Richard Jinman Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 I’m starting to look to upgrade my DB and despite doing some research online I’m still intrigued/confused by the prices attached to used basses. I realise of course that anything is ‘worth’ what someone will pay for it and I also know I need to play a bass before buying. But with that set aside I find it odd to see (for example) two German basses both made circa 1880 priced at £3200 and £7500 respectively. In other cases the ad will say ‘maker unknown, but possibly….’ And the price will still be well over £5k. Perhaps some people are getting insurance valuations and using them as sale prices… but it feels like the Wild West compared to the electric bass market where price parameters are fairly consistent. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeEvans Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 I guess the things I would look at would be: Quality of materials Design - shape, size etc Detailing of craftsmanship and construction Condition Accessories - strings, case, any bits and bobs that come with it Terms of sale - warranty, offer of trial period etc And of course feeling under the hands and sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeEvans Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Or to short cut all of the above, pick it up, pluck an open A, rate the magic from 0 to 10 and value accordingly... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jinman Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, JoeEvans said: Or to short cut all of the above, pick it up, pluck an open A, rate the magic from 0 to 10 and value accordingly... I think this is a great idea, but I guess my point about pricing is really a question about resale value. If I drop £5k on a secondhand bass (not an inconsequential amount of money for me) it would be good to know I’ve paid a competitive price for it. If you buy a 70s precision you’re pretty confident it’s worth circa £2k - £3k for eg. But DBs (magical A strings notwithstanding) seem to be a free fire zone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Advice above is good. My tuppence…… Either buy from a respected dealer, or take the bass on approval and have it checked/valued, or buy from a long standing member here. Or as I have done, if you really like the bass, buy for it’s value to you as an instrument and hope you never have to recoup your investment 🤔 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Last point, do NOT buy from anyone who also sells antiques, an old instrument is not always a good instrument and can cost you a small fortune to make playable 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeEvans Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 33 minutes ago, Richard Jinman said: I think this is a great idea, but I guess my point about pricing is really a question about resale value. If I drop £5k on a secondhand bass (not an inconsequential amount of money for me) it would be good to know I’ve paid a competitive price for it. If you buy a 70s precision you’re pretty confident it’s worth circa £2k - £3k for eg. But DBs (magical A strings notwithstanding) seem to be a free fire zone. I guess what I mean is more that in my limited experience, basses tend to get priced reasonably accurately according to the level of magic - how easily they speak, how rich the tone is. I suppose that's because you don't really get basses with amazing tone and sensitivity that are made of low quality materials by a poor luthier - to get a bass that's amazing to play requires all the other ingredients of high value to be in place. So the magic is a pretty reliable indicator of the quality of a bass as measured in more tangible ways. In more practical terms, if you spend £5k on an older bass and it's got a nicely flamed maple neck, ribs and back; swell back; ebony fingerboard in good condition; closely-spaced, straight grain on the front; no gaps, cracks or rattles; no slumping or distortion of the front; the right action high up the neck for your style of playing; AND it sounds and feels lively and delicious when played side by side with a good selection of other basses at similar prices, then you're not being ripped off. [I know there are loads of amazing basses that don't have all those features but for confidence in valuation they are helpful] I would strongly recommend a visit to the Double Bass Room to play a whole load of basses one after another and get a feel for the differences. If you work your way around 15-20 instruments you can get a real feel for what you're paying for, and what you have to pay for what you want. His prices are reasonable too although you might need to do some set-up work if you bought one there. When I bought my bass there he just brought me the odd cup of tea and let me get on with it for a couple of hours, and it was an invaluable learning experience. Many years ago when I was just playing bass guitar I wondered about buying a double bass, and went into a shop to try a few. The first one I tried was about £10k. I twanged a note, the whole thing resonated sweetly in my arms, the room seemed to fill with rich, beautiful possibilities, the sun came out and the angels sang. Then I tried a £1k one, which was what I could actually afford, and it went 'thunk', and I walked out of the shop and went back to playing electric for a decade or two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 If you're looking to spend £5k on a bass then it's definitely worth your time going to the Double Bass Room or Thwaites or anywhere with a selection of basses in that price range and play as many as you can get your hands on. That's the only way you'll get a concept of the difference between a £3k and a £5k and an £8k bass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 I'm not sure about the correlation between insurance valuations and realistic sale prices. My bass came with a valuation written in the late 90s for £2750, and I feel that even ignoring inflation and that it's had a good new fingerboard fitted since, that would be an ambitious price if I were to try and sell it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jinman Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 8 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said: I'm not sure about the correlation between insurance valuations and realistic sale prices. My bass came with a valuation written in the late 90s for £2750, and I feel that even ignoring inflation and that it's had a good new fingerboard fitted since, that would be an ambitious price if I were to try and sell it. Yes, I agree… I think there’s usually an enormous gap between insurance valuations and realistic selling prices. Selling a secondhand DB isn’t easy in my experience. It’s a small market and people are unlikely to buy without trying the bass first… all adds up to sluggish sales. Unless it’s a red hot bargain of course. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 10 minutes ago, Richard Jinman said: Yes, I agree… I think there’s usually an enormous gap between insurance valuations and realistic selling prices. Selling a secondhand DB isn’t easy in my experience. It’s a small market and people are unlikely to buy without trying the bass first… all adds up to sluggish sales. Unless it’s a red hot bargain of course. The insurance valuation of mine makes some sense as a figure I could dependably source a functional replacement for - it's a good sounding old flatback depreciated somewhat by having had a rough life, some bad-old-days repairs and a remarkably bad over-varnish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 For second hand basses .....it's the wild west out there. There are no rules. Dealers charge what they can get away with. But all prices are negotiable and knowledgeable buyers keep things in check. You try lots, you decide which ones you like and if you're willing to pay the price you can get it for. It's more like buying a house than an electric bass. Unfashionable things (Eflat necks, long scale) / cheaper construction ( flat back, blockless ) / not being pretty ...all bring the price down without affecting the sound. Anything with a "name" does the opposite ..but I guess known builder basses are out your price range anyway ( out of mine!). Rattles and buzzes or distorted fronts are NOT worth saving money on as they cost a fortune to fix. The insurance value is usually the most that a similar one has sold for...ever, plus a bit; so based on the most you'd have to pay for a replacement if it was written off or stolen. Not so far from what you would have to pay a dealer but a lot more than you could sell it for yourself. Dealer mark ups are generally 20% or so. But they will almost always find "work" that needs doing before they can put it in their showroom, "work" being expensive. My big German bass was insurance valued at £7.5k. I've seen apparently similar basses for much less, but having tried some others at dealers, I'd have to go to £10k-£12k to get one I like more than mine....but have only been offered around £5k in px and told it would sell "if brought up to scratch" for £6.5k. Go figure. 12 hours ago, JoeEvans said: guess what I mean is more that in my limited experience, basses tend to get priced reasonably accurately according to the level of magic Excellent post 👍...like the man says, go out and try lots 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloopdad1 Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 From your original post you mentioned that you'd seen similar German basses from the 1880's with dramatically differing prices... It's all about the sound, feel and projection. They're priced differently because they sound / play differently. Firstly (and most importantly) It's all about the sound and playability. Secondary the condition. Third, it's about the pedigree / provenance (resale value) Fourth, the construction / woods. Fith, can you convince the missus you're buying another bass....? A '70's P bass - you kinda know what you're getting as it's a factory made instrument... Luthier made instruments differ massively from one to the other. I know of a 250yr old Italian Ceruti bass that was sold recently for $250,000 in NY, it did the rounds in the UK in the '80's and' 90's before it went across the pond, I played it once (as did loads of others when they were trying to sell it) - It just didn't make a sound - a complete dog! I've played plywood instruments that sounded much better! But because it's a Ceruti, people (well, Americans, ha, ha) forked out for it. As advised, try as many basses as you can. You'll soon discover what price mark you need to be looking at. Also, only go to trusted dealers or better still, talk to players in your local pro orchestra. Many will know of a decent bass for sale. One tip - steer clear of a pristine condition old bass. It obviously hasn't been played as often, they just don't seem work so players park them up and avoid them (like the Ceruti mentioned above) - better to go for a battered, scratched, chipped one.... It's been played every week all of its life for the last +100yrs because it just works - "it's a good 'un". Good luck hunting for your instrument. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 11 minutes ago, Bloopdad1 said: better to go for a battered, scratched, chipped one... Excellent. My bass is evidently worth a fortune 😁. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jinman Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 20 hours ago, Bloopdad1 said: From your original post you mentioned that you'd seen similar German basses from the 1880's with dramatically differing prices... It's all about the sound, feel and projection. They're priced differently because they sound / play differently. Firstly (and most importantly) It's all about the sound and playability. Secondary the condition. Third, it's about the pedigree / provenance (resale value) Fourth, the construction / woods. Fith, can you convince the missus you're buying another bass....? A '70's P bass - you kinda know what you're getting as it's a factory made instrument... Luthier made instruments differ massively from one to the other. I know of a 250yr old Italian Ceruti bass that was sold recently for $250,000 in NY, it did the rounds in the UK in the '80's and' 90's before it went across the pond, I played it once (as did loads of others when they were trying to sell it) - It just didn't make a sound - a complete dog! I've played plywood instruments that sounded much better! But because it's a Ceruti, people (well, Americans, ha, ha) forked out for it. As advised, try as many basses as you can. You'll soon discover what price mark you need to be looking at. Also, only go to trusted dealers or better still, talk to players in your local pro orchestra. Many will know of a decent bass for sale. One tip - steer clear of a pristine condition old bass. It obviously hasn't been played as often, they just don't seem work so players park them up and avoid them (like the Ceruti mentioned above) - better to go for a battered, scratched, chipped one.... It's been played every week all of its life for the last +100yrs because it just works - "it's a good 'un". Good luck hunting for your instrument. Thanks for the detailed reoly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 I benefitted from the advice of an expert when I bought my bass. It’s worth bringing someone with you that can play for several reasons… You can both play the bass and hear it being played (projection, sound quality etc). They’re likely to spot things you won’t about the construction and playability. You won’t be lonely on the journey. Perhaps someone here might be able to help you? I would if I could play and had any idea what I’m doing (which I don’t). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jinman Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 10 hours ago, Burns-bass said: I benefitted from the advice of an expert when I bought my bass. It’s worth bringing someone with you that can play for several reasons… You can both play the bass and hear it being played (projection, sound quality etc). They’re likely to spot things you won’t about the construction and playability. You won’t be lonely on the journey. Perhaps someone here might be able to help you? I would if I could play and had any idea what I’m doing (which I don’t). Good tip… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 34 minutes ago, Richard Jinman said: Good tip… It’s also common to take classical instruments on approval. I didn’t know this when I bought my Bryant bass and turned up with a bag full of money which he refused to take. He gave me the bass and rang me a few days later with his bank details. You may know this of course, but it removes a lot of tension when buying from a dealer I guess knowing you can bring it back if it doesn’t work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickA Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 I had one on loan from Turners for weeks. I had to pay them £40 for insurance and they kept my own bass for "evaluation" and as security. They were in no rush for me to return it. I got to play it at home and take it to orchestra a few times ... well worth £40. Didn't buy it, the price differential was still too much for the difference in quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jinman Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 Just now, NickA said: I had one on loan from Turners for weeks. I had to pay them £40 for insurance and they kept my own bass for "evaluation" and as security. They were in no rush for me to return it. I got to play it at home and take it to orchestra a few times ... well worth £40. Didn't buy it, the price differential was still too much for the difference in quality. … and that last point is worth it’s own thread. Like hi fi and wine the 5 per cent improvement in sound seems to require an 80 per cent increase in expenditure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 57 minutes ago, Richard Jinman said: … and that last point is worth it’s own thread. Like hi fi and wine the 5 per cent improvement in sound seems to require an 80 per cent increase in expenditure And of course the perceived improvement lasts about five minutes. After that, it's your bass and it sounds like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 3 hours ago, Burns-bass said: It’s also common to take classical instruments on approval. I didn’t know this when I bought my Bryant bass and turned up with a bag full of money which he refused to take. He gave me the bass and rang me a few days later with his bank details. You may know this of course, but it removes a lot of tension when buying from a dealer I guess knowing you can bring it back if it doesn’t work for you. Dear Paul did the same with me. Going out his front door it was a case of ‘Don’t you want my address?’ ‘Oh I suppose so’. Lovely bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 When I went bass shopping many decades ago I was astonished at the price differentials. They made absolutely no sense to me. It is such an incredibly niche market. There seemed to be no parameters which could be measured. I eventually had a new 5 string neck put on a bass I owned. I know that given the historical mishmash it is, it would not be considered "the real thing". And yet, I want for no other. I have not had a hint of DB GAS since I took delivery of it (apart from new machine heads!). And in the intervening years my front door has been spinning with the plank purchasing and selling. I am a bass guitar tart and will go with any of them. If you like it, then that is it. If it is cheaper than 80% of the rest of the shop, well happy days. This is before we even reach the value of a decent setup and a set of strings which complement the instrument - which are not necessarily what the bass will be wearing. And let us not even START about the price of bows. This has been a stream of consciousness posting. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jinman Posted March 9 Author Share Posted March 9 (edited) Good point about GAS (classical gas?). I too used to trade bass guitars on a whim, but in the DB world you’re forced to commit. Once you’ve got a bow, a quiver and a stand (optional) you’re pretty much out of options in the accessory market. And the strings last 10 years and take 10 hours to attach so that’s not a GAS option. No, it’s only when you decide to amplify the damn thing and type ‘what’s the best pick up for double bass’ into Google that your troubles start. Edited March 9 by Richard Jinman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 9 hours ago, Owen said: When I went bass shopping many decades ago I was astonished at the price differentials. They made absolutely no sense to me. It is such an incredibly niche market. There seemed to be no parameters which could be measured. I eventually had a new 5 string neck put on a bass I owned. I know that given the historical mishmash it is, it would not be considered "the real thing". And yet, I want for no other. I have not had a hint of DB GAS since I took delivery of it (apart from new machine heads!). And in the intervening years my front door has been spinning with the plank purchasing and selling. I am a bass guitar tart and will go with any of them. If you like it, then that is it. If it is cheaper than 80% of the rest of the shop, well happy days. This is before we even reach the value of a decent setup and a set of strings which complement the instrument - which are not necessarily what the bass will be wearing. And let us not even START about the price of bows. This has been a stream of consciousness posting. I understand the point you’re making. Theres also the adaptation you have to do to every instrument. It takes a long time to get the sound you want from the bass I found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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