Modellers/multi effects: Rethinking everything

[TRBboy]

6 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

And as I have said many times before, selling my old (big and heavy) bass and guitar rigs paid for me to buy a Helix Floor and RCF745 FRFR cab new and come away with a slight profit. And on hindsight I could have got away with a lesser (cheaper) FRFR as it only gets used for rehearsals with one band and the occasional smaller gigs where the quality of the foldback is unknown.

I envy you guys who can go ampless! Unfortunately it's not an option due to the venues we play. There's no appetite for dropping loads of money on investing in a bigger PA system, as our guitarists have no desire to ditch their valve amps, so it's a non starter. Would mean I didn't need backline for the odd festival we do though!

[BigRedX]

23 minutes ago, TRBboy said:

I envy you guys who can go ampless! Unfortunately it's not an option due to the venues we play. There's no appetite for dropping loads of money on investing in a bigger PA system, as our guitarists have no desire to ditch their valve amps, so it's a non starter. Would mean I didn't need backline for the odd festival we do though!

 

One of the (for me many) advantages of playing in an originals band. No investment in, or need to carry and set up PA and lights. They are ready-installed in the venue along with people to run them. The band that I play with that doesn't use any backline has 8 items of equipment (and two of them are stands) which are an easy carry between car and venue for the 3 bands members and our occasional roadie/merch seller.

[TRBboy]

50 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

One of the (for me many) advantages of playing in an originals band. No investment in, or need to carry and set up PA and lights. They are ready-installed in the venue along with people to run them. The band that I play with that doesn't use any backline has 8 items of equipment (and two of them are stands) which are an easy carry between car and venue for the 3 bands members and our occasional roadie/merch seller.

Sounds like heaven BRX! Even if I could go ampless, I still have to help haul 100w valve heads, 4x12" cab, drums, PA System etc. 😅

[Greg Edwards69]

2 hours ago, TRBboy said:

I envy you guys who can go ampless! Unfortunately it's not an option due to the venues we play. There's no appetite for dropping loads of money on investing in a bigger PA system, as our guitarists have no desire to ditch their valve amps, so it's a non starter. Would mean I didn't need backline for the odd festival we do though!

You might be surprised at what a good frfr speaker can do as backline. GRBass are now making active cabs all the way from a 1x10 up to a 2x12 and 4x10. Or just a single Barefaced Big Baby with an appropriate head could possibly perform just as well as your rumble combo and extension cab.

 

For me, I've only ever used single-speaker combos as backline. My humble Headrush FRFR-112 "feels" remarkably similar to the markbass head and 1x12 cab I used to use. It certainly more than matches it for volume and frequency response.

 

But like @BigRedX, I only use mine for rehearsal, or if I really, really need backline on stage. Otherwise, I'm direct to PA with IEMs in my band, or we ask for decent foldback if PA is provided. And similar again, I'm looking to downsize my frfr speaker to a Yamaha DXR10. Both my guitarists use one each and our PA tops are DXR12 speakers. They are more accurate than my headrush, and it would make sense for me to have something that I can tweak my patches that sounds similar to the PA.

Edited March 5 by Greg Edwards69

[TRBboy]

27 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

You might be surprised at what a good frfr speaker can do as backline. GRBass are now making active cabs all the way from a 1x10 up to a 2x12 and 4x10. Or just a single Barefaced Big Baby with an appropriate head could possibly perform just as well as your rumble combo and extension cab.

 

For me, I've only ever used single-speaker combos as backline. My humble Headrush FRFR-112 "feels" remarkably similar to the markbass head and 1x12 cab I used to use. It certainly more than matches it for volume and frequency response.

 

But like @BigRedX, I only use mine for rehearsal, or if I really, really need backline on stage. Otherwise, I'm direct to PA with IEMs in my band, or we ask for decent foldback if PA is provided. And similar again, I'm looking to downsize my frfr speaker to a Yamaha DXR10. Both my guitarists use one each and our PA tops are DXR12 speakers. They are more accurate than my headrush, and it would make sense for me to have something that I can tweak my patches that sounds similar to the PA.

I take your point, but we're entirely reliant on backline, as our PA is only used for vocals. We run a pair of Yamaha 15" speakers. We do have subs, but rarely drag them out, unless they're really needed.

 

Like I said, the guitarists don't want to ditch or downsize amps, so there's no desire to upgrade the PA.

 

My current rig is a Markbass Stu Amp 1000w and a GR Bass 4x10", 1200w 4ohm, which I love. 😊

[pineweasel]

6 hours ago, TRBboy said:

Another consideration then; what does everyone think about the HX One?

It's no good if you need more than one effect at once. But if, like me, you use effects sparingly, and only one per song, it can work well. It's replaced a board with octaver, envelope, distortion, phaser and chorus, and it fits in my gig bag.

[BigRedX]

3 hours ago, TRBboy said:

I take your point, but we're entirely reliant on backline, as our PA is only used for vocals. We run a pair of Yamaha 15" speakers. We do have subs, but rarely drag them out, unless they're really needed.

 

Like I said, the guitarists don't want to ditch or downsize amps, so there's no desire to upgrade the PA.

 

My current rig is a Markbass Stu Amp 1000w and a GR Bass 4x10", 1200w 4ohm, which I love. 😊

 

It's a completely different situation if you are running your own PA and it's strictly vocals only. Having said that in the 6 years I have owned it, I've needed to use my RCF745 twice as both backline and to fill the venue with suitably load bass guitar. Both times it coped without a problem and due to its improved dispersion characteristics compared with a typical bass rig I was able to be much quieter on stage - only a little bit louder than I would normally be comfortable with and certainly nothing like the time I had to use my conventional rig as FoH bass where I needed to be so loud I could barely hear the rest of the band on stage.

 

The PA and lighting issue is one of the many reasons why I quit doing covers and have stuck to originals bands. The additional hassle of having to carry, set up and later take down a PA and lighting rig makes the gig less good VfM when you consider how much longer it takes overall.

[Greg Edwards69]

6 hours ago, pineweasel said:

It's no good if you need more than one effect at once. But if, like me, you use effects sparingly, and only one per song, it can work well. It's replaced a board with octaver, envelope, distortion, phaser and chorus, and it fits in my gig bag.

And now we have the new Pod Express that can do four effects at once and amp/cab modelling. Line 6 have answered a lot of prayers here.

 

https://line6.com/podexpress/bass-effects

[TRBboy]

2 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

And now we have the new Pod Express that can do four effects at once and amp/cab modelling. Line 6 have answered a lot of prayers here.

 

https://line6.com/podexpress/bass-effects

Wow, that actually really appeals to me! I have a lot of questions though, and the website is down 😅.

 

There's 21 presets, but I'm assuming you can save your own too? Can you navigate through them using the foot switches, or do you have to use the knobs? 🤷 I will find out ... 

Edited March 5 by TRBboy

[joel406]

The Quad Cortex has the most dedicated to bass stuff of them all. Darkglass, Mesa, Marshall, Gk. All the effects. Even a pog that I keep in line. The ir's are great. And amp and pedal capture. Not to mention all the stuff online. The Nobel preamp is in there and I so love it. Helix is fine. But the QC has the tone.

[TRBboy]

2 hours ago, joel406 said:

The Quad Cortex has the most dedicated to bass stuff of them all. Darkglass, Mesa, Marshall, Gk. All the effects. Even a pog that I keep in line. The ir's are great. And amp and pedal capture. Not to mention all the stuff online. The Nobel preamp is in there and I so love it. Helix is fine. But the QC has the tone.

It looks/sounds fantastic, but as a pretty light effects user I can't even start to consider spending £1500 on a unit, only to use 3 sounds. Definitely looks like about the best thing on the market at the moment though, if that's what you're looking for.

[BigRedX]

I've just spent about 15 minutes scrolling through the Quad Cortex page and I have to say that as a Helix user I'm not particularly impressed.

 

1. Touch Screen. Guaranteed to go wrong at the worst possible moment. Sometimes I have problems getting my phone or iPad to recognise my fingers; and touch screens at supermarket checkouts? Forget it. Unless all the touch screen functions can be duplicated with the front panel controls this is a non-starter.

 

2. They dedicate far more time and space to amp and cab models than they do to effects. IMO amp and cab models are red herrings. They are things that get in the way of your sound, especially if you are using effects. Ever since I got my first multi-effects unit 35 years ago I have been fighting against the additional colourations produced by my amplification. Now I rarely use any amp or cab models on my Helix. They don't do anything I can't already do with EQ and drive modules. On the few occasions that I have used amp and cab models they tend to be ones that should be aimed at guitarists but happen to produce a sound that I want. As I have said many times before there are no rules when it comes to modelling devices, you can't break anything like you could with the actual amps and cabs. Also remember that many classic bass amps are the same as the guitar amps but with a different badge on and maybe the EQ frequencies slightly tweaked.

 

3. External PSU without a locking connection. For me on stage this is a disaster waiting to happen. For individual pedals on a pedal board it doesn't matter since everything is fixed in place and if you've built it properly nothing can become disconnected. However devices like Quad Cortex and the Helix Floor are the pedal board. I'm thankful every time I set up, that the power for the Helix is supplied by a proper IEC mains connecter on a chunky cable, and which can be easily replaced should it go wrong. Both the guitarists in one of my bands use multi-effects pedal boards with external PSUs and both are on their 3rd PSU since I've been in the band due to the weedy cables becoming irreparably damaged.

[BigRedX]

3 hours ago, TRBboy said:

It looks/sounds fantastic, but as a pretty light effects user I can't even start to consider spending £1500 on a unit, only to use 3 sounds.

 

Before I got the Helix I had a BassPod XT Pro. For the band I was in at the time I used 4 sounds as follows:

 

1. Basic sound

2. As 1 but a bit brighter

3. As 1 but with a bit more drive

4. As 1 but with a bit more drive and brighter

 

I could have got away with using sound #1 for the whole gig, and I did on a few occasions when there was no room for the Floor board due to limited floor space on-stage or the cable connecting it the Pod was playing up.

 

With the Helix now I have a separate Preset for each song often with multiple Snapshots for variations within that song. Each has been tweaked so my volume and EQ balance complements the changing sounds of the other instruments.  Even if I was in a band that required one bass sound for everything, I'd still be using the Helix because I could dial in my one perfect sound.

[joel406]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I've just spent about 15 minutes scrolling through the Quad Cortex page and I have to say that as a Helix user I'm not particularly impressed.

 

1. Touch Screen. Guaranteed to go wrong at the worst possible moment. Sometimes I have problems getting my phone or iPad to recognise my fingers; and touch screens at supermarket checkouts? Forget it. Unless all the touch screen functions can be duplicated with the front panel controls this is a non-starter.

 

2. They dedicate far more time and space to amp and cab models than they do to effects. IMO amp and cab models are red herrings. They are things that get in the way of your sound, especially if you are using effects. Ever since I got my first multi-effects unit 35 years ago I have been fighting against the additional colourations produced by my amplification. Now I rarely use any amp or cab models on my Helix. They don't do anything I can't already do with EQ and drive modules. On the few occasions that I have used amp and cab models they tend to be ones that should be aimed at guitarists but happen to produce a sound that I want. As I have said many times before there are no rules when it comes to modelling devices, you can't break anything like you could with the actual amps and cabs. Also remember that many classic bass amps are the same as the guitar amps but with a different badge on and maybe the EQ frequencies slightly tweaked.

 

3. External PSU without a locking connection. For me on stage this is a disaster waiting to happen. For individual pedals on a pedal board it doesn't matter since everything is fixed in place and if you've built it properly nothing can become disconnected. However devices like Quad Cortex and the Helix Floor are the pedal board. I'm thankful every time I set up, that the power for the Helix is supplied by a proper IEC mains connecter on a chunky cable, and which can be easily replaced should it go wrong. Both the guitarists in one of my bands use multi-effects pedal boards with external PSUs and both are on their 3rd PSU since I've been in the band due to the weedy cables becoming irreparably damaged.

I've had my QC for 2 years now. Run ampless. IEMs. The sound is unmatched. Compared to Helix. Line 6 is done. Touch screen has been flawless as well. Amp modeler is amazing. IR's amazing. Effects are off the chart. External PSU is NOT a problem. My unit is on a pedal board and power can be handled in many ways. But if you have those kinda problems you should probably stay away from pedals entirely.

[tauzero]

On 05/03/2024 at 10:36, BigRedX said:

 

One of the (for me many) advantages of playing in an originals band. No investment in, or need to carry and set up PA and lights. They are ready-installed in the venue along with people to run them. The band that I play with that doesn't use any backline has 8 items of equipment (and two of them are stands) which are an easy carry between car and venue for the 3 bands members and our occasional roadie/merch seller.

 

You keep on coming out with this. I was in an originals band up till about two years ago. Of the dozen or so venues we played, one had PA. So your originals experience doesn't extrapolate to everybody else's.

[BigRedX]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

You keep on coming out with this. I was in an originals band up till about two years ago. Of the dozen or so venues we played, one had PA. So your originals experience doesn't extrapolate to everybody else's.

 

You must be deliberately playing some strange places. 

 

For the past 30 years I have played 100s of venues all over the UK and the only times (less than 5) there was no in-house PA and lights was when we deliberately chose to play somewhere that didn't normally put on live music, and in these cases we knew in advance and hired in PA and lights along with a crew to load, set them up and work them and that was factored in to the economics of doing the gig.

[tauzero]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

You must be deliberately playing some strange places. 

 

For the past 30 years I have played 100s of venues all over the UK and the only times (less than 5) there was no in-house PA and lights was when we deliberately chose to play somewhere that didn't normally put on live music, and in these cases we knew in advance and hired in PA and lights along with a crew to load, set them up and work them and that was factored in to the economics of doing the gig.

 

We were playing originals songs in pubs. It does happen, you know, whatever you on your lofty cloud may think.

[NancyJohnson]

I've seen guys with huge floor boards covered in stomps who gradually just stopped using everything.

 

Over the years I've gone through a POD or two, a brace of Tech21 kit and one of those TC Electronic Tone Print amps (great concept, not enough patches, so off it went).  Always used a poweramp or into the effects return on heads.  

[TRBboy]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

We were playing originals songs in pubs. It does happen, you know, whatever you on your lofty cloud may think.

I've done it both ways, I've been in an originals band playing gigs all over the country where there was proper sound, Ava I've been in ones where we were playing closer to home where we almost always had to haul our own system. I don't think there is a one size fits all really, especially with original material.

[BigRedX]

19 hours ago, tauzero said:

We were playing originals songs in pubs. It does happen, you know, whatever you on your lofty cloud may think.

 

So what counts as a "pub" gig?

 

Here in Nottingham originals bands play at The Jam Café, The Chameleon, The Angel Microbrewery, The Golden Fleece, Rough Trade. IMO they all count as "pubs". There's also The Old Cold Store which is a venue behind a pub. The Chameleon and The Angel Microbrewery have separate upstairs rooms where the bands play, but you still have to go down to the main part of the pub to get your drinks. All of these venues have in-house PA systems. TBH no-one would play at the Chameleon if they had to bring their own PA system as it's almost impossible to park nearby even for loading, and then down a narrow alleyway and up two flights of steep stairs. The venue makes up for it by having the most ridiculously large 80s style rig that goes all the way up to the ceiling and the venue capacity could probably be increased by 25% if it was replaced with something more modern.

 

I'm sure that if I looked hard enough I could find pubs here that were prepared to put on an originals band and would require the band to bring their own PA system. But why bother when there's plenty of places to play that don't require that extra effort? 

[skidder652003]

Just get a zoom B1 four used for £40 quid. Try it and if no likey, flog it on for the same here.

[TRBboy]

45 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

Just get a zoom B1 four used for £40 quid. Try it and if no likey, flog it on for the same here.

Just received one yesterday from Sam, hoping to get stuck into it later 😊👍

 

I think the Darkglass drive is going to be perfect to me. I'm hoping I'll be able to ditch my B3, ODB3 and Bass DI+ off my board

[skidder652003]

1 hour ago, TRBboy said:

Just received one yesterday from Sam, hoping to get stuck into it later 😊👍

 

I think the Darkglass drive is going to be perfect to me. I'm hoping I'll be able to ditch my B3, ODB3 and Bass DI+ off my board

I've become quite the fanboi of all things zoom (apart from their video recorders), the B1 Four is a great bit of kit for virtually pennies.

[rushbo]

20 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

I've become quite the fanboi of all things zoom (apart from their video recorders), the B1 Four is a great bit of kit for virtually pennies.

I'm a big fan of Zoom stuff, too. I've had a few multi-FX devices as well as a portable recorder (H1) and the fantastic Zoom R16. I've never been less than impressed.

 

My FX needs are pretty minimal, so my old school B3 is perfect for me- especially as I modded it to use with an external patch changer pedal. I had a Zoom B1 Four and it sounded great, but for live work, where I have to switch between patches, I prefer the B3.

[TRBboy]

1 hour ago, rushbo said:

I'm a big fan of Zoom stuff, too. I've had a few multi-FX devices as well as a portable recorder (H1) and the fantastic Zoom R16. I've never been less than impressed.

 

My FX needs are pretty minimal, so my old school B3 is perfect for me- especially as I modded it to use with an external patch changer pedal. I had a Zoom B1 Four and it sounded great, but for live work, where I have to switch between patches, I prefer the B3.

I do like my B3, I've had it for ages, but it's a bit big, and I really want some of the newer Zoom sounds, so I'm really looking forward to trying the B1 Four