Silent stages - a soul-less gigging experience? (And...why don't musos provide their own kit?!)

[police squad]

52 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Digitech FreqOut

oh my god!! Really?

I have to check this out

[StingRayBoy42]

We use (Mic'd up and through FOH) guitar amps on stage so the guitar I'm hearing in my IEMs sounds like it's going through an amp.
IEMs do take a bit of getting used to - like someone above said, you hear all your mistakes with crystal clarity which can be an eye opener, and not in a good way.
Getting a good mix in your ears is crucial - we use Qu-You (?) so we all do our own mixes.
It does feel a bit weird at first, but once you get used to it it's fantastic, particularly if you sing - as much of your vocals as you want without them bothering anyone else.

I also gig in a non-IEM pub rock band (vocal PA, wedge monitor and ACG custom lug plugs), it's quicker and less faff to set up but the sound you're given is the sound you get.

I'd encourage everyone to try IEMs and stick with them for a bit, get a good mix and keep the volume at a decent level.

If you don't/can't/won't use them for any reason, use earplugs!
ACG customs are well worth the outlay - there's no amount of money that will cure tinnitus.

[warwickhunt]

23 hours ago, JPJ said:

Where we’re at is backline levels equal to acoustic drums. Drummer, singer/guitarist, fiddle player all use IEM to help them hear their instrument/voice clearer. Second guitarist/bv uses a floor wedge. I vary between backline only, hearing protection (ACS custom moulds) or IEM (Sennheiser 100’s and Xvive U4) depending on the gig. If the room means drums and particularly the cymbals are painfully loud then I’ll go either ACS or IEM. But as I mix the live sound from the side of the stage, I’m always nervous about going IEM and potentially missing something with the FOH mix. If we have the luxury of provided PA and engineer, then I’ll go IEM every time.

 

...and tonight's set up will be? 

 

[Al Krow]

31 minutes ago, police squad said:

oh my god!! Really?

I have to check this out

 

See - this thread has already proved its worth! 😅

[EBS_freak]

57 minutes ago, Japhet said:

I can't help but wonder whether there will come a time when audiences too are supplied with headsets at large gigs. How surreal would that be? Huge crowd, band silence in the arena as they jump about and sing out of tune. I wonder what the reaction would be if you told potential punters that this is how a gig would work. I'd hazard a guess that many of them would be horrified and would much rather prefer the rawness of soaking up a conventional gig at normal volume.

I’ve already done it. Problematic wedding venue. The band went silent stage, the audience went headphones. It’s not that strange really - silent discos have been a thing for ages.

 

Only difference really, is that you better know how to mix when everything is crystal clear!

 

here’s an example -

 

 

[Japhet]

30 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I’ve already done it. Problematic wedding venue. The band went silent stage, the audience went headphones. It’s not that strange really - silent discos have been a thing for ages.

 

Only difference really, is that you better know how to mix when everything is crystal clear!

 

here’s an example -

 

 

 

No surprise that I'm way behind the curve (as usual). However, that gig looks surreal (and sterile) to me. Audience didn't look too engaged in it either.

[Jack]

5 hours ago, Japhet said:

I can't help but wonder whether there will come a time when audiences too are supplied with headsets at large gigs. How surreal would that be? Huge crowd, band silence in the arena as they jump about and sing out of tune. I wonder what the reaction would be if you told potential punters that this is how a gig would work. I'd hazard a guess that many of them would be horrified and would much rather prefer the rawness of soaking up a conventional gig at normal volume.

There's a video somewhere with Metallica's sound man where he says they've been experimenting with an app that would let audience members choose their own mix. James's iems, front of house, the recording mix, etc. I'm a digital learning person in my day job, my immediate thought was it would be great to add in some audio description or commentary on a mix for visually impaired people. 

[tauzero]

7 hours ago, StingRayBoy42 said:

I'd encourage everyone to try IEMs and stick with them for a bit, get a good mix and keep the volume at a decent level.

 

OK. All I have to do is upgrade the vocal-only PA so it'll take bass too, find somewhere to store the active sub and employ a slave to move it, mic up the drums, and either mic up the guitar amps or persuade the guitarists to go through the PA. A couple of thousand quid and an extra hour of setting up per night should cover it.

[EBS_freak]

30 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

OK. All I have to do is upgrade the vocal-only PA so it'll take bass too, find somewhere to store the active sub and employ a slave to move it, mic up the drums, and either mic up the guitar amps or persuade the guitarists to go through the PA. A couple of thousand quid and an extra hour of setting up per night should cover it.

Do you play through a sub already…?

[tauzero]

2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Do you play through a sub already…?

 

No, through a combo. Hence "upgrade the vocal-only PA" and "find somewhere to store the active sub".

[EBS_freak]

33 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

No, through a combo. Hence "upgrade the vocal-only PA" and "find somewhere to store the active sub".

A combo does not do and will not do what a sub does, hence confused as why you think you’d need one.

[tauzero]

27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

A combo does not do and will not do what a sub does, hence confused as why you think you’d need one.

 

For a silent stage. This is very confusing. Doesn't a silent stage with no backline mean I don't use backline? Or can I use backline silently and we just mime?

[EBS_freak]

You don’t need a sub for a silent stage. Just a decent set of full range PA tops which can cover the lows in the same manner as your bass cabs.

[lemmywinks]

On 18/04/2024 at 16:53, ProjeKtWEREWOLF said:

As a punter, I hate it. I saw several tribute acts recently at a medium sized venue, who all played direct into the PA. I was stage front, and it was strange and lacking in Energy. 

 

As a musician, I like to feel my clothes flapping in the air coming off the cabs. It's ROCK AND ROLL! 

I'm a recent returnee to playing though and haven't arrived at the point where I need to decide on this approach. I might feel different. 

 

You can't feel your clothes flapping due to air coming off backline cabs, especially at a decent sized venue. Was probably the air con.

[lemmywinks]

On 19/04/2024 at 18:19, Woodinblack said:

I am the drummer wear IEMs. The others can do whatever they want, and now we have a new keyboard player join, he has a monitor, so the guitarist is really happy about that, he has been complaining for a while he couldn't hear well, and I kept pointing out we had many monitor out sockets left if he wanted to do anything about it.

 

Haha this is the best solution, amazing how quickly the problem (and subesquent whining) goes away when the solution is that person buying, carrying and setting up their own piece of equipment.

[W1_Pro]

Lots of good points made already. As others have said it's really a 'horses for courses' type question. I would add two things: When I used to do monitors for a living, prior to getting kicked upstairs, I found IEM's were incredibly helpful if the turn had a weak singer (no doubt the singer found it incredibly helpful too, but I'm being selfish😂). Also, in terms of monitor systems, I think from memory all of the acts which I did used IEM's as an add on to their 'conventional' monitor systems.  Most specs I see nowadays seem to ask for both. I don't recall ever seeing a spec for a silent stage, but I guess this is what Metallica do, so who knows?

Speaking as a player, and one who preffers wedges to IEM's, the big revelation for me came in the form of our drummer starting to use a triggered kit. All of a sudden there was no need to keep up with an acoustic drum kit. The on stage volume at shows and rehearsals is very much more civilised, and the complete lack of the aural 'slosh' (for want of a better word) you get onstage  from live cymbals and hi hats makes a huge difference for the better in terms of listening fatigue.    Our monitor system now comprises 4 Eon 110 speakers with an added 12" sub for the drummer. Works a treat.  Having said all that we still have to carry all of this. IEM's win hands down for portability. 

 

Edited April 21 by W1_Pro

[JPJ]

20 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

...and tonight's set up will be? 

 

Nothing in the first half (because I forgot to get them out of my gig bag before we started) ACS custom moulded protection with 17dB attenuation in the second half 😎

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

You don’t need a sub for a silent stage. Just a decent set of full range PA tops which can cover the lows in the same manner as your bass cabs.

 

Fair enough. So I just need the slave to lug the full range PA tops around, and to buy them in the first place.

 

If I were setting out on a journey from zero to a gigging band, and the other members were amenable, and somebody else could do the PA storage, I would try the IEM and silent stage route - after all, if nobody liked IEMs, it would still be perfectly feasible to run a quiet stage with monitors and no backline. However, I'm 66, doing 10-15 gigs a year at pub rates, not sure how many years of gigging I have left, own and store the PA, and have a limit of 10kg per item of equipment.

[gazhowe]

I'm fairly new to IEM's but not having an issue with not 'feeling it'.  My band only does occasional house rehearsals (when we learn new material) so the challenge i have at the moment is improving my personal IEM mix. It was awful at first but it's starting to come together after 4 gigs, mainly due to realising I need a different bass sound in my ears to what is going to FOH.  

 

We use backline and put everything through the PA but have recently lowered the guitar and bass backline volume to help reduce stage volume.  We do our own on-stage mix which is sound checked by me without my IEM in and we're happy with our FOH sound.  I'm interested in silent stage but more from the point of not having to carry backline.  Unfortunately I suspect this won't happen as the guitarist likes his amp and it may require a PA upgrade which the band are unlikely to invest in.

[JPJ]

On 21/04/2024 at 12:59, gazhowe said:

 I'm interested in silent stage but more from the point of not having to carry backline.  Unfortunately I suspect this won't happen as the guitarist likes his amp and it may require a PA upgrade which the band are unlikely to invest in.

Exactly where I am at with one of my bands. I now have four out of five of us using IEM’s and whilst my PA isn’t the worst, I ‘feel’ I would have to upgrade to cope with a truly silent stage. 

[lemmywinks]

Not carrying backline along with having a very compact PA is probably why I can still enjoy gigging properly. My entire bass rig including preamp, cables, IEM setup and tablet fits in a gigbag, our desk (with router, power strip and bluetooth aux adapter) is in a 3u shallow rack bag and all our cables are in one of the Thomann cable bags.

 

Never been easier or faster to load in, setup and packdown. We had a band member and PA re-shuffle a few years ago and decided to go for the most compact PA as lugging a ton of stuff around was becoming a chore which we just didn't enjoy any more. Had a think about how we transported things and ended up with a tiny setup that sounds great and gives us excellent monitoring on any stage. Wasn't even expensive.

Edited April 24 by lemmywinks

[Chienmortbb]

On 20/04/2024 at 22:51, tauzero said:

A couple of thousand quid and an extra hour of setting up per night should cover it.

The time is something I think will come good after time. However, this is exactly my experience, partly caused by several cases of Ludititus.

[Jack]

22 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Not carrying backline along with having a very compact PA is probably why I can still enjoy gigging properly. My entire bass rig including preamp, cables, IEM setup and tablet fits in a gigbag, our desk (with router, power strip and bluetooth aux adapter) is in a 3u shallow rack bag and all our cables are in one of the Thomann cable bags.

 

Never been easier or faster to load in, setup and packdown. We had a band member and PA re-shuffle a few years ago and decided to go for the most compact PA as lugging a ton of stuff around was becoming a chore which we just didn't enjoy any more. Had a think about how we transported things and ended up with a tiny setup that sounds great and gives us excellent monitoring on any stage. Wasn't even expensive.

What PA did you end up with?

[Chienmortbb]

22 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

tiny setup that sounds great and gives us excellent monitoring on any stage. Wasn't even expensive.

Can't let that go, please explain your setup.

[lemmywinks]

3 hours ago, Jack said:

What PA did you end up with?

 

3 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Can't let that go, please explain your setup.

 

Think I've listed it on the last "I love IEMs / I hate IEMs" thread! It's a  Behringer XR18 and 2 x Alto TS210 with a single Alto sub, TS15 or something like that. The rack bag is the G4M 3u shallow.

 

The two lads that joined already had the speakers from their last band so I assumed we'd be using them on a temporary basis until we had enough for some RCF cabs in the band kitty, was genuinely surprised at how good they sounded in a decent sized room though. Years later and we haven't upgraded yet!

 

Our old setup was 2 x RCF725 with 2 RCF subs, did some huge outdoor events (playing on a league one football pitch to one of the stands) with that rig and was brilliant, the subs weighed a lot though and were pretty massive. Wouldn't expect anything like that from the Altos but for indoor use they're very capable.

 

We're a 5 piece with keys (and the keys player won't get a smaller keyboard) so can struggle for stage space, I'm pretty tall so always struggled with hearing myself if I was right on top of my cabs. Don't miss my amps at all but do miss those RCF subs!

Edited April 25 by lemmywinks