Is there a popular bass player, that you just don’t get?

[Stub Mandrel]

On 18/03/2024 at 14:29, Leonard Smalls said:

Talking of Stu Hamm you can see how he stacks up against some other bass players in this ultimate widdle-fest! For me he's nowhere near the best in this group - top 3 for me (apart from Stan) are Bunny Brunel, Billy Sheehan and Jimmy Johnson - none of whom do slappyclappy stuff...

 

 

It's interesting to see that Flea is the one who plays by far the most melodic and understated solo, if not the most technical.

[Stub Mandrel]

11 hours ago, Paul S said:

I don't 'get' lots and lots of bass players' appeal, most of them have been mentioned more than once.  But here's one - and I fear this is a bit like telling an Irish joke in a Dublin pub - Lemmy.  I just don't get him or Motorhead.  Never have.  I kind of think 'Ace of Spades' is an OK tune but hardly enough to prop up a 40 year career.  To me it just proves how far having 'attitude' and a big gob can get you because, so far as I can see, he has no other attributes to warrant his Deity status.  Just the one bass sound and Janet and John song writing.  

 

 

 

I wondered when someone would mention Lemmy.

 

I would refer the Jury to his time with Hawkwind, especially Space Ritual.  Hawkwind music is not like that of other bands, while very now and then a song will be carried by the bass hook - Take Me To the River, for example, in many Hawkwind songs Lemmy's bassline was the primary melody, perhaps with rhythm guitar adding a bit of depth, in a way that set the mould for much of their future output.

And his greatest bit of Janet and John songwriting doesn't even have bass in it.

 

 

[JohnH89]

Lemmy ! How very dare you .  😁 . Not a bass player as much as  rhythm guitarist who played the bass . Legend

[Stub Mandrel]

I'm struggling. If I mention any names, it would really be because I don't enjoy the type of music they play. I like MOST music, although I'm heavily influenced by my mood.

 

The bass playing I like best includes a lot of blues-rock playing, but that's probably because it's the idiom I feel most comfortable with in my own playing - I listen to someone like Leo Lyons (a jazz bassist who ended up majoring in blues rock) and realise with some embarrassment just how hard I try to sound like him...

The fast, jazzy stuff (Jaco's more esoteric stuff, Joe Dart etc.) I struggle with, not so much because I can't play it very well, but because I don't get it musically so I struggle to understand where it's going and that takes away the pleasure in listening and the joy in playing (because if I try it becomes rote repetition if I copy or clichéd patterns if I try and improvise).

 

I suppose my pet hate is the way straight eighth root notes with a few other passing and grace notes have come to dominate so much popular music - does that mean I should suggest Adam Clayton? The thing I enjoy in 60s and 70s pop music in contrast is that so many songs have creative bass lines that make use of so much more than root-third-fifth-seventh, for me it even makes some 'bubblegum' songs of the sixties worth hearing.

[nilorius]

4 minutes ago, JohnH89 said:

Lemmy ! How very dare you .  😁 . Not a bass player as much as  rhythm guitarist who played the bass . Legend

I think that much rhythm guitarists peffer to switch to a baritone guitar. Wise switch.

[Barking Spiders]

7 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

Indeed. I got as far as Bakithi Kumalo (whose playing on Graceland I absolutely love) and decided to give up (unless Daryl Jones was after him, in which case that's how far I got). They sound far better in context. This reminded me of

 

 

Among that 25 are many of my fave players but not within the context shown. I second your comment about Bakithi. His lines on Graceland are sublime. Marcus M is my #2 fave but it's his playing on albums like Miles Davis' Tutu and Winelight by Grover Washington jnr I like.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

Winelight by Grover Washington jnr I like.

 

I have that album. I listened to it once.

[tauzero]

Nobody has mentioned whoever played bass on "I'm still waiting" yet, even though he/she plays an awful lot of notes.

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 03/04/2024 at 21:48, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I wondered when someone would mention Lemmy.

 

I would refer the Jury to his time with Hawkwind, especially Space Ritual.  Hawkwind music is not like that of other bands, while very now and then a song will be carried by the bass hook - Take Me To the River, for example, in many Hawkwind songs Lemmy's bassline was the primary melody, perhaps with rhythm guitar adding a bit of depth, in a way that set the mould for much of their future output.

And his greatest bit of Janet and John songwriting doesn't even have bass in it.

 

 

You forget that in many a bass players view here bass being anything but root notes is considered unnecessary flashy meaningless noise and heresy, regardless if it serves the song or not, according to these people it is simply by definition not possible to groove if you play more than just 1 note, and all songs should groove, if not they are simply by definition to be categorized as meaningless noise!  

 

Edited April 6 by Baloney Balderdash

[Paolo85]

11 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I suppose my pet hate is the way straight eighth root notes with a few other passing and grace notes have come to dominate so much popular music - does that mean I should suggest Adam Clayton? The thing I enjoy in 60s and 70s pop music in contrast is that so many songs have creative bass lines that make use of so much more than root-third-fifth-seventh, for me it even makes some 'bubblegum' songs of the sixties worth hearing.

I hear you! While I can't say I hate that, it is a pity. I suppose part of the "problem" is how much the sound of rithmic guitar and keyboards has changed since the 60's. Guitars shifted from being thin, limited in dynamics but charming to a beast that can make all imaginable noises. The bass had to take a step back as guitars go centre stage..

...of course that's not the only reason. It's also, quite simply, a style that seem to work. Unfortunately, in a way

 

[Leonard Smalls]

11 minutes ago, Paolo85 said:

Unfortunately

Aye... I think it's a shame that complex music isn't more widely appreciated and that incredibly simple little ditties make the money!

In terms of bass this is illustrated in our band. We've got two bass players - me playing far too many notes and R, who's from a purely punk background, playing easy root note stuff. However, this doesn't work in all our songs so I've taught him some chords above the twelfth fret to do effectively rhythm guitar stuff.

First time he did this live a guy in the audience who knew R from his previous band shouted "Oi! Flash W4nkr!"

[ubit]

1 hour ago, Paolo85 said:

I hear you! While I can't say I hate that, it is a pity. I suppose part of the "problem" is how much the sound of rithmic guitar and keyboards has changed since the 60's. Guitars shifted from being thin, limited in dynamics but charming to a beast that can make all imaginable noises. The bass had to take a step back as guitars go centre stage..

...of course that's not the only reason. It's also, quite simply, a style that seem to work. Unfortunately, in a way

 

 

I agree. To me the whole song is what matters. If Adam Clayton was dealing out complicated riffs, they probably wouldn't compliment the song. Look at the song Waterfront, by Simple Minds. It just works.

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, ubit said:

To me the whole song is what matters

This is often a BC way of saying "keep it simple cos that's the only way to do it that isn't blatant showing off!"

😁

I mean, there's all sorts of songs - Waterfront with its 1 note (though Simple Minds did far more complex stuff too), Rhythm Stick, School Days... But there seems to be lots of folks who are instantly turned off if music is at all complicated (Rhythm Stick excepted!) - this is why Mr Sheeran and Take That are multi-millionaires and Mörglbl are at best niche despite being completely awesome musicians.

In the UK there's a weird sort of anti-intellectual thang going on; when I was a kid you should have heard the jeering from my 13 year old classmates when they discovered I'd read  both the Iliad and the Odyssey. If a red-top newspaper ever reports anything scientific it's always prefaced by "Boffins have discovered", as if Boffins are a different species from yer average Joe and somehow to be pitied. I mean why would you tinker about with all this cleverness and not be watching the footie or enjoying the X Factor? The only sorts of knowledge that are acceptable under this scenario are an ability to recite every FA cup winner since 1921 or the exact exhaust valve clearance of a 1968 Ford Anglia. That's proper bloke stuff innit, not wishy-washy wet swot stuff! I blame The Beano...

[silverfoxnik]

7 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

This is often a BC way of saying "keep it simple cos that's the only way to do it that isn't blatant showing off!"

😁

I mean, there's all sorts of songs - Waterfront with its 1 note (though Simple Minds did far more complex stuff too), Rhythm Stick, School Days... But there seems to be lots of folks who are instantly turned off if music is at all complicated (Rhythm Stick excepted!) - this is why Mr Sheeran and Take That are multi-millionaires and Mörglbl are at best niche despite being completely awesome musicians.

In the UK there's a weird sort of anti-intellectual thang going on; when I was a kid you should have heard the jeering from my 13 year old classmates when they discovered I'd read  both the Iliad and the Odyssey. If a red-top newspaper ever reports anything scientific it's always prefaced by "Boffins have discovered", as if Boffins are a different species from yer average Joe and somehow to be pitied. I mean why would you tinker about with all this cleverness and not be watching the footie or enjoying the X Factor? The only sorts of knowledge that are acceptable under this scenario are an ability to recite every FA cup winner since 1921 or the exact exhaust valve clearance of a 1968 Ford Anglia. That's proper bloke stuff innit, not wishy-washy wet swot stuff! I blame The Beano...

Very true! 

 

What's that old British saying about 'not getting ideas above your station!' 

 

[ezbass]

7 minutes ago, silverfoxnik said:

Very true! 

 

What's that old British saying about 'not getting ideas above your station!' 

 

 

A mindset proliferated by the upper classes to keep the riff raff where they want them - down. Or by inverse snobs.

Edited April 4 by ezbass

[silverfoxnik]

On 03/04/2024 at 08:25, Steve Browning said:

John Entwistle. The bass equivalent of Yngwie Malmsteen.

Not sure I get that reference, Steve.. 🤔

 

There's been a lot of mention in this thread about how a bass players primary role is to 'play (or support) the song' , which is an assertion I pretty much agree with. 

 

But equally, as a listening, creative musician, you also have to 'play the band' as well... 

 

Only my opinion of course, but I think Entwistle's style and approach to bass playing and creating bass lines, played the band context he was in  perfectly.

 

His playing next to Keith Moon's, created something different, something that set The Who apart from other bands.. Not dissimilar to JPJ and John Bonham in Led Zep, for example. 

 

In both cases, those two rhythm sections had a unique approach that elevated the band's music beyond the norm, and beyond others - hence why we still talk about them today. 

 

Doesn’t mean we all have to like it, but I personally respect that level of creativity and ambition. 

 

On a similar note, I'm a huge fan of James Jamerson's playing. And his approach was something different as well - for example, the bass line on 'What's Going On' is a masterclass to me...

 

But I think it's fair to say that what he played on that song isn't what 99% of other bass players would have played on that it.. 

 

Yet, it's (quite rightly) celebrated as a work of bass playing genius... 

 

Just my 2p worth of course. And there are loads of renowned bass players who 'I don't get', or like, or care for. 

 

But what I would say is that there's always something you can learn from those people that helps improve your own playing, or musical creativity, even just a little ... 

[Baloney Balderdash]

I don't get Einstein.

 

And I am pretty sure his Theory of Relativity is just nonsense.

 

For sure quantum mechanics are, even a ten years old can tell that.

 

Why try so hard to be clever?

 

Edited April 4 by Baloney Balderdash

[Barking Spiders]

55 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

This is often a BC way of saying "keep it simple cos that's the only way to do it that isn't blatant showing off!"

😁

I mean, there's all sorts of songs - Waterfront with its 1 note (though Simple Minds did far more complex stuff too), Rhythm Stick, School Days... But there seems to be lots of folks who are instantly turned off if music is at all complicated (Rhythm Stick excepted!) - this is why Mr Sheeran and Take That are multi-millionaires and Mörglbl are at best niche despite being completely awesome musicians.

In the UK there's a weird sort of anti-intellectual thang going on; when I was a kid you should have heard the jeering from my 13 year old classmates when they discovered I'd read  both the Iliad and the Odyssey. If a red-top newspaper ever reports anything scientific it's always prefaced by "Boffins have discovered", as if Boffins are a different species from yer average Joe and somehow to be pitied. I mean why would you tinker about with all this cleverness and not be watching the footie or enjoying the X Factor? The only sorts of knowledge that are acceptable under this scenario are an ability to recite every FA cup winner since 1921 or the exact exhaust valve clearance of a 1968 Ford Anglia. That's proper bloke stuff innit, not wishy-washy wet swot stuff! I blame The Beano...

There's long been an anti-'intellectual' prejudice, not just the right wing press but across UK society at large, which doesn't exist across western Europe. Take opera for example. Here it's 'music for snobs' but in Italy (which I know best) it's for everyone and anyone. There there's no association between high art and  social class. In France, which I've also lived in, there are living philosophers that are near household names. It most definitely is a British disease. Maybe it's similar in other anglophone countries I can't say. There you go, If I was overheard saying 'anglophone' in an English pub I'd get my head kicked in. As for 'boffins' that equates with nerd and geek in the UK and the US (or whatever the equivalent of boffins is) for that matter. Look at some English phrases e.g. 'smart Alec', 'too clever by half', these are perjoratives (now I've gone and done it).  Going back to music, it's quite depressing too be reminded how Oasis and Spice Girls fever gripped the general British public back in the 90s a time when 'Jack the lad' publications like Loaded and FHM were go-to reading for males under 30.

[Stub Mandrel]

15 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

You forget than in many a bass players view here bass being anything but root notes is unnecessary flashy meaningless noise and heresy, regardless if it serves the song or not, according to these people it is simply by definition not possible to groove if you play more than just 1 note, and all songs should groove, if not they are simply to be categorized as meaningless noise!  

 

 

I don't subscribe to that view, but rather like the Amadeus clip there is some truth in the idea you can have too many notes. It's very hard to play fast or percussively and be expressive and melodic (although Wooten does in the clip above IMHO). But there are an uncountable multitude of middle ways between mindless shredding and plain root-notes, many of which are more interesting.

[TimR]

19 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

You forget than in many a bass players view here bass being anything but root notes is unnecessary flashy meaningless noise and heresy, regardless if it serves the song or not, according to these people it is simply by definition not possible to groove if you play more than just 1 note, and all songs should groove, if not they are simply to be categorized as meaningless noise!  

 

 

Well I suppose as it's the Internet you can either only ever play root notes or be a flashy show off. 

 

I'm obviously one of those flashy show offs as I have been known to quite often play as many as 4 notes in a bar...

 

I once played 8! 

 

 

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

I'm obviously one of those flashy show offs as I have been known to quite often play as many as 4 notes in a bar...

 

I once played 8! 

 

 

 

Heretic! 

 

You should be stripped of your lapels and thrown out of the forum. 

[White Cloud]

9 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

There's long been an anti-'intellectual' prejudice, not just the right wing press but across UK society at large, which doesn't exist across western Europe. Take opera for example. Here it's 'music for snobs' but in Italy (which I know best) it's for everyone and anyone. There there's no association between high art and  social class. In France, which I've also lived in, there are living philosophers that are near household names. It most definitely is a British disease. Maybe it's similar in other anglophone countries I can't say. There you go, If I was overheard saying 'anglophone' in an English pub I'd get my head kicked in. As for 'boffins' that equates with nerd and geek in the UK and the US (or whatever the equivalent of boffins is) for that matter. Look at some English phrases e.g. 'smart Alec', 'too clever by half', these are perjoratives (now I've gone and done it).  Going back to music, it's quite depressing too be reminded how Oasis and Spice Girls fever gripped the general British public back in the 90s a time when 'Jack the lad' publications like Loaded and FHM were go-to reading for males under 30.

Absolutely 💯

[Count Bassy]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

Well I suppose as it's the Internet you can either only ever play root notes or be a flashy show off. 

 

I'm obviously one of those flashy show offs as I have been known to quite often play as many as 4 notes in a bar...

 

I once played 8! 

 

 

8 notes in a bar is acceptable if you're playing a whole gig while you're in there.

[Misdee]

12 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

There's long been an anti-'intellectual' prejudice, not just the right wing press but across UK society at large, which doesn't exist across western Europe. Take opera for example. Here it's 'music for snobs' but in Italy (which I know best) it's for everyone and anyone. There there's no association between high art and  social class. In France, which I've also lived in, there are living philosophers that are near household names. It most definitely is a British disease. Maybe it's similar in other anglophone countries I can't say. There you go, If I was overheard saying 'anglophone' in an English pub I'd get my head kicked in. As for 'boffins' that equates with nerd and geek in the UK and the US (or whatever the equivalent of boffins is) for that matter. Look at some English phrases e.g. 'smart Alec', 'too clever by half', these are perjoratives (now I've gone and done it).  Going back to music, it's quite depressing too be reminded how Oasis and Spice Girls fever gripped the general British public back in the 90s a time when 'Jack the lad' publications like Loaded and FHM were go-to reading for males under 30.

I love this post.

 

On the subject of Oasis, have you noticed how the British media have cultivated Noel Gallagher's grandiose delusions by appointing him as a spokesman for a whole host of social and cultural topics. Music, football, politics, marriage, crime, you name it. Noel is invited to share his very definite and forthright opinions expressed in his own  inimitable way. His diatribes usually begin with " No one can tell me, right that...".

 

I expect no one can tell Noel much, especially people better informed, better educated and more intelligent than him. That's why the British public identify with his persona. To Noel the world is a very definite place and that certainty is hugely reassuring to some people.

 

 Now I've got that off my chest, could I just point out that Waterfront by Simple Minds is more than just that one note shuffle in so much as there's overdubbed fretless bass interspersed throughout the track. Great song, superb bass player.

 

 

[ubit]

I guess it's a British thing isn't it.

 

We like to build people up until they become successful. The underdog all the way and all that.

 

Then when they become successful, we like to knock them down. Flash twitt.