Silent stages - a soul-less gigging experience? (And...why don't musos provide their own kit?!)

[fretmeister]

46 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

No argument there - some gigs are unpleasantly loud

 

Definitely!

 

This reminds me - I need to get my ACS plugs replaced. My ears have clearly changed shape a bit over the last few years so I need fresh impressions taken. I should really organise that before I start looking for a new band.

[Phil Starr]

On 02/01/2025 at 15:42, Al Krow said:

One thing to keep in mind with IEM's is that while they can "protect" your hearing to a certain degree if used properly they can also just as easily damage your hearing by monitoring too loudly. This happens quite easily if the stage volume overwhelms the isolation of the ear piece. Even with the custom plugs I've used over the years, 26dB and 37dB of isolation seems like more than enough isolation but the low end backwash from big PA systems will make it impossible to monitor at low levels. As you turn up the volume of your IEM's due to the sealed nature of the device you create pneumatic pressure in the ear canal that can damage your hearing

Combining this with the pic you sent of the PA set up at your recent gig makes the problem pretty clear. That's a sizable PA which could easily produce sounds well over 130db and is way too close to the musicians. If we take a median 33db of isolation that means you are still getting probably 100db sound levels getting past the in-ears. given you want the sound level from the in-ears to be audible over the spill then that's way over what is safe. We also know, and you allude to this that the isolation is frequency dependent and that low frequencies pass more easily and on top of that are radiating 360deg from the bass bins. Truly we risk drowning in the low frequency backwash. Even worse if the sound engineers are mboosting  the lowest frequencies.

 

I don't think you can do anything other than blame the PA for this. Pulling out the IEM's and replacing them with ear plugs isn't going to change the isolation either. You are still stuck with 33db of frequency dependent isolation  Moving the subs away from the stage, considering cardioid subs and using judicious eq and HPF would be more to the point.

[Al Krow]

Phil, you've somehow managed to turn a post from Tech21 into seemingly being a quote from me! That is quite a feat of sound engineering! 😅

 

Edited January 7 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

 

25 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Phil, you've somehow you've managed to turn a post from Tech21 into seemingly being a quote from me! That is quite a feat of sound engineering! 😅

Well I blame you for all the spending on things I 'need' Al, why shouldn't I blame you for other peoples thoughts 🤣😂🥰

[Al Krow]

15 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 

Well I blame you for all the spending on things I 'need' Al, why shouldn't I blame you for other peoples thoughts 🤣😂🥰

 

You're equally to blame...I mean those RCF Arya Pro 5s. I didn't even see them coming!

 

I'm not going to help you here by saying that the A&H CQ18T got "labelled" by my mate (and fellow bassplayer/BL responsible for the sound, so we have nothing to talk about when we meet up, haha) as being a desk that does everything he wanted his to do...and ended up getting it for himself for Xmas!

 

Anyway back to silent stages which we seem to somehow have gone from, to ear splitting stages! 😅

 

Edited January 7 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

How are the Ayras? Have you played bass through them yet?

[W1_Pro]

16 hours ago, Tech21NYC said:

My main point is that IEM's do not have the ability to block all sound form the outside. On a very quiet stage maybe. When the outside sound (mainly low end frequencies) start to overwhelm your IEM mix you will automatically start to turn up your IEM's. IEM's seal off the ear canal and create pneumatic pressure on your ear drum. Turning up the IEM's can easily damage your hearing. Sensaphonic sells this tool so you can monitor the level of your IEM's to prevent you from unsafe levels. The problem is that if you can't hear with the IEM's at safe levels there is not much you can do. I purchased my old Sensaphonic IEM's because they are silicone and seal better than acrylic IEM's and because they also provide more isolation than other brands, at least on paper.

 

Isolation: Up to 45.5 dB; broadband average 37 dB

Noise Reduction Rating: NRR 29 dB

 

I can tell you for a fact that on a loud stage they do not block enough outside sound. Look at where they put the sound system on one of our gigs. That big stack on the end of the stage was just a few feet from my vocal mic and guitar rig. My IEM's were useless. My gripe with playing in live venues in recent years is that the sound system is typically a bigger culprit when it comes to loud volumes. I always bring ear plugs to any venue whether I'm playing or not. 

 

 

 

I might be wrong of course,  but that skate on the corner of the stage looks like its holding three Adamson E218 subs. Thats a bloody funny place to stack subs. Also, I can't see a tower, which would be the obvious place to put top boxes. Odd....

[Al Krow]

On 07/01/2025 at 07:26, Phil Starr said:

How are the Ayras? Have you played bass through them yet?

 

They're a step up from my Creative T40s for sure. 5 string bass is ok through them, but not sure they handle the low end that well . The 5" Ayras are good enough for quieter home practice, but definitely still prefer to have one of my RCF 912As set up for putting bass through.

Decided to make use of the Anderton 30 day exchange and get the bigger 6.5" versions instead - will be arriving at the end of this week.

 

 

Edited January 8 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

5 hours ago, W1_Pro said:

I might be wrong of course,  but that skate on the corner of the stage looks like its holding three Adamson E218 subs. Thats a bloody funny place to stack subs. Also, I can't see a tower, which would be the obvious place to put top boxes. Odd....

Indeed - additionally, being a trio, I'd hope they are running cardioid to minimise back spill. But the whole PA deployment looks like a nightmare anyway.

 

[dave_bass5]

At our NYE gig, when soudchecking, I was out front and got what I thought was a nice balanced mix. Drums and backline providing FOH as it was quite a small room. Vocals nicely balanced with them. Then I noticed the PA main faders were down/off. I dont set the monitors up as I use  IEM's so I leave it to the others. The two stage monitors were so loud that the vocals could be heard right across the room. 

Crazy!!!. 

 

[EBS_freak]

Indeed, you'll be surprised how much can come out of monitors... and of course, the output from this will reflect back into open mics too...

[dave_bass5]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Indeed, you'll be surprised how much can come out of monitors... and of course, the output from this will reflect back into open mics too...

Yeah, i could see quite healthy signals in all the mic channels, even when no one was singing. Ive recently started to tun off two of the backing vocal channels so they only go to the monitors. We dont need these mics live for the whole gig, and they are hardly used. No one will miss the odd word here and there, but it does keep the FOH a bit cleaner. Of course i haven’t told the relevant singers 😇

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

At our NYE gig, when soudchecking, I was out front and got what I thought was a nice balanced mix. Drums and backline providing FOH as it was quite a small room. Vocals nicely balanced with them. Then I noticed the PA main faders were down/off. I dont set the monitors up as I use  IEM's so I leave it to the others. The two stage monitors were so loud that the vocals could be heard right across the room. 

Crazy!!!. 

 

 

Aside: how did the NYE gig go? I think you mentioned you had been looking forward to it?

[dave_bass5]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Aside: how did the NYE gig go? I think you mentioned you had been looking forward to it?

It went really well thanks. 
Highlight for me was playing Auld Lang Syne. I programmed a really cool bagpipe ensemble sound and everyone was really impressed with it. It the small things in life that make it worthwhile lol. 
Even getting back want as bad as we thought. We took our time and got back in to central london around d 3:30 am. Was surprised at how little traffic we saw on the way home. Managed to blag our way through all the road blocks to get home as well. 

[W1_Pro]

18 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Indeed - additionally, being a trio, I'd hope they are running cardioid to minimise back spill. But the whole PA deployment looks like a nightmare anyway.

 

I've not used an Adamson rig for about twenty five years- well before cardiod sub became a thing- but I think I'm correct in saying that to get subs like these to run cardiod you'd have to flip every third sub and point it backwards. This they do not appear to have done.....

[EBS_freak]

yeah, you have a rear firing sub - tbh, whoever is running PA here is kinda making a meal of it by the sub placement in the first place. 

[-asdfgh2-]

Not intentionally silent, but my first gig 30 years ago was ampless as I didn't have an amp and the promised backline was absent. "We'll put you through the monitors". That didn't actually happen and I heard not a single note that I played. It got recorded, and it was fine. Not an experience I'd want to repeat, though, but I was too inexperienced to complain about the lack of monitors.