activity and create policies that keep our community safe.

In this case, we recommend to deny and reject their offer.

Please remember to always keep your transactions inside the platform to keep you protected.

Here are a few tips to help keep yourself safe: https://help.reverb.com/hc/en-us/articles/12154556865427-Tips-for-using-Reverb-safely

 

Safe to say that this scammer has been working with the same email address for at least a month now, and Reverb doesn't appear to be remotely interested in protecting their customers. 🙄

[MiltyG565]

On 23/02/2024 at 11:18, Obrienp said:

Being a bit thick, I can’t actually understand what the scammer is trying to get you to do. Are they trying to get you to send the gear before you receive payment, or what? 
 

On a related topic; I never understand what people mean by “PayPal scams”. If you get the money in your account, it’s good isn’t it? Or can they withdraw it after it has hit your account?

 

There are many scams, and they take many forms.

 

In this case, it's likely that they ask you to email somebody simply so they have your email address. Then they reply saying "I sent you the money via PayPal", you then get a bogus PayPal email to the effect of "You have been sent £X by X, we are holding it until the buyer receives the goods". You then provide the buyer with the goods, and they vanish into thin air, and when you contact PayPal for your money they don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

If you don't have the money in your hand or in your account, you don't have the money.

 

Who gets caught out by things like this? Old people? Stupid people? No, everyone. I've not seen a scam yet where it hasn't affected otherwise learned and rational people. It's absolutely no reflection on the victim.

[MiltyG565]

39 minutes ago, nightraven said:

I just got the same message with the same email address, and went through the motions of reporting it to Reverb (including referencing this forum thread). Here's Reverb's response:
 

Safe to say that this scammer has been working with the same email address for at least a month now, and Reverb doesn't appear to be remotely interested in protecting their customers. 🙄

 

How can Reverb stop somebody giving you (or anybody) an unconnected email address?

 

The thing is that scammers/fraudsters/con artists are very resilient, and they have learned through trial and error how to use systems in ways that comply with the system rules while at the same time carrying out their scam. If they remove one account from a report of somebody handing out this email address, what's to stop that person setting up another account right away? Therein lies the problem. I don't know what Reverb's policies are, or what they do in the background, but it seems to me like it's pretty difficult to overcome somebody giving somebody else an unconnected email address in a private message.

 

You should report it to the domain as fraud, and you can also report it to Action Fraud on their website. Will either of these make any difference? Who knows, but I guess it's better than nothing.

 

Rest assured though, the scammer will have another email address and another Reverb account within an hour.

[SumOne]

On 23/02/2024 at 12:48, walshy said:

How it works, lots on internet

 

1.  Buyer pays by PayPal and arranges for courier/friend/whatever to collect.  
2.  Item is collected.
3.  Buyer contacts PayPal to open a dispute, claiming they never received the item.  

4.  PayPal sides with the buyer, as the only proof of receipt they will accept is tracked proof of delivery.
5.  The scammer now has your item and his money refunded.

 

What's to stop someone meeting you in person, paying via PayPal (or Bank transfer) then still doing steps 3-5?

[Woodinblack]

1 minute ago, SumOne said:

 

What's to stop someone meeting you in person, paying via PayPal (or Bank transfer) then still doing steps 3-5?

 

Paypal has a qr code that you scan if you pick up in person, proving your received it. And for a bank transfer, then it doesn't matter what they say, you have the money and they can't do anything about it (or paypal friends and family - same thing)

[Obrienp]

2 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

What's to stop someone meeting you in person, paying via PayPal (or Bank transfer) then still doing steps 3-5?

It seems like nothing. I guess you could get them to sign a receipt or get the handover witnessed but whether PayPal would accept that as proof…….?

[Obrienp]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Paypal has a qr code that you scan if you pick up in person, proving your received it. And for a bank transfer, then it doesn't matter what they say, you have the money and they can't do anything about it (or paypal friends and family - same thing)

Interesting; so just refuse to handover until they scan the QR.

[SumOne]

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Paypal has a qr code that you scan if you pick up in person, proving your received it. And for a bank transfer, then it doesn't matter what they say, you have the money and they can't do anything about it (or paypal friends and family - same thing)

Cheers, I didn't know about the QR thing. 

[MiltyG565]

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Paypal has a qr code that you scan if you pick up in person, proving your received it. And for a bank transfer, then it doesn't matter what they say, you have the money and they can't do anything about it (or paypal friends and family - same thing)

 

They could claim it was fraud to their bank, who sends a report to the receiving bank. Given the number of genuine cases of fraud that do not result in money being successfully recovered though, I doubt that a false report would fare better. Having said that, your bank will need to discuss it with you before debiting your account in any case. In most cases, by the time the bank looks, the money is already gone, though.

 

Do what couriers do now and just take a pic of the person with whatever you are selling them. Should cover you if they do make any nonsense claims later.

[nilorius]

PayPal.....Uffffff!!!!!!

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, SumOne said:

Cheers, I didn't know about the QR thing. 

 

https://www.paypal.com/uk/digital-wallet/ways-to-pay/pay-with-qr-code

 

1 hour ago, MiltyG565 said:

They could claim it was fraud to their bank, who sends a report to the receiving bank. Given the number of genuine cases of fraud that do not result in money being successfully recovered though, I doubt that a false report would fare better. Having said that, your bank will need to discuss it with you before debiting your account in any case. In most cases, by the time the bank looks, the money is already gone, though.

 

You would have difficulty doing that as by using paypals systems you have said that they are the ones to deal with disputes, so if you did try you certainly wouldn't be using paypal again. 

[MiltyG565]

21 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

You would have difficulty doing that as by using paypals systems you have said that they are the ones to deal with disputes, so if you did try you certainly wouldn't be using paypal again. 

 

I was referring to bank transfers, but this is also absolutely not true. Of all the PayPal disputes I've seen, not a single customer has reported that they can no longer use PayPal as a result of disputing the matter with a third party, and, in fact, I've disputed transactions myself with my credit card company; PayPal simply said they won't open a dispute themselves if somebody else is looking into it. PayPal Ts&Cs do not supersede Ts&Cs, regulations, or laws elsewhere.

 

If it's in their terms of service, I suppose they aren't enforcing it.

[nightraven]

10 hours ago, MiltyG565 said:

 

How can Reverb stop somebody giving you (or anybody) an unconnected email address?

 

The thing is that scammers/fraudsters/con artists are very resilient, and they have learned through trial and error how to use systems in ways that comply with the system rules while at the same time carrying out their scam. If they remove one account from a report of somebody handing out this email address, what's to stop that person setting up another account right away? Therein lies the problem. I don't know what Reverb's policies are, or what they do in the background, but it seems to me like it's pretty difficult to overcome somebody giving somebody else an unconnected email address in a private message.

 

You should report it to the domain as fraud, and you can also report it to Action Fraud on their website. Will either of these make any difference? Who knows, but I guess it's better than nothing.

 

Rest assured though, the scammer will have another email address and another Reverb account within an hour.

It's an absolute bare minimum effort on the part of Reverb (and its enormous tech-bro parent company) to just IP ban the scammer, and to set a flag that alerts Reverb's so-called 'Trust & Safety' team when that particular email address shows up in a private message (not unlike how eBay flags private messages that it automatically suspects are between people arranging a private sale). Of course it's near enough impossible to quash scammers altogether, but I would have expected Reverb to at the very least try to make it inconvenient for scammers to operate on that platform. Not a big ask of the 'Trust & Safety' team of a company worth hundreds of millions of dollars 🤔

[tauzero]

7 hours ago, nightraven said:

It's an absolute bare minimum effort on the part of Reverb (and its enormous tech-bro parent company) to just IP ban the scammer, and to set a flag that alerts Reverb's so-called 'Trust & Safety' team when that particular email address shows up in a private message (not unlike how eBay flags private messages that it automatically suspects are between people arranging a private sale). Of course it's near enough impossible to quash scammers altogether, but I would have expected Reverb to at the very least try to make it inconvenient for scammers to operate on that platform. Not a big ask of the 'Trust & Safety' team of a company worth hundreds of millions of dollars 🤔

 

IP banning a non-fixed IP address or a VPN would be wildly inappropriate.

[nightraven]

34 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

IP banning a non-fixed IP address or a VPN would be wildly inappropriate.

Are we really making excuses on behalf of a bajillion dollar company when they neglect the basic duty of care over their customers? 🤨 

[neepheid]

4 minutes ago, nightraven said:

Are we really making excuses on behalf of a bajillion dollar company when they neglect the basic duty of care over their customers? 🤨 

 

No, it's a practicality from an IT angle.  Not only is that just a game of whack-a-mole, because many Internet connections are on dynamic IPs, how do you know you got them anyway, or end up banning some completely innocent person?

Edited March 19 by neepheid

[tauzero]

27 minutes ago, nightraven said:

Are we really making excuses on behalf of a bajillion dollar company when they neglect the basic duty of care over their customers? 🤨 

 

Don't you understand the issue? If you ban an IP address then anyone using that address is blocked. Non-fixed IP addresses are allocated as and when, so a totally innocent person could be IP banned. Same for VPNs, and company IP addresses - ban the VPN or the company IP address and that's a lot of innocent people banned. So it's a stupid idea.