1x12 advice please

[BigJHW]

i know i know this has come up time and time again but mans gotta ask

 

So... The band i'm in went "amp-less".. not knowing anything about PA's or what's good not good - i assume the band leader who bought the PA had considered things like "bass response" from the PA he was getting.

He got a power amp, a digital mixer, and a couple of cabs.

Listening to spotify though the PA the bass response was awesome even when cranked to 11 !! but here's where the mistake happened.

 

Off the back of that (remember i know nowt about PA speakers), i sold my BF212T, i still DI though my Eich T900 cause i like the sound it puts out but i am officially Cab-less now.

We've done a few gigs by this point

sound in my IEM's is amazing

Sound check - this is a strange one as i'm not wireless on the bass BUT.. when i had my BF212 i knew what that sound like out front so when i eq'd/lvl'd the vocals etc in sound check i wasn't worried about the bass not being there because i knew what it was going to sound like live.

 

several gigs in and for the 1st time someone came up after our 1st set and said "it all sounds amazing BUT you can't hear any bass player"

Concerned i unmute the PA play some bass - it rumbles through the venue - you can DEFO hear the bass - so i'm left confused - assume he's wrong and we start the second set

Still worried i don't put my IEM's back in and.... well he's right
as soon as the full band go through the PA ALL the bass end vanishes and it's 100% mids and highs

 

Suddenly i realise the speakers aren't good enough standalone to cope with all the frequencies coming from 2 guitars, 4 vocals a drum OH mic, kick drum mic and the bass.

 

From here we have 2 options - buy a couple of cheap subs to take the low end away from the top cabs and that should solve the problem OR buy a 1x12 and take my bass totally out of the PA and just push through the cab on stage.

 

Problem is space - in the car on the way to a gig (as we've downsized transport by going cabless so now only take 2 cars instead of 4)
Cost - i need to find the cheapest option there is out there for real life financial reasons
Weight - need to keep it as lightweight as possible for getting in and out of gigs

Size - i'd love to get another 2x12 as the sound from 2 12" woofers is excellent - but i need to keep size down especially looking at some of the venues we're playing in the UK nowadays

So what can we suggest ladies and gents of the low end world?

 

I've seen a reasonably price Orange OBC112 - but i'd have to buy it blind as can't get there to try it out (Reputable reseller so should be in excellent working order)
but not sure if you can suggest other options before i pull the trigger on the Orange.

 

Sorry for a long ass post and thanks for reading/your advice.

 

Big JHW

 

p.s - don't sell your cab if you go ampless - keep it cause otherwise you'll feel like an idiot !!! (like me)

[Phil Starr]

Theres two questions here really.

 

1. WTF is going on with the PA?

2. What 12" cab?

 

Answering the second one first, you'll  get 100 suggestions and we'll all say the same thing more or less. "This one is my favourite, so that is what I use so you should too".  Given that I'm as biased as everyone else I use a LFSys Monaco and IMO it's the best It fits the lightweight bit of the brief and one cab will do all you want/need so you won't need to consider a 2x12 or a couple of 1x12's. Other speakers are available.

 

So going on to the PA. I don't hink going back to using backline to reach the audience is a great idea now you've done the difficult bit of transferring to the PA and setting up in ears. You'll be back with everyone getting a bit of bleed from your bass cab however good their in ears are and the bass will then be feeding through the vocal mics and your sound from the PA will be compromised.

 

Loads of what you say about the PA doesn't make sense to me at the moment, there's a piece of the jig-saw missing. I find it hard to believe that the bass alone is cut from the PA. Lot's of PA speakers are protected form overload but it's usually all or nothing, the PA cuts out and resets until you fix the fault or the bass triggers a limiter which turns the volume down in which case everything else would bee too quite. A few willlimit the bass only but it's turned down on the peaks only not all the time.

 

Secondly if the bass is really good on recorded music then it should be just as good and loud with your bass, unless you are doing something odd with the eq or just trying to be too loud, louder than the Spotify bass. If this hasn't happened before, and no-one else has pointed it out at previous gigs could it be  lead problem. Does the kick or floor tom set off the same problem? It's worth getting back to a rehearsal room and see if you can replicate the fault and then fix it before spending precious money.

 

If you do try to spend then I'd probably go for a sub rather than a bass cab, you don't really need two and if one isn't loud enough then one big one is better than two small ones, so again save some money and space by getting that right too. I'm happy to explain this if you want but its a bit techy so I'll keep it short here.

Edited March 25 by Phil Starr

[BigJHW]

HA with regard to the PA - honestly no idea
We are planning on getting in to the studio asap (hard to co-ordinate but we're working on it) to figure out what's going on with the PA

i think the problem is the band lead went cheap with the PA speakers - i can't even tell you what they are

but it is indeed just punching out mids and highs when everything gets going

i was actually quite shocked when i stood out in front of house at the last gig (my cable was long enough i could get out there in the floor and listen - and oddly the venue was very quiet - not idea but served its purpose that night)
solo'd the bass or the kick come through great, punchy bassey and awesome - but when it all happens at once - poof no bass end

we shall have to look in it

but that's for the cab idea  Defo ticks 2/3 boxes (i've looked at these before - they do seem excellent - if not a bit pricey - but i had a BF cab so i understand pricey haha)

[maidens97]

Ampeg 112AV is a good shout and one for sale on here currently!

[Chienmortbb]

LIke Phil I would investigate the PA further before buying a new bass cab. I would not rule it out and remember that the you may need a cab at some point.

Post the make and model of the PA  speakers and we could comment further.

Rereading your original post, you have passive speakers. There is little real work going on as far as development of passive boxes and those that are out there in general will not do what you want. Also look at the amp. If the singer cut corners, and it sounds like he did, the amp just may not be up to it. Spotify tracks are compressed to hell and may sound better than a live performance. There will be limiters and protection circuits on the amp and they may affect the sound.

 

 

[Pea Turgh]

Could be something daft like a compressor ducking the bass channel on the digital mixer?

[BassAdder60]

On 25/03/2024 at 19:23, maidens97 said:

Ampeg 112AV is a good shout and one for sale on here currently!

It was until I pulled it from sale and decided to make a home rig out of it with the Micro VR head 

 

They are lovely looking cabs too, important for home use 

Might pop feet on end so I can flip it on to its end like BF cabs tend to do 

Edited March 28 by BassAdder60

[lemmywinks]

Just get a single powered sub to start with, that's all we use now and we do some pretty big rooms. I also have the full mixer app on a tablet instead of using the simplified monitoring one, partly as a backup in case our big tablet fails and also partly so I can quickly check any weird eq stuff going on with the bass!

 

 

[BigJHW]

29 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

Just get a single powered sub to start with, that's all we use now and we do some pretty big rooms. I also have the full mixer app on a tablet instead of using the simplified monitoring one, partly as a backup in case our big tablet fails and also partly so I can quickly check any weird eq stuff going on with the bass!

 

 

I hadn't considered getting a powered sub as a solution because we use a power amp and passive PA cabs.

As someone who has "zero" clue when it comes to PA's

how would i go about connecting a powered sub to passive PA cabs.. Can i just use the "line Output" from the back of the passive cab? Or will that also take power from the PowerAmp and try to power the already powered sub?

Sorry TOTAL PA noob here

Starting to think just getting a 4x10 and 1x15 to make my bass sound awesome might be the plan haha

[lemmywinks]

3 hours ago, BigJHW said:

I hadn't considered getting a powered sub as a solution because we use a power amp and passive PA cabs.

As someone who has "zero" clue when it comes to PA's

how would i go about connecting a powered sub to passive PA cabs.. Can i just use the "line Output" from the back of the passive cab? Or will that also take power from the PowerAmp and try to power the already powered sub?

Sorry TOTAL PA noob here

Starting to think just getting a 4x10 and 1x15 to make my bass sound awesome might be the plan haha

 

Ah right, I also don't know much about PA but you'd have to take the XLR feed from the desk, plug that into the sub then take another two XLR from the sub's output and feed that to the power amp for your tops. The sub will have a built in crossover so does all the work for you.

 

Powered cabs are the way to go really, much easier to set up and transport.

[Chienmortbb]

JBL used to make a powered sub that would take a feed from an amplifier as well as from a mixer. Look for JBL EON Powersub G2. 
 

Whether one of those would be OK I am not sure. There is a filter inside for the subwoofer that  ensures that it does not get a full range signal. 

 

JBL EON Powersub G2
 

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

If the desk has a spare Aux channel you can send anything you want to be sub boosted to that and the aux out goes to the sub.

 

It makes mixing a bit more complicated but should only be the kick and bass in most bands.

[BigJHW]

6 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

If the desk has a spare Aux channel you can send anything you want to be sub boosted to that and the aux out goes to the sub.

 

It makes mixing a bit more complicated but should only be the kick and bass in most bands.

Oooo i like that

We're using a Midas MR18 if i recall and as we're only using 4 of the 6 Aux Outs for IEM's that IS a possibility ..... i do the mixing mostly anyway so it's only really me that needs to worry about getting the Aux out mix right for a powered sub...
Hmmmm this is something to consider.

 

@Chienmortbb - Thanks for the idea about the powered subs - saw you message but forgot to reply last night. It's not me that'd be buying it if we get one - PA belongs to the singer - but i'll deffo put the suggestion too him - thanks for that

 

[Dan Dare]

One good quality powered sub will be better than two not-so-good ones. You need clarity and not that horrible one note bass boom you get from cheap subs. You don't need stereo low end. It's pointless to have it as lower frequencies are not directional. You can also end up with oddities due to room acoustics if you place two subs apart from each other. Placement of a sub is important, so worth experimenting. You should be able to send a line level signal from your Midas to an active sub (or subs).

[pete.young]

On 04/04/2024 at 13:11, BigJHW said:

I hadn't considered getting a powered sub as a solution because we use a power amp and passive PA cabs.

As someone who has "zero" clue when it comes to PA's

how would i go about connecting a powered sub to passive PA cabs.. Can i just use the "line Output" from the back of the passive cab? Or will that also take power from the PowerAmp and try to power the already powered sub?
 

 

One option might be to use a 'Group Bus' output on your mixer, assuming it has them, to send an input to the sub. You probably don't want to put everything through it, just bass guitar channel and maybe a bit of kick drum.

 

Edit: After I posted this I saw that you are using a Midas MR18 so it doesn't have group buses, but @Downunderwonder suggestion of a spare aux will work just as well. My analogue Yamaha mixer has group buses so someone else reading the thread might find the idea useful. Maybe group buses have been swept away in the digital revolution, I'm still firmly stuck in the last century!

Edited April 7 by pete.young

[TimR]

It's not a phasing issue is it?

 

Maybe caused by speaker position?

 

Does it happen at all gigs? 

[BassmanPaul]

My first thoughts are: who's doing the mixing? What is he doing to the bass channel? How  are you connecting to the mixer? all these questions are important. If the guy doing the actual mixing is new to the game he could well be cutting bass frequencies for some reason.

 

[BigJHW]

1 hour ago, BassmanPaul said:

My first thoughts are: who's doing the mixing? What is he doing to the bass channel? How  are you connecting to the mixer? all these questions are important. If the guy doing the actual mixing is new to the game he could well be cutting bass frequencies for some reason.

 

well.. the guy doing the mixing is 100% clueless about the speaker cabs but can mix a great out front sound usually - it's ME
the mixer i'm fine with Midas MR18 digital desk - and as i'm also the bass player i assure you i'm not cutting anything bass haha - in fact i'm trying to add more
honestly it appear it's the PA cabs
did a gig at the weekend and took a couple of old peavy 15" subs along and BOOM awesome front end sound - punchy bass and kick drum - EVERYTHING was as it should be

i'd not paid attention to what cabs the singer had bought - but he bought super cheap to save on size and weight - and they are NOT suitable to pushing the entire band through (can't remember what they actually are but they're Behringer "cheap" passive cabs... i'm almost certain his old yamaha cabs would have done a better job but would have been heavier and bigger which is what he was trying to avoid.

 

Looks like i'm gonna grab a cheap Bergantino AE112 - just so i've got something for when we're not using the subs (they don't fit in all our venues)
it's gonna have to be careful with the Eich T900 but i'll never turn it above 1/3 master volume anyway so no where near damaging the cab

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

You're never going to get a good bass result with pole mounted PA boxes. They lack the boundary reinforcement provided by being close to the floor, they don't get the boundary reinforcement provided by being close to the rear wall, they may even have bass cancellations from the bounce off the wall and off the floor. You need a cab for the low frequencies that can be placed on the floor close to the rear wall, be it a sub or your own bass cab.   

[BigJHW]

1 minute ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

You're never going to get a good bass result with pole mounted PA boxes. They lack the boundary reinforcement provided by being close to the floor, they don't get the boundary reinforcement provided by being close to the rear wall, they may even have bass cancellations from the bounce off the wall and off the floor. You need a cab for the low frequencies that can be placed on the floor close to the rear wall, be it a sub or your own bass cab.   

thanks
i'm actually learning a lot about PA cabs now - as its become clear the band leader maybe isn't as clued up as he thought he was or i thought he was before selling off my BF212T (yup... that was a mistake - ah well we live and learn)