Fattening up sound for 3 piece

[Blue_floyd20]

I play in a couple of bands, the busiest one is a 3 piece cover band. We play an unholy mix of stuff, some of the songs written originally with 5 players.

 

Volume wise I have no issues, but, I want to add an extra dynamic to my sound. I'll give you an example of a song we do that needs a little extra 'oomph' and maybe you friendly peeps can help!

 

We play 'I believe in a thing called love' by the darkness. The second guitar solo has the main riff running under it and I think it sounds a bit flat, needs a push. As you can imagine in a 3 piece, the guitarist is pretty busy anyway and volume wise you can't up the level and destroy the solo.

 

Was thinking about an octaver like the pog nano?

[Linus27]

I have thickened my sound up in the past by adding a smidge of Octave and a smidge of drive. It doesn't need much, otherwise it sounds affected but just a bit of each will thicken the sound. Its also a very common recording technique to double track the bass and leave one clean and the second with a bit of drive to make a lovely warm, thick tone. I was shown this back in the late 90's by Mark Wallis who recorded It Bites, Travis, U2, Primitives albums etc. and have recorded this way ever since. Sting also did it in the Police but he doubled up with an electric bass and a double bass. More recently, I recorded with a fretless Precision with flats and then double tracked with a fretless Jazz with rounds. Created a nice kind of cello sound. So a smidge of Octave and a smidge of drive will add a nice thickness to your tone.

[chris_b]

What bass, strings, amp and cabs are you using?

[PaulThePlug]

Some subtly applied Chorus...

[Lozz196]

Adding in a touch of drive, especially if the drive has a middier tone can help. Doesn’t need to be a total change of eq but it does make a fair difference.

[maidens97]

Subtle saturation goes a long way! EQ plays a big part also, lo and hi pass filters make a huge difference. 

[BigRedX]

More drive and more considered note choices. IME it's as much what you play as how you sound.

Edited April 19 by BigRedX

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, Linus27 said:

I have thickened my sound up in the past by adding a smidge of Octave and a smidge of drive. It doesn't need much, otherwise it sounds affected but just a bit of each will thicken the sound.

 

Its also a very common recording technique to double track the bass and leave one clean and the second with a bit of drive to make a lovely warm, thick tone. I was shown this back in the late 90's by Mark Wallis who recorded It Bites, Travis, U2, Primitives albums etc. and have recorded this way ever since. Sting also did it in the Police but he doubled up with an electric bass and a double bass. More recently, I recorded with a fretless Precision with flats and then double tracked with a fretless Jazz with rounds. Created a nice kind of cello sound. So a smidge of Octave and a smidge of drive will add a nice thickness to your tone.

 

What's the best way of getting that double track sound in a live setting? Is it easily do-able?

I'm thinking a multi fx with parallel paths may be simplest solution in terms of moving parts? Or perhaps a signal splitter back into a mini mixer?

But don't know if that's going to do much more than having a drive pedal with a good clean blend?

[Linus27]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

 

What's the best way of getting that double track sound in a live setting? Is it easily do-able?

I'm thinking a multi fx with parallel paths may be simplest solution in terms of moving parts? Or perhaps a signal splitter back into a mini mixer?

But don't know if that's going to do much more than having a drive pedal with a good clean blend?

 

To be honest I really don't know as I haven't tried, I've only ever double tracked in a studio setting but I don't think you are far wrong with what you are thinking and splitting the channel.

[pete.young]

21 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

What's the best way of getting that double track sound in a live setting? Is it easily do-able?

I

 

Pedal with a clean blend, or an LS-2 and stick the drive pedal in one of the loops?

Edited April 20 by pete.young
Don't know me LS-2 from me LM2!

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, pete.young said:

Pedal with a clean blend, or an LM2 and stick the drive pedal in one of the loops?

 

And the nice thing about the Boss LS-2 is that it has individual volume controls so you can then tailor your mix of clean and drive to suit.

Could be a neat solution for the OP in fattening his sound with minimal loss of low end?

IME low-end suck with bass drives, resulting in "less" bass in the mix is something I've often found I've had to guard against in a live mix.

[krispn]

I’m using a drive which has a clean blend and a more mid forward voice which can be great for filling out the sound.. I suppose what I’m saying is what others already have - more mids can fill the sonic space, octave can help (been messing with this myself this week on an OC2 type octave - clean blend set about 1pm, octave around 9-11 am. Some chorus could help but it depends how far you wanna go. A very very short delay can mimic doubling but that might not be as pleasing. 

 

Another thing I do is run a clean signal to FOH and I only have drive etc coming from my on stage bass amp. My preamp pedal has a DI which is running into a DG Element and the 1/4’ goes through the pedal board to the amp hitting some fx along the way after the preamp.This way the FOH gets the clean signal (running into a cab ir). I’ve gotten compliments from local sound techs for my live sound and I think it’s because the pa is clean and full and then balancing the amp with out front adds in the character - it’s basically doing the studio thing of parallel signal chain but I’m using the FOH as my clean channel and my amp for the dirt. Another bonus is I don’t have to bring two amps to my gig🤓

Edited April 19 by krispn
Speellling

[Blue_floyd20]

5 hours ago, chris_b said:

What bass, strings, amp and cabs are you using?

Yamaha BB235, Ernie ball reg. Slinky. EH bass battalion. Ashdown original head, rms112 and 115 cabs. All nice and light. The overall sound is good. I'm more looking to change the dynamic to accent certain phrases to make it sound more than the sum of its parts, but be able to switch that on and off, i.e. not Eq at the amp. I also want it to be noticeable without being disruptive.

[rOB]

There's the Fishman Fission? Gives octave up, forth below and 5th above.

 

Very lightly dialed in might be worth a thought?

 

https://youtu.be/I2XKZNMR2Pc?si=Nru8jA1-zZ2A1wxi

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Blue_floyd20 said:

Yamaha BB235, Ernie ball reg. Slinky. EH bass battalion. Ashdown original head, rms112 and 115 cabs. All nice and light. The overall sound is good. I'm more looking to change the dynamic to accent certain phrases to make it sound more than the sum of its parts, but be able to switch that on and off, i.e. not Eq at the amp. I also want it to be noticeable without being disruptive.

Well as your gear is Ashdown a solution could be their RM500 with the footswitch that adds in the valve drive and the sub harmoniser. Just adding a touch on each would add in nicely to the sound without any drastic changes.

[fretmeister]

Little bit of drive to add thickness. Dont over do it.

 

Then redo the arrangement. Thats far more important. Channel your inner Jack Bruce.

[fretmeister]

I’ve played in a lot of 3 piece bands over the last 35 years.

 

Expanding on my Jack Bruce comment… there is loads that can be done in the spirit of the original arrangement. Still follow the chord charges as before but do different things with it. 
 

So if the original just has pounding root notes you could keep the root on Beats 1 and 3 but play octaves for 2 and 4. Or Back it off and only play on 1 and 3 to leave space and give more room to build. Then in bar 3 go back to playing all the notes.

 

Depending on the song, behind a solo that builds up as it goes I’m a big fan of simplifying the original bass line for the first 2 or 4 bars, then getting back to where it was, then adding octaves, and then going to a walking bass part with octave shifts, like Jack Bruce did with Cream.

 

It’s important to approach it still as a bass line where the rhythm is the vital element. So jumping up the neck is not a solo, it’s just a higher bass line. If the guitar solo is high don’t be scared of playing the normal bass part up an octave for some of it. The kick drums are still pounding the low end so let the bass move up as the guitar does.

 

Repeating a bar in a higher octave works really well too.

 

So if you are pounding the crotchets with AAGGF#F#EE in bar one, then in bar 2 play it identically but an octave up in bar 2, then down again in 3, and then up an octave BUT also change something in bar 4. If it fits playing it in reverse keeps the structure for the rhythm but also makes it more interesting to the listener.

JS Bach wrote the best bass parts in history. Like mini tunes under the melody that elevated the main tune to greatness.  I swear Jack Bruce must have listened to his stuff!

 

Tone.

 

Something I’ve discovered over the years is that a mid heavy tone, like a P bass instead of a J tends to work better. Theres a fatness that helps fill the tone out automatically. I’ve got a massive collection of 3 piece live albums and the P bass or PJ seems to rule above all. Theres a lot of flatwound use too, if the player is a pick user.

 

John Deacon’s tone is amazing for it. Have a quick listen to the live version of One Vision live at Wembley. Theres a YT version that only shows JD’s cameras. It’s so fat! P with flats and a pick is the basic bit, but pay attention when the rest of the band have backed off a lot… the tone is actually a bit unpleasant. It’s very mid heavy and has farty drive going on. None of that ice pick Darkglass tone, it’s a wide frequency fartiness that sounds horrible on its own and fantastic in the mix. It’s quite similar to the old Cream live album in that respect.

 

I use a Catalinbread SFT pedal to get that farty drive. I never use it in the house when playing alone as it sounds horrible! 😂 But even just with drums and nothing else, something magical happens and I can’t hear fart, I can only hear fatness and harmonic richness.
 

A different approach is the dUg / Entwhistle / Sheehan split tone, mixing clean and dirt. It can sound great, but it’s also really easy to make it sound like ar$e. The issue is getting the clean portion of the tone to decay at the same rate as the driven part, and that means dialling in compression on the clean to match the natural compression of the drive. 
 

Overall though, build the band tone from the bottom. Drums first, then bass, then guitar. Then it will still sound full when the guitar is soloing. If the entire tone is built on the guitar and everything else has fit round it, then the band tone loses all weight during solos.

 

But despite all this… enjoy the space of a 3 piece! 
 

A wall of noise gets tiring for an audience. So many bands these days seem to ignore dynamics. Have quiet bits, loud bits, thick bits, thin bits etc etc. The average punter will notice that sort of variation far quicker than anything else and it will keep them interested.

 

Otis Day and the Knights had it right….” A little bit softer now, a little bit softer now…… a little bit louder now….”

 

 

Anyway, I hope that helps a bit!

[Baloney Balderdash]

Subtle reverb into drive with clean blend or drive + Boss LS-2 (or similar).

[Japhet]

I play in a 3 piece rock covers band and have 2 drive pedals on my board. Ampeg Scrambler as an always on for a bit of grit. I also have an EHX Battalion (maybe changing to a Joyo Orange Juice) for when the guitarist is soloing. That boosts the mids a little bit and fills the sound out a bit more without making it sound mushy.

[pete.young]

20 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

And the nice thing about the Boss LS-2 is that it has individual volume controls so you can then tailor your mix of clean and drive to suit.

Could be a neat solution for the OP in fattening his sound with minimal loss of low end?

IME low-end suck with bass drives, resulting in "less" bass in the mix is something I've often found I've had to guard against in a live mix.

Thanks for fixing my typo. 

 

Are there any drive pedals with a frequency cut-off, so you only get drive on the treble frequencies? Like the OC-3/OC-5 but the other way round sort of.

[krispn]

You’re into crossover so something like the Darkglass x or I saw a pedal on the bass channel on YouTube which demonstrates a similar principle 

 

 

Edited April 20 by krispn

[fretmeister]

45 minutes ago, pete.young said:

Thanks for fixing my typo. 

 

Are there any drive pedals with a frequency cut-off, so you only get drive on the treble frequencies? Like the OC-3/OC-5 but the other way round sort of.

 

I think the X Series Darkglass do that:

 

https://www.darkglass.com/creation/microtubes-x7/

 

Not sure about any others - but you could use something like the Sine C24:

 

https://sineeffect.com/C24-High-Low-Pass-filter-pedal-p595346070

 

With a Boss LS-2. So you put your drive pedal in a loop with the C24 and then cut off all the bottom from the drive with the C24. Then the clean sound on the other LS-2 loop gets full range - but with a compressor as well to match the decay rates. Takes a while to dial in, but that makes all the difference in making it sound like 1 tone rather than 2.

 

Back in the days when I had a big rack I used 2 preamps that both had clean and dirty and ended up blending those 4 sounds together. It was awesome but weighed about as much as a small car so I'm not doing that again!  

 

 

[ASW]

I was speaking to the bass player from the band The Answer once after a show they played. They had 1 guitar, bass, drums and vocals and had quite a big sound. The bass player used a delay pedal to thicken up his sound. I think it was always on and if I remember correctly, it was a very short delay (perhaps. 20-50ms) with the feedback level down to its lowest setting (i.e. giving only one repeat). It's probably worth a try along with the other suggestions.

[krispn]

I think the TC mimic pedal uses that type of thing to give the ‘doubling’ effect of double tracking guitars. 
 

I was reading that earlier post about note choice and filling out the space. I was gigging last night and wasn’t really conscious of it before but underneath solo sections I seem to play a bit more/busier on some tracks just to keep things moving along and fill stuff out more. I’m in a band with guitar drums fiddle and bass. I noticed with many tunes I’m keeping it simple on the verse just playing with the kick drum or the written bass part but in the chorus adding in the 5th’s in a ham fisted attempt to mimic rhythm guitar parts ( our guitarist is more of a singer songwriter chords guy than a rhythm/riffs guy), walking lines and then under solo sections getting busier. It does sound like the band is cooking once it’s all going off and folks were digging it. It’s one of those things where you do get youre

doing it or subconsciously do more to fill things out. I noticed it in a few tracks last night when I was busier and trying to fill out more space under solos. The fiddle player does use octave down on some songs to fill out parts. 
 

I suppose we’ve done these songs so

many times you just develop ways of playing them which play to the strengths of the line up and make them your own.

[ASW]

I also find it helps to make sure the drummer is doing their bit to fill out the sound during more intense sections of songs like the solo to the Darkness song. A few extra hits on cymbals or opening up the hi hats can make all the difference.