Silent stages - a soul-less gigging experience? (And...why don't musos provide their own kit?!)

[lemmywinks]

3 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I think it is difficult for drummers to embrace the SS idea because trad acoustic kits have a different feel to electronic or 'flats' kits and if you maintain a full acoustic kit with no backline I think (or experienced) that it is fraught with problems. 

 

We use a regular kit, no backline and everybody on IEMs, never had an issue with it. Our drummer doesn't want to use an electric kit which I fully understand that as the rest of us just get to use our normal instruments and ditch our amps.

[warwickhunt]

45 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

 

We use a regular kit, no backline and everybody on IEMs, never had an issue with it. Our drummer doesn't want to use an electric kit which I fully understand that as the rest of us just get to use our normal instruments and ditch our amps.

 

I might have been having an off day with the early IEM experiments but I was finding that I needed to have the volumes up more than I felt comfortable with to offset the drums.  Oddly when playing with backline and regular attenuated plugs in, I found it filtered everything uniformly and attenuated the drums better.  

[dave_bass5]

14 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I might have been having an off day with the early IEM experiments but I was finding that I needed to have the volumes up more than I felt comfortable with to offset the drums.  Oddly when playing with backline and regular attenuated plugs in, I found it filtered everything uniformly and attenuated the drums better.  

Might be the fit. 

[JPJ]

26 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I might have been having an off day with the early IEM experiments but I was finding that I needed to have the volumes up more than I felt comfortable with to offset the drums.  Oddly when playing with backline and regular attenuated plugs in, I found it filtered everything uniformly and attenuated the drums better.  

This has been my experience too on certain stages and yes, it’s almost certainly down to using universal fit IEM’s, whereas my ear plugs are custom moulds

[lemmywinks]

When I first got my ZS10 the supplied large tips were really good, don't know if they've softened over time but they do tend to be a lot more difficult to get properly seated and sealed. The cheap Spinfit tips I got yesterday (mentioned in the main IEM thread) seem much better. Seal straight away and stay put.

[warwickhunt]

It could be the fit or equally the tone of that particular IE that needs sensitive EQing but I've found work-arounds now and I can find ways to get what I need using multiple options; so all good. 

 

[Jack]

14 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

You see, I have made that mistake...

 

Ask a musician to put themselves into the PA, and they will buy the cheapest XLRs which will cut in and out with ends which get stuck in the desk sockets, the crappest DI boxes - and then look at you when nothing works. And that's assuming they actually remember to bring the gear to actually put themselves through the PA.

 

Thinking of stuff to save a gig...

 

I play through a Kemper because I know if the guitarists rig turns to 5h17, I can give my rig to them and I can go direct.

I carry round spare adapters for all sorts of things... and a soldering iron. I have been known to run an electric kit from a pedal board power supply because the drummer seemed to forget an important element of their electric kit.

I carry around spare strings for instruments I dont even play.

I carry around spare IEMs.

I carry a pair of drumsticks - which I have had to use, only for the drummer to then complain they were the wrong weight.

The amount of times the band would have been left high and dry without my ability to improvise and think my way out of issues is beyond a joke.

That's just the surface.

 

Basically, I own enough equipment and spares to be a band by myself... because people are inept. But whats worse, because they know I've got their back in all situations, they are even more complacent! 

 

The more "pro" a musician is, the more of a liability they are.

 

As has been mentioned a lot in this thread, different strokes for different folks. But I've got say man, that sounds a little mental to me. If they're not willing to think this through then I don't have the time to be babysitting them. Of course, I'll help out in a pinch if something has seriously gone unavoidably wrong, but if the guitarist has broken a string and they don't have either another guitar or another string then they're playing without. Happy to cancel the gig, I'll even go an tell the bar manager, party organiser, bride, whomever that the drummer says we need to go home because he's broken his only stick.

 

I have in the past purposefully drawn up plans to share gear to save carrying. When I had a full fat rack Helix the two guitarists in that band knew they didn't need to bring a shared amp because I had a stereo facility that I wasn't using. In my current band I've got an unused channel on the desk set up with a Sansamp emulator in case one of the guitar or bass processors goes down. Nobody needs to bring a spare mic because the backing vocals that the other 3 of us do aren't really that important, so one of us would just not sing if ours went, or the main singer would borrow one of our mics if his went. The two guitarists in my current band alternate which one of them brings 'the' spare guitar, etc. That's not a problem, because that's planning, but don't just shrug your shoulders and hope I'm bailing you out.

 

Every few weeks there's a 'do you bring a spare bass?' thread on here, and it's those people that we're dealing with here!

[dave_bass5]

I think a lot of this is just lack of experience, and others need to be shown what’s what. 
It’s bending the point  a little, but if i was to go and play with a band that has a PA, or to a gig that has a PA, i wouldn’t take an XLR cable with me unless asked. My thinking is if you have a PA you must surely have all the cables needed to use it so why would i need to bring any. Obviously with my own band the i told them all to get some, which they did, but a lot of people will naturally assume a PA comes with leads. 
It’s about communicating with those involved and sorting it out. Not everyone is a clued up as we are here, so we need to educate. 

[BigRedX]

Because of the nature of my bands we don't need a PA because we don't play anywhere where there isn't an in-house system. However we make sure that we that apart from drum and guitar amp mics their associated leads and stands (for the band that has a drummer and guitar amps) we have everything required to connect our equipment to the PA stage box. That means DI boxes for everything that requires it and XLRs. On several occasions I have found that replacing the PA XLR lead with one of mine has mysteriously resolved a problem that was supposedly down to the our gear.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

I think a lot of this is just lack of experience, and others need to be shown what’s what. 
It’s bending the point  a little, but if i was to go and play with a band that has a PA, or to a gig that has a PA, i wouldn’t take an XLR cable with me unless asked. My thinking is if you have a PA you must surely have all the cables needed to use it so why would i need to bring any. Obviously with my own band the i told them all to get some, which they did, but a lot of people will naturally assume a PA comes with leads. 
It’s about communicating with those involved and sorting it out. Not everyone is a clued up as we are here, so we need to educate. 

 

I think that's very fair. Basschat, or perhaps more accurately "Bass-gear chat" would be closer to the mark, has a massive focus on kit rather than actually playing bass / improving technique. Let's be honest, 95% of BC'ers (me included) are gear nerds! That's not true of the majority of musos, so I guess it's a case of playing to our strengths and interests?

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Al Krow

[lemmywinks]

33 minutes ago, Jack said:

 

 

 

Every few weeks there's a 'do you bring a spare bass?' thread on here, and it's those people that we're dealing with here!

 

I don't understand that mentality of not having a spare, everybody knows it's just a thinly veiled ruse to buy another bass.

[TimR]

On 29/05/2024 at 17:33, Chienmortbb said:

I wonder why this is. The audience never get a real stereo experience but maybe the volume makes it more immersive?

 

The stereo image for the audience is created when they move their heads. The source may be 'mono', but the band are in front of you and reverb from the walls adds to the stereo image. 

 

If you wear headphones/IEMs and turn your head, the band 'moves' but the sound doesn't, and there's no natural reverb. You are literally separated from the surroundings.

 

Even when using backline,  the amps are in different locations on the stage. 

[Chienmortbb]

On 04/06/2024 at 14:12, TimR said:

The stereo image for the audience is created when they move their heads.

There is only one spot that is the sweet spot for the stereo image and if you are off to one side or back behind the sweet spot.

 

On 04/06/2024 at 14:12, TimR said:

 

Even when using backline,  the amps are in different locations on the stage. 

Once you get away from the stage that also reduces.

 

 

[TimR]

38 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

There is only one spot that is the sweet spot for the stereo image and if you are off to one side or back behind the sweet spot.

 

 

There's no stereo image to create a 'sweet spot'. If everything is backline and only vocals are PA, you'll get different effect wherever you stand. There won't be a stereo effect anywhere created from the PA. 

[Al Krow]

39 minutes ago, Tech21NYC said:

One thing to keep in mind with IEM's is that while they can "protect" your hearing to a certain degree if used properly they can also just as easily damage your hearing by monitoring too loudly. This happens quite easily if the stage volume overwhelms the isolation of the ear piece. Even with the custom plugs I've used over the years, 26dB and 37dB of isolation seems like more than enough isolation but the low end backwash from big PA systems will make it impossible to monitor at low levels. As you turn up the volume of your IEM's due to the sealed nature of the device you create pneumatic pressure in the ear canal that can damage your hearing. 

 

The other aspect is that while playing without an amp may be appealing for some, the band is now at the total mercy of the person mixing. The band no longer plays dynamically with one another because everyone is in their own universe. 

 

Posted on an IEM thread in amps & cabs, but the last statement certainly also provides food for thought in the context of the discussion here, so I hope you don't mind me pulling your post across to this thread?

 

But I wonder whether what you have said in the last statement is actually correct or fair?

 

Surely if you have a decent IEM set up you should be able to hear each other just as well, if not better, than with stage monitoring, so can just as easily pick up the changes in dynamics from bandmates? And in terms of being in our own universe, eye contact is just as powerful and important with IEMs as without? 

 

Edited January 2 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

Id argue you can control the dynamics better because you aren't thumping seven shades out of your instrument to hear it because if you are standing on top of you amp and all the sound waves are travelling past your knee caps as opposed to your ear drums. The mixer is the one that is generally in control of the balance of the channels in the mix as opposed to the mixing... unless they are completely fking about with some offboard/DSP.

[tauzero]

If you have an X-Air mixer with enough Aux outs for every member of the band using IEMs, they can all control their own monitor mixes, so they're in the same universe as each other but with differing mixes.

[Tech21NYC]

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. When you play with a band say drums, bass, guitars, keys etc in a room with live instruments you are (or should be) playing dynamically. If all you hear is "you" that means you are playing too loudly. A pro band should have a good stage mix among themselves before the PA system is even on. With an ampless/all instruments direct IEM mix you only know your instruments volume relationship that's in you IEM mix. You have no idea of knowing whether or not you are too loud or not loud enough in the mix. I've been to enough live shows to know when the person at the mixer is asleep at the mixer. Keyboards non existent one moment and piercingly loud the next. A guitarist that looks like he's soloing but you can barely hear it, and singers at completely different volume levels, kick drum, and bass heavy mixes with weak vocals etc. 

 

Mixing live music is probably the hardest skill to master and takes years of experience. On a local level your odds of working with a seasoned pro with hundreds to thousands of gigs under their belt are not good. The band I usually plays with is a 5 piece. Acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass, drums, keys and 4 of us sing. The acoustic and keys go direct, bass and electric guitars use amps and we use live drums. The two most inconsistent instruments are the keys and acoustic guitars. They both play direct and they both use IEM's. 

 

The tech we hire to run our PA and mix our shows works for a big sound company in NYC. He will be the first to tell you that most guys that "mix" basically set levels and don't do much else. It's pretty sad. Maybe things are better in the UK. 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Tech21NYC said:

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. When you play with a band say drums, bass, guitars, keys etc in a room with live instruments you are (or should be) playing dynamically. If all you hear is "you" that means you are playing too loudly. A pro band should have a good stage mix among themselves before the PA system is even on. With an ampless/all instruments direct IEM mix you only know your instruments volume relationship that's in you IEM mix. You have no idea of knowing whether or not you are too loud or not loud enough in the mix. I've been to enough live shows to know when the person at the mixer is asleep at the mixer. Keyboards non existent one moment and piercingly loud the next. A guitarist that looks like he's soloing but you can barely hear it, and singers at completely different volume levels, kick drum, and bass heavy mixes with weak vocals etc. 

 

Mixing live music is probably the hardest skill to master and takes years of experience. On a local level your odds of working with a seasoned pro with hundreds to thousands of gigs under their belt are not good. The band I usually plays with is a 5 piece. Acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass, drums, keys and 4 of us sing. The acoustic and keys go direct, bass and electric guitars use amps and we use live drums. The two most inconsistent instruments are the keys and acoustic guitars. They both play direct and they both use IEM's. 

 

The tech we hire to run our PA and mix our shows works for a big sound company in NYC. He will be the first to tell you that most guys that "mix" basically set levels and don't do much else. It's pretty sad. Maybe things are better in the UK. 

Sounds like you've got all this stuff sorted then. Good stuff.

[police squad]

15 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Id argue you can control the dynamics better because you aren't thumping seven shades out of your instrument to hear it because if you are standing on top of you amp and all the sound waves are travelling past your knee caps as opposed to your ear drums. The mixer is the one that is generally in control of the balance of the channels in the mix as opposed to the mixing... unless they are completely fking about with some offboard/DSP.

I agree with this. My bass playing is much better with IEM

Also I try to get the FOH sound in my ears (when I'm doing the sound, I just use the headphone socket on the desk) I cant always get that if someone else is doing the whole PA, so i try and get as balanced a sound as I can

[EBS_freak]

4 hours ago, police squad said:

Also I try to get the FOH sound in my ears (when I'm doing the sound, I just use the headphone socket on the desk) I cant always get that if someone else is doing the whole PA, so i try and get as balanced a sound as I can

Careful of this trap- mixing off the headphone jack doesn't allow for the impact of the room. The likelihood of mixing this way is your vocals will be too low in the mix where the punters are. You know when you hear desk recordings and the vocals always seem too high...? (They aren't when you account for the room)

Edited January 3 by EBS_freak

[police squad]

21 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Careful of this trap- mixing off the headphone jack doesn't allow for the impact of the room. The likelihood of mixing this way is your vocals will be too low in the mix where the punters are. You know when you hear desk recordings and the vocals always seem too high...? (They aren't when you account for the room)

what I mean is, when it's it's my desk. My keys player usually does the sound but if it is me, I do go out front and listen, then I monitor thru my IEM. It usually works a treat.

I recently noticed a lack of guitar at a gig (there were 3 of them). Had I not had my IEM I wouldn't have noticed because they all had amps on stage. When he did a solo I couldnt hear him at all. Needed a new mic lead

[Phil Starr]

On 02/01/2025 at 16:43, Tech21NYC said:

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. When you play with a band say drums, bass, guitars, keys etc in a room with live instruments you are (or should be) playing dynamically. If all you hear is "you" that means you are playing too loudly. A pro band should have a good stage mix among themselves before the PA system is even on. With an ampless/all instruments direct IEM mix you only know your instruments volume relationship that's in you IEM mix. You have no idea of knowing whether or not you are too loud or not loud enough in the mix. I've been to enough live shows to know when the person at the mixer is asleep at the mixer. Keyboards non existent one moment and piercingly loud the next. A guitarist that looks like he's soloing but you can barely hear it, and singers at completely different volume levels, kick drum, and bass heavy mixes with weak vocals etc. 

 

Mixing live music is probably the hardest skill to master and takes years of experience. On a local level your odds of working with a seasoned pro with hundreds to thousands of gigs under their belt are not good. The band I usually plays with is a 5 piece. Acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass, drums, keys and 4 of us sing. The acoustic and keys go direct, bass and electric guitars use amps and we use live drums. The two most inconsistent instruments are the keys and acoustic guitars. They both play direct and they both use IEM's. 

 

The tech we hire to run our PA and mix our shows works for a big sound company in NYC. He will be the first to tell you that most guys that "mix" basically set levels and don't do much else. It's pretty sad. Maybe things are better in the UK. 

I think all this comes down is that you can eff up any system. No good having the perfect system if the fleshy bit between the ears isn’t working.

 

Im never one to tell anyone that they have it all wrong. If the music sounds good and the audience are having a good time then there’s not much wrong. In years of mixing however I can say you can’t give all the musicians what they each want using backline only or even with floor monitors. Anything you do in one corner spills over the whole stage. You can’t have a p***ing area in a swimming pool for the same reason. Only in ears let’s you give everyone more me.

 

on a personal note thanks for sorting my sound. A SansAmp gives me a little magic to feed into the PA.

 

[Tech21NYC]

My main point is that IEM's do not have the ability to block all sound form the outside. On a very quiet stage maybe. When the outside sound (mainly low end frequencies) start to overwhelm your IEM mix you will automatically start to turn up your IEM's. IEM's seal off the ear canal and create pneumatic pressure on your ear drum. Turning up the IEM's can easily damage your hearing. Sensaphonic sells this tool so you can monitor the level of your IEM's to prevent you from unsafe levels. The problem is that if you can't hear with the IEM's at safe levels there is not much you can do. I purchased my old Sensaphonic IEM's because they are silicone and seal better than acrylic IEM's and because they also provide more isolation than other brands, at least on paper.

 

Isolation: Up to 45.5 dB; broadband average 37 dB

Noise Reduction Rating: NRR 29 dB

 

I can tell you for a fact that on a loud stage they do not block enough outside sound. Look at where they put the sound system on one of our gigs. That big stack on the end of the stage was just a few feet from my vocal mic and guitar rig. My IEM's were useless. My gripe with playing in live venues in recent years is that the sound system is typically a bigger culprit when it comes to loud volumes. I always bring ear plugs to any venue whether I'm playing or not. 

 

 

 

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, Tech21NYC said:

My gripe with playing in live venues in recent years is that the sound system is typically a bigger culprit when it comes to loud volumes. I always bring ear plugs to any venue whether I'm playing or not. 

 

No argument there - some gigs are unpleasantly loud