LFSys Monaco.....a review

[BassAdder60]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Ok full marks to Ampeg for giving good and accurate information on their cabs. I love that they say that sensitivity of 96db/W and 300W gives you 121db of SPL because that is exactly right. Barefaced for example claim 127db for their Big Baby with 95.5db/W sensitivity (according to Eminence who make the drive unit) and 450W handling which works out at 122db give or take a decimal point. So I know exactly how loud in practice 121db is because the two Bass Chat 12" designs @stevie and I designed were 121db speakers, again given a decimal point. I gigged the MK1 for at least two years and only needed the extra cab for outdoor gigs. 121db is about the same level as a drummer. With your amp and the Monaco you will have 98db/W and 600W and that adds up to 125db. To give you another comparison wit the same Eich amp you'll get 127db if you use both your Ampegs.

 

Figures in db are sometimes hard to understand. 1db is the smallest change that you'll notice. You'd bareley notice the difference between the Barefaced and one of your Ampegs or between the LFSys and the pair of your Ampegs. It's there but not very significant. 3 decibels are really the equivalent of turning up a notch, not a huge difference but noticeable by an audience member. A bit like going from 10 to 11 if you like. There's one proviso; the smoother a cabs frequency response the less 'shouty' it will be. The Monaco is the smoothest cab of the lot and maybe the smoothest bass cab available at the moment, some people like shouty and it is a good way of getting heard. Mark Bass make a lot of shouty cabs but I've no idea if the Ampeg is shouty.

 

Hope that helps. the short answer is that I do think one Monaco= 2x112 Ampegs unless you are thrashing the hell out of a pair already

 

 

Thank you Phil ! 
I was very close to changing my mind on the Monaco but nope I’m going for it. 
It’s possible I will order a second Monaco to stack and give me 4ohms in the future but for now I will hit one cab a go.

The Ampegs I run stacked and never push them even though we are a reasonably loud band for pubs and I don’t use PA support 

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

THose Max SPL figures look a little high.

Hi John, 300W is +24db to the nearest whole no. So 300W through a 96db/W speaker is 96+24=120db. I've allowed them the extra 1db because I did the calculation in my head  to only two places and there might well be some rounding up. For the 2x12 they've simply added 6db I suspect. Adding 6db is not unreasonable. Eminence do plenty of 12's that produce 96db/W so that checks out as being fair at least. Interestingly they only rate the 2x12 as 99db/W. Most manufacturers rate or measure at 2.83V which is 2W into 4 ohms as you know and most rate a 4ohm as 102db which is just a little naughty.

 

If you remember the calculated output of the BC mk1 was between 121 and 122W depending upon which frequency you chose to examine so I don't think there is anything glaringly wrong with what Ampeg are saying. I took the figures for the LFSys cab off their website but again I know they correspond with those on Faital's data sheets.

 

I didn't now I had to show my working 😂😂

Edited June 6 by Phil Starr

[agedhorse]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi John, 300W is +24db to the nearest whole no. So 300W through a 96db/W speaker is 96+24=120db. I've allowed them the extra 1db because I did the calculation in my head  to only two places and there might well be some rounding up. For the 2x12 they've simply added 6db I suspect. Adding 6db is not unreasonable. Eminence do plenty of 12's that produce 96db/W so that checks out as being fair at least. Interestingly they only rate the 2x12 as 99db/W. Most manufacturers rate or measure at 2.83V which is 2W into 4 ohms as you know and most rate a 4ohm as 102db which is just a little naughty.

 

If you remember the calculated output of the BC mk1 was between 121 and 122W depending upon which frequency you chose to examine so I don't think there is anything glaringly wrong with what Ampeg are saying. I took the figures for the LFSys cab off their website but again I know they correspond with those on Faital's data sheets.

 

I didn't now I had to show my working 😂😂

 

Actually, most manufacturers use 1W/1M for their sensitivity metrics, not 2.83V. This gives more easily comparable sensitivity figures, especially when a manufacturer offers the same cabinet in 4 and 8 ohm versions.

 

 

With the Ampeg maximum SPL figure, ~3dB of the gain comes from low frequency mutual coupling and ~3dB comes from double the power handling.

 

 

Edited June 6 by agedhorse

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, agedhorse said:

 

Actually, most manufacturers use 1W/1M for their sensitivity metrics, not 2.83V.

That would be nice but thre is a tendency away from that in Europe with advertising claims from reputable firms losing touch with reality. It's the older US manufacturers who tend to be more straightforward in how they spec their poducts. It's not uncommon to see an increase of 6db sensiivity quoted in advertisig over here, so much so that when I saw the correct figure in the Ampeg handbook I thought it worth noting.

[Chienmortbb]

13 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

That would be nice but thre is a tendency away from that in Europe with advertising claims from reputable firms losing touch with reality. It's the older US manufacturers who tend to be more straightforward in how they spec their poducts. It's not uncommon to see an increase of 6db sensiivity quoted in advertisig over here, so much so that when I saw the correct figure in the Ampeg handbook I thought it worth noting.

To be fair, I think this is a crossover from Consumer Electronics, especially  ICE, In Car Entertainment, where every watt was "Marketingized". 

[agedhorse]

On 06/06/2024 at 14:10, Phil Starr said:

That would be nice but thre is a tendency away from that in Europe with advertising claims from reputable firms losing touch with reality. It's the older US manufacturers who tend to be more straightforward in how they spec their poducts. It's not uncommon to see an increase of 6db sensiivity quoted in advertisig over here, so much so that when I saw the correct figure in the Ampeg handbook I thought it worth noting.

I was unaware of this, hadn’t seen it in other products. I will have to explore this more to see who does and doesn’t do this. 

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, agedhorse said:

I was unaware of this, hadn’t seen it in other products. I will have to explore this more to see who does and doesn’t do this. 

I'd rather you didn't. I want them to be more like you

 

Seriously have a look at the SPL levels claimed by some of the reputable PA speaker manufacturers like RCF and Yamaha

[agedhorse]

The Yamaha powered speakers are actually quite good, BUT you are right in your assessment of how power and maximum SPL are derived. I am (mostly) familiar with how these seemingly incredible numbers are derived and as you suggested they are too good to be true in the context of the bigger picture of pro audio (at least the pro audio industry that I grew up designing in).

 

You have to look at the actual specs and it will become more clear:

 

 

The clarity becomes more obvious when you recognize that some years back, Yamaha shifted from their own in-house solutions (which were pretty good but did suffer from some reliability and support issues) to what I consider the gold standard SMPS/class D solution provided by ICEPower. They are using the 700AS2 power module, which at 4 ohms delivers between 800 and 850 watts RMS with only one channel driver (the LF channel) because the HF channel load is virtually zero for all intensive purposes. Since I have run extensive testing on this family of modules and was actually one of the beta evaluators of the module (back when I developed the original Subway D-800 in 2014).

 

The continuous power rating is 850 watts RMS for the LF and 100 watts RMS for the high frequency (limited within the DSP), for ~950 watts RMS system power. Now, taking the peak power of 950 watts rms (Ppeak - 2x Prms) and you have 1900 watts peak, rounded up for "dynamic" marketing speak modifier) and you have 2000 watts "peak dynamic power"

 

For the SPL calculation, they clearly say maximum PEAK SPL, so doing the calculations backwards using peak metrics and IF Yamaha is using peak for SPL as 4x RMS (customary in passive consumer PA speakers) that yields a speaker of 100dB/1W/1M calculated with no power compression assuming it was an unpowered cabinet. 

 

The problem with the above is that we are 3dB too high because program power is a made-up number, peak is really 2x the rms value, the cabinet now must be 103dB/1W/1M PEAK SENSITIVITY for this calculation to work out. I would easily believe 100dB/1W/1M (this really is a pretty good speaker with reasonably premium components) but I wouldn't take 103dB/1W/1M at face value without more investigation. Since we customarily use (in my world) or used to use (the marketing world) RMS metrics for sensitivity and SPL, correcting to RMS metrics yields 100dB/1W/1M average sensitivity which is awfully high but "possible". My better guess would be 98dB/1W/1M real world but I don't have one to test.

 

Therefore the CALCULATED maximum average SPL for this speaker will be somewhere between 133dB/950W/1M (assuming they calculated using the 4x multiplier that the prosumer audio folks tend to favor. My educated hunch is that it's between 130 and 133dB but I don't have all of their spec  footnotes.

 

I do these calculations an awful lot, it's pretty easy to see what's going on when you live it.

 

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, agedhorse said:

The Yamaha powered speakers are actually quite good, BUT you are right in your assessment of how power and maximum SPL are derived. I am (mostly) familiar with how these seemingly incredible numbers are derived and as you suggested they are too good to be true in the context of the bigger picture of pro audio (at least the pro audio industry that I grew up designing in).

 

You have to look at the actual specs and it will become more clear:

 

 

The clarity becomes more obvious when you recognize that some years back, Yamaha shifted from their own in-house solutions (which were pretty good but did suffer from some reliability and support issues) to what I consider the gold standard SMPS/class D solution provided by ICEPower. They are using the 700AS2 power module, which at 4 ohms delivers between 800 and 850 watts RMS with only one channel driver (the LF channel) because the HF channel load is virtually zero for all intensive purposes. Since I have run extensive testing on this family of modules and was actually one of the beta evaluators of the module (back when I developed the original Subway D-800 in 2014).

 

The continuous power rating is 850 watts RMS for the LF and 100 watts RMS for the high frequency (limited within the DSP), for ~950 watts RMS system power. Now, taking the peak power of 950 watts rms (Ppeak - 2x Prms) and you have 1900 watts peak, rounded up for "dynamic" marketing speak modifier) and you have 2000 watts "peak dynamic power"

 

For the SPL calculation, they clearly say maximum PEAK SPL, so doing the calculations backwards using peak metrics and IF Yamaha is using peak for SPL as 4x RMS (customary in passive consumer PA speakers) that yields a speaker of 100dB/1W/1M calculated with no power compression assuming it was an unpowered cabinet. 

 

The problem with the above is that we are 3dB too high because program power is a made-up number, peak is really 2x the rms value, the cabinet now must be 103dB/1W/1M PEAK SENSITIVITY for this calculation to work out. I would easily believe 100dB/1W/1M (this really is a pretty good speaker with reasonably premium components) but I wouldn't take 103dB/1W/1M at face value without more investigation. Since we customarily use (in my world) or used to use (the marketing world) RMS metrics for sensitivity and SPL, correcting to RMS metrics yields 100dB/1W/1M average sensitivity which is awfully high but "possible". My better guess would be 98dB/1W/1M real world but I don't have one to test.

 

Therefore the CALCULATED maximum average SPL for this speaker will be somewhere between 133dB/950W/1M (assuming they calculated using the 4x multiplier that the prosumer audio folks tend to favor. My educated hunch is that it's between 130 and 133dB but I don't have all of their spec  footnotes.

 

I do these calculations an awful lot, it's pretty easy to see what's going on when you live it.

 

Thanks for this, it confirms my own calculations. I don't do it every day and I'm only passingly interested in amps, speakers are more my passion. The idea of a 3" voice coil dissipating more than 500W AES or a 10" speaker being able to handle the excursion to produce 137db across the operating range is absurd.

 

I completely agree with you about Yamaha, I've used a lot of their kit over the years and had a look at these speakers when they first released them. They are really very good at their price point. I didn't know they had gone over to ICEPower but it makes sense as does using the same amp in all the range and throttling back using DSP. I find it hard to totally condemn Yamaha as they are competing in a market where others are making similar claims but they are at the extreme end of over claiming at the moment. Over here RCF are starting to make similar distorted claims though at least 3db down on Yamaha and I noticed recently that Wharfedale have 're-specced' their ranges.

 

It does make me cross though, how on earth is someone who can't do the calculations supposed to make an informed choice. I really blame the lack of a proper regulatory framework and the marketing departments over-ruling the engineers.

[BassAdder60]

Tried the Monaco tonight with the band at rehearsal and with my EICH T900 amp ( new arrival too ) it was as loud and perhaps louder than my two Ampeg SVT112AV cabs. 
It’s a single 8 ohm cab so I’m only getting 600w out of the T900 but I was running with master volume around 11 o clock so plenty of power to go if required. Very tempted to add a second Monaco just to have the ultimate large - small venue rig !  
Monaco was loud, clear and full sounding. 

Edited June 11 by BassAdder60

[MichaelDean]

I might want to give a Monaco a good test with all of the dirt I can throw at it, at the next SWBB if that's alright @stevie... I do wonder if I'll prefer a coloured speaker, but being able to hear myself better has me very intrigued.

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, MichaelDean said:

but being able to hear myself better has me very intrigued.

e aware that everyone else can hear you better, especially when I play a wrong note.

[BassAdder60]

Another very lovely discovery last night was when using the EICH T900 and the Monaco, playing my PBass with a pick I had the best sound I’ve ever had. Great rock tone and put my Ampeg gear to shame. 
First time I thought hell yeah that’s the sound I want !! 

[stevie]

On 12/06/2024 at 11:07, MichaelDean said:

I might want to give a Monaco a good test with all of the dirt I can throw at it, at the next SWBB if that's alright @stevie... I do wonder if I'll prefer a coloured speaker, but being able to hear myself better has me very intrigued.

 

I'm looking forward to the SW Bash already. You'd be very welcome to give the Monaco a good test, @MichaelDean.