Silent stages - a soul-less gigging experience? (And...why don't musos provide their own kit?!)

[dave_bass5]

13 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I wonder why this is. The audience never get a real stereo experience but maybe the volume makes it more immersive?

I’d say because we listen to music in stereo when using headphones. 
At least for me, i want to hear the band as if i was listening to Spotify or Apple Music, not a beaten up old mono radio. 

[bassbiscuits]

I use IEMs for some gigs, particularly where there are a few of us singing specific backing vocals which I want to be able to hear as part of my own little mix.

 

But I wouldn't dream of not taking my amp too - I like the feel of bass through my feet and my internal organs. That's why i play bass after all.

[Phil Starr]

51 minutes ago, NikNik said:

I first experienced a silent stage back in 2018, out in Denmark. It was a festival, and as the bands rotated, this bunch of young guys (can't mind their name) and the techs wheeled in. No speakers, just Kemper profilers, and the drummer played an electric kit. From stage right, the experience was bizarre: all you could hear was the FOH, and I felt weird. The only stage noise was the drummer hitting his pads. I can't imagine playing in that environment, no air being moved.

Something we can all agree on :). My first experience was a local covers band Blue Arsed Fly. I pulled up outside the pub and you could heara decent covers band going flat out. As I came in the pub down a corridor I looked into the room and couldn't see the band. they were right next to me and the only sound was the singer and the tap of the kit from the eDrums, the quietest bit of the room. The band sounded great and plenty loud enough out front, one of the best sounds I'd heard from a pub band in quite a while. It was quite a weird experience at the time.

 

If I can take the 10 sugars analogy a bit further though it is like giving up sugar in your coffee. Not very nice at first but you get used to the taste of coffee and grow to like it, then when someone forgets and sugars your drink it tastes absolutely foul. I know @Al Krow only used the soul-less word to stimulate debate but the silent stage isn't silent for the band or the audience and the gigs go just as well as before except you can't hear the audience members who push their way onto stage to ask your rockabilly band if they do any ABBA

[dave_bass5]

I’ve seen a couple of bands with no amps on stage. One was quite a large club and it sounded really good, but when i went down the front it started to sound empty. Because all the sound was coming from left and right stage there seemed to be something missing in the middle. Not a drastic change, and I’m sure because i play in bands i was more aware of it, but i ended up going back a bit to get a better sound. 
 

I wonder if it’s even worse in smaller venues like pubs. 

[BigRedX]

I haven't done completely silent stage with IEMs yet, but I've been in two bands with no backline and electronically generated drums.

 

The problem I see with most bands in this situation is that they haven't beefed up the FoH sufficiently to compensate for the lack of acoustic drums and the rhythm section can often lack "oomph". When my current no backline band plays a new venue I make a point of telling the sound engineer that we want the drums on the backing to be the volume of a mic'd acoustic kit in that venue, and to only turn them down from this if they are having trouble getting a decent vocal mix. As a result the band always has a punchy sound FoH. It helps that the venues we play have a properly defined stage area, so the audience can't get in the "dead space" behind the main PA speakers. It will be interesting to see if the FoH changes much when we do finally stop relying on traditional foldback and go for IEMs.

[lemmywinks]

42 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

The problem I see with most bands in this situation is that they haven't beefed up the FoH sufficiently to compensate for the lack of acoustic drums and the rhythm section can often lack "oomph".

 

 

I don't understand why bands aren't using a sub or full range tops regardless of their monitoring situation or whether they put bass through the PA. It's worth getting a sub purely to make the kick drum thump like a kick drum should. Doesn't matter how expensive the drum kit is or how good the drummer is, the acoustic kit still sounds like a wet fart compared to being properly eq'd and put through a half decent sub.

[Phil Starr]

52 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

The problem I see with most bands in this situation is that they haven't beefed up the FoH sufficiently to compensate for the lack of acoustic drums and the rhythm section can often lack "oomph"

I think this is a good point. You can only do this if you start planning your bands sound from the ground up. Spending money on PA amplification rather than back line that can fill the room. Moving all your eq and tone shaping to preamps and/or to the mixer. You need different kit. Overall if you start from scratch there is a saving to be had both in financial terms and in terms of weight and portability, but the financial benefits won't apply to people who have already invested in massive backline amps or who have spent 40 years finding the perfect amp/speaker combination to do their basic tone shaping for them.

 

Silent stages have only become possible because of better tech. 600W RMS amplifiers weighing just a couple of kilograms can be built into active speakers. You were never going to do this with valve amps and in any case in the 70's the average 12" speaker would only handle 25-50W. Now you can buy a really capable active PA speaker for less than an equally capable bass or guitar stack and an 18 channel digital mixer for less than it's analogue equivalent but which also has all the eq and fx that previously would have been in a separate rack.

 

You can see why people don't want to make this change. Paying maybe £1200 for your bass amplification which you've put together over 20 years doesn't look too bad, chipping in to pay £600ea for a jointly owned PA looks problematic at a human level, especially when the life of the band might only be a few years. Not to mention the 20 years of experience you have of getting the absolute best out of your 'old' gear.

 

In terms of the 'oomph' factor though I've now done gigs with our 10" tops but with a sub and it really isn't a difficult problem to solve

[dave_bass5]

Not all bands have the capacity to carry larger than what they already have. My old band was like that. Only way we could have used a sub was for someone to buy a larger car or van. It’s not always practical to use what’s really needed. 
 I rarely see a band in a pub use a sub (i know they do. Just never see It myself). 
 

We all operate on different levels and those at the higher level sometimes have issues with seeing others do things a different way. 

[lemmywinks]

31 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Not all bands have the capacity to carry larger than what they already have. My old band was like that. Only way we could have used a sub was for someone to buy a larger car or van. It’s not always practical to use what’s really needed. 
 I rarely see a band in a pub use a sub (i know they do. Just never see It myself). 
 

We all operate on different levels and those at the higher level sometimes have issues with seeing others do things a different way. 

 

We don't have a van, in fact nobody has a big car. I think the biggest car in our band is mine, a Fiat Qubo! Most gigs now we travel in 3 cars due to all living further away from each other than we used to. Not really doing high level gigs either, we still have to work around bingo and open the box.

 

There's probably a ton of bands with medium to large PA flight cases, bulky boxes of cables/accessories and oversized tops which only ever get used for vocals, all needless bulk which takes up space and is a PITA to transport. We saved space on this stuff and can easily transport a compact active sub which one person can carry, the Thomann cable bag and G4M shallow rack bag have been great for reducing the physical size of our old kit.

Edited May 30 by lemmywinks

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

 

I don't understand why bands aren't using a sub or full range tops regardless of their monitoring situation or whether they put bass through the PA. It's worth getting a sub purely to make the kick drum thump like a kick drum should. Doesn't matter how expensive the drum kit is or how good the drummer is, the acoustic kit still sounds like a wet fart compared to being properly eq'd and put through a half decent sub.

 

And given the main beneficiary is going to be to the kick drum, should this be something for the drummer to take ownership of / invest in?

 

Obviously the whole band is going to benefit, but surely it's the same point re. any piece of kit - I wouldn't expect the rest of the band to fork out for a better keyboard for the keys player?

 

I'm currently encouraging one of our dep singers to get herself her own mic and stand, lol!

[Chienmortbb]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

'm currently encouraging one of our dep singers to get herself her own mic and stand, lol!

I wish I thought you were joking. I wish I had a £Grand for every singer that turned up with nothing more than a smile. I could by a new TE Rig 😀

Edited May 30 by Chienmortbb

[dave_bass5]

23 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

I wouldn't expect the rest of the band to fork out for a better keyboard for the keys player?

 

I would 😂😇😎

[dave_bass5]

6 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I wish I thought you were joking. I wish I had a £Grand for every singer that turned up with nothing more than a smile. I could by a new TE Rig 😀

It took me months to get my lot (backing vocalists) to bring their own mic leads. As me and the singer own the PA we used to have a large bag with all the leads in it, inc spares etc. i never had a problem letting the others use these leads. Also, because it was me they started to insist they put their instruments through the PA, mainly so i could get a good IEM mix i didn’t feel i should ask them to buy new gear to mainly benefit me. After a few gigs i noticed anything that wasn’t their own gear was just left on the stage for me and the singer to clear up. We also realised that we dont really need that large bag if we are only  our personal stuff. 
We told everyone they needed to get thier own leads and all agreed.  We did at least 3 gigs after that where someone didn’t bring enough leads. I purposely used to leave the spares in the car and pretend we didn’t have any. I felt this was the only way to ram it home that they are all grown ups and need to take responsibility. 

[lemmywinks]

35 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

And given the main beneficiary is going to be to the kick drum, should this be something for the drummer to take ownership of / invest in?

 

Obviously the whole band is going to benefit, but surely it's the same point re. any piece of kit - I wouldn't expect the rest of the band to fork out for a better keyboard for the keys player?

 

I'm currently encouraging one of our dep singers to get herself her own mic and stand, lol!

 

I can barely get our keys player to veer away from stock patches let alone buy any equipment, it's only this year he's started plugging his keyboard into the PA without any prompting. This is one of the reasons I went with the XR18 as all cables are XLR and every input/aux is labelled on the big tablet, so no more "what cable do I use?" or "where do I plug this in?" questions directed at me!

 

If you have keys, drums and bass guitar then you'll all be using the sub, the whole band benefits really as everything just sounds better.

 

It's also a good audio learning experience for drummers if they can here someone else play their kit acoustically with the desk channels muted and then with everything going FoH, hopefully they realise spending a fortune on a new snare that sounds exactly the same as the old one but even louder is a fruitless exercise. They don't, but it's a nice thing to fantasise about.

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

It took me months to get my lot (backing vocalists) to bring their own mic leads. As me and the singer own the PA we used to have a large bag with all the leads in it, inc spares etc. i never had a problem letting the others use these leads. Also, because it was me they started to insist they put their instruments through the PA, mainly so i could get a good IEM mix i didn’t feel i should ask them to buy new gear to mainly benefit me. After a few gigs i noticed anything that wasn’t their own gear was just left on the stage for me and the singer to clear up. We also realised that we dont really need that large bag if we are only  our personal stuff. 
We told everyone they needed to get thier own leads and all agreed.  We did at least 3 gigs after that where someone didn’t bring enough leads. I purposely used to leave the spares in the car and pretend we didn’t have any. I felt this was the only way to ram it home that they are all grown ups and need to take responsibility. 

 

Yeah bandmates who make use of the PA and do nothing to set it up or pack down at the end of a gig are a particular bug bear.

 

I guess I'm spoiled by our lead vox both owning a band PA and bringing it to half our gigs, and always helping to set up / pack down the PA whether it's hers or mine - @Phil Starr totally understand why you would want to steal her, haha! She said she'd keep you in mind, if she ever moves to the West Country 😊

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

I can barely get our keys player to veer away from stock patches let alone buy any equipment

Im the opposite. Im trying to get my band to play more songs where I don't need to use the usual Organ/Piano/brass and string. Maybe we should do a swap 😀

 

Even when I labbled up our XR18, gave them all cards with what goes where, they still took ages to figure it out. We use it at rehearsals as well as gigs, so we all get more time with it. Last one we had no bass in the XR18, but we could hear it. Bass player had plugged the bass in to the studio desk but his mic in to the XR18. Give me strength 😑

Edited May 30 by dave_bass5

[police squad]

It actually amazes me that singers don't own a PA of their own

or anyone else that doesn't own their own kit.

I'm probably very lucky in the fact I've played with people who are totally self sufficient. Their gear works and they have spares etc.

It's not rocket science is it?

At my age, 56, I simply wouldn't put up with it, doesn't matter how good they are

I have a decent QSC PA and for one gig a year, I bring the full rig for the benefit of the band. 3 guitarists, all miked up, Drummer brings own mics and leads. Guitarists bring their own vocal mics and leads (one even brings his own mic for his guitar too)

I'm the only one in this band that has gone IEM. For me it sounds awesome because I can hear everything perfectly. It's their loss lol

[Jack]

I own the desk, my rule has always been that everyone is responsible for getting themselves 'into' the desk. I will happily consult on di boxes, mics and cables if you don't know much about them, but you can't borrow mine. 

[dave_bass5]

4 minutes ago, Jack said:

I own the desk, my rule has always been that everyone is responsible for getting themselves 'into' the desk. I will happily consult on di boxes, mics and cables if you don't know much about them, but you can't borrow mine. 

Pretty much my stance now. To be fair the drummer has always been self contained, and tends to help set things up as he knows what he is doing, but if we are about to sound check and someone says they don’t have a mic etc, well, that’s not a ‘me’ problem anymore (and yes, its happened a few times and it’s unbelievable a grown person can act like this).

[warwickhunt]

Old story but I got tired of being the only band member who knew how or would set up the PA so I gave each band member a job, from putting stands up and speakers on to putting out the 2 floor monitors and associated leads etc.  I would do the actual sound and levels.  2 gigs in with new regime and I found the singer hadn't bothered to plug in the monitors (power and lead)... well I certainly wasn't going to so we did the whole sound check inc the obligatory "Can I have a bit more vocal in the monitor" AND gig ,with no monitor!  Nobody even noticed when we were stripping down.  Not a word of a lie but it happened at EVERY subsequent gig for about 15-20 gigs.  It was only spotted by the guitarist and when asked I just shrugged and said "That's not my job, have one of you not been doing it?".  

 

Conclusion to this fine story: you'd think would be that we'd have had a more thorough system; nope the singer decided if we'd managed without monitors then there was no point in having them... thus absolving himself of a job!  Genuine story.

[EBS_freak]

You see, I have made that mistake...

 

Ask a musician to put themselves into the PA, and they will buy the cheapest XLRs which will cut in and out with ends which get stuck in the desk sockets, the crappest DI boxes - and then look at you when nothing works. And that's assuming they actually remember to bring the gear to actually put themselves through the PA.

 

Thinking of stuff to save a gig...

 

I play through a Kemper because I know if the guitarists rig turns to 5h17, I can give my rig to them and I can go direct.

I carry round spare adapters for all sorts of things... and a soldering iron. I have been known to run an electric kit from a pedal board power supply because the drummer seemed to forget an important element of their electric kit.

I carry around spare strings for instruments I dont even play.

I carry around spare IEMs.

I carry a pair of drumsticks - which I have had to use, only for the drummer to then complain they were the wrong weight.

The amount of times the band would have been left high and dry without my ability to improvise and think my way out of issues is beyond a joke.

That's just the surface.

 

Basically, I own enough equipment and spares to be a band by myself... because people are inept. But whats worse, because they know I've got their back in all situations, they are even more complacent! 

 

The more "pro" a musician is, the more of a liability they are.

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

Old story but I got tired of being the only band member who knew how or would set up the PA so I gave each band member a job, from putting stands up and speakers on to putting out the 2 floor monitors and associated leads etc.  I would do the actual sound and levels.  2 gigs in with new regime and I found the singer hadn't bothered to plug in the monitors (power and lead)... well I certainly wasn't going to so we did the whole sound check inc the obligatory "Can I have a bit more vocal in the monitor" AND gig ,with no monitor!  Nobody even noticed when we were stripping down.  Not a word of a lie but it happened at EVERY subsequent gig for about 15-20 gigs.  It was only spotted by the guitarist and when asked I just shrugged and said "That's not my job, have one of you not been doing it?".  

 

Conclusion to this fine story: you'd think would be that we'd have had a more thorough system; nope the singer decided if we'd managed without monitors then there was no point in having them... thus absolving himself of a job!  Genuine story.

Again, can relate.

[TPJ]

36 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

 

The more "pro" a musician is, the more of a liability they are.

 

Would you like a broom with that statement?  I disagree with this. Like you, I take the boy scout attitude of "be prepared" and go to gigs with extra basses, leads, amp heads, stings etc... because I am a pro. The pros I play with are the same and cover themselves and others. We have saved each other's skins and gigs many times and enjoy doing so. I find it's those that think they are pro that don't actually behave as a pro. Yes there are exceptions,  and I'll conceded that. 

 

I've just started a big pro theatre gig and am joyous in the professionalism of the group and crew. I found it difficult to stay out of the way and not help as the crew are so competent. I just show up with my basses, pedal board, leads and IEM and off we go. Lots of great compliments from returning fans so it must be working.

 

[Phil Starr]

20 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

 

We all operate on different levels and those at the higher level sometimes have issues with seeing others do things a different way.

Completely agree with that

 

I suppose the point I was trying to make was that you need to engineer a whole system for the band. If you want to go silent stage then you won't have back line. No bass or guitar amps so even with a sub you'd actually be carrying less. It's just a different way of doing things.

 

It probaly looks like I'm advocating silent stages, I'm not. It's a different philosophy/ way of thinking and it does have advantges but it puts all responsibility on the people running the PA and it is expensive to suddenly expect everyone to change their kit. If all your band are 'expert' in a conventional backline and no-one really knows how to set up for a silent stage it's going to be a huge change and you might just want to get on with playing music. Horses for courses I guess.

 

What I will say is that it does offer better sound for the audience when done well and that all the talk of a feeling of isolation or being soul-less isn't true.

 

What I would advocate though is the use of in-ears if you have a drummer on stage and getting the sound levels down generally by putting a bit of everything through the PA for the audience. It's madness to damage you hearing by trying to stand in front of the amp that are trying to fill the room. If you want to go on performing then going deaf isn't really a good option.

 

[warwickhunt]

I think it is difficult for drummers to embrace the SS idea because trad acoustic kits have a different feel to electronic or 'flats' kits and if you maintain a full acoustic kit with no backline I think (or experienced) that it is fraught with problems.