The final devaluation of music ? Learn about Suno,Udio and exactly what A.I. is up to - scary stuff.........

[gjones]

24 minutes ago, SumOne said:

Isn't that potentially quite exciting though? Partly, (or perhaps mostly) music is there to entertain, people don't really care about how it was made, and why should they? If AI can entertain people better than humans then perhaps that's a good thing in some ways?

 

People who enjoy making music can still entertain themselves by doing that, and I expect there will always be people that value seeing good musicians playing live. But would it really matter if AI perfectly creates, say, music for me personally when I go for a run (linked to my listening habits, age, likes, blood pressure, heart rate, the weather etc). It could basically takes music theory and pre-existing music and re-interpret it and personalise it for the listener for their enjoyment.

 

Most pop music is made by committee anyway and follows quite specific music theory, borrows ideas, re-interprets, re-packages, it's not really a personal human to human connection - just presents itself as that.

 

I went clubbing a lot in the late 90s at techno nights, the whole concept seemed to be that the music was 'faceless' and sounded like something un-earthly and futuristic - while also somehow being something that somehow has punk influence and harks back to being tribal. It was all about people dancing together. and people didn't really care who made the music, or how it was made, or the technical musicianship needed. In some ways, I think that's quite a pure form of musical enjoyment, rather than massaging the ego of someone who's spent 1000's of hours learning to play notes quickly to impress people that don't have the same skill. Perhaps AI is the logical extension of that, people enjoy the music - not the effort that went into it.

 

I hate techno for the very reason you like it.

[SumOne]

40 minutes ago, gjones said:

 

I hate techno for the very reason you like it.

 

I'm sure a lot of people do, but I feel they have missed out on something that's in some ways a bit of a deeper/communal side of music. Lots of people hate the other end of the spectrum where music seems mostly there for very skilled musicians showing off how technically proficient they are. In-between is the general thing that people appreciate good musicianship and putting a face to the music, but they don't generally care about how much practice and effort went into making the music or if the drums/bass etc were sampled or played live or made by AI. 

 

 

 

 

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, SumOne said:

Isn't that potentially quite exciting though? Partly, (or perhaps mostly) music is there to entertain, people don't really care about how it was made, and why should they? If AI can entertain people better than humans then perhaps that's a good thing in some ways?

 

People who enjoy making music can still entertain themselves by doing that, and I expect there will always be people that value seeing good musicians playing live. But would it really matter if AI perfectly creates, say, music for me personally when I go for a run (linked to my listening habits, age, likes, blood pressure, heart rate, the weather etc). It could basically takes music theory and pre-existing music and re-interpret it and personalise it for the listener for their enjoyment.

 

Most pop music is made by committee anyway and follows quite specific music theory, borrows ideas, re-interprets, re-packages, it's not really a personal human to human connection - just presents itself as that.

 

I went clubbing a lot in the late 90s at techno nights, the whole concept seemed to be that the music was 'faceless' and sounded like something un-earthly and futuristic - while also somehow being something that somehow has punk influence and harks back to being tribal. It was all about people dancing together. and people didn't really care who made the music, or how it was made, or the technical musicianship needed. In some ways, I think that's quite a pure form of musical enjoyment, rather than massaging the ego of someone who's spent 1000's of hours learning to play notes quickly to impress people that don't have the same skill. Perhaps AI is the logical extension of that, people enjoy the music - not the effort that went into it.

 

 

I'm sure we'll get to a point where music (and other art) is being generated at the mass level by AI and is a bigger part of the culture. Scary though, if you think live venues have it tough now, it'll get a lot tougher for them. Will we end up with pubs having AI backed 'bands' that can produce different sets in different genres on different nights? What opportunities will be taken away from emerging bands because AI created music is in the charts and can tour the world for a lot less money than a human? They could play multiple venues across the world on the same night. They'd be easier to manage too with a lot less worry about lawyers having to bail them out on drug charges 😂

 

From what I've heard there's one thing that holds back AI music at the minute and it's hard to explain. A few years ago I heard an AI generated song that was supposed to be along the lines of 'this is what Nirvana would be releasing if they were still around'. It sounded like a cheap imitation of Nirvana, like it was trying too hard to be Nirvana. Maybe creativity is what it lacks, but I'm sure there'll come a time when it can learn to create something new. It's both amazingly interesting and quite scary at the same time!

 

I think people not caring too much about where music comes from and the pure form of enjoyment when it comes to EDM is mostly down to the supplements taken on any given night 😂

 

 

[SumOne]

14 minutes ago, Jonesy said:

 

 

 

I think people not caring too much about where music comes from and the pure form of enjoyment when it comes to EDM is mostly down to the supplements taken on any given night 😂

 

 

 

There is a bit of that. But on a deeper level, apart from the last few hundred years, almost all musical enjoyment throughout human history would've been a similar thing of communal  dancing to repetitive rhythms (often with supplements!), and probably not caring too much about the technical proficiency of the musicians - or not particularly revering them anyway. It's probably quite a modern thing to have the 'isn't he great at playing that instrument' side of music, and partly that's an ego thing for the musician.

 

 

[diskwave]

Chk out Rick Beato he's finally unleashing the force against AI....

[diskwave]

5 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

The real world where people who write the stuff played in Tesco get produced, like now? Who is to be the arbiter of what is great?

Now youve opened a can of worms. I mean what is great music? The more I think about this the more scary it becomes. There are young people out there today who absolutely love that dirgey droney noise in Tesco.  Then there's me and Ive just had a play along to Frankie Vallies, Cant Take My Eyes Off You, cause musicaly its huge fun to play.  So what is best. The Tesco dirge or Frankie? Maybe these conversations are just not worth it...who knows?

[Pseudonym]

6 minutes ago, diskwave said:

Now youve opened a can of worms. I mean what is great music? The more I think about this the more scary it becomes. There are young people out there today who absolutely love that dirgey droney noise in Tesco.  Then there's me and Ive just had a play along to Frankie Vallies, Cant Take My Eyes Off You, cause musicaly its huge fun to play.  So what is best. The Tesco dirge or Frankie? Maybe these conversations are just not worth it...who knows?

 

On the other hand, at least Tesco changes the record from time to time. A good example to follow.

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

Here's a list of free AI's.

 

https://theresanaiforthat.com/s/free/

 

I read the "i" as "l" at first.

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, diskwave said:

Now youve opened a can of worms. I mean what is great music? The more I think about this the more scary it becomes. There are young people out there today who absolutely love that dirgey droney noise in Tesco.  Then there's me and Ive just had a play along to Frankie Vallies, Cant Take My Eyes Off You, cause musicaly its huge fun to play.  So what is best. The Tesco dirge or Frankie? Maybe these conversations are just not worth it...who knows?

 

Ah, you're actually an AI from the 1960s aren't you?

[MacDaddy]

37 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I read the "i" as "l" at first.

 

 

 

 

[asingardenof]

Time for another Nineteen Eighty-Four quote?

 

The tune had been haunting London for weeks past. It was one of countless similar songs published for the benefit of the proles by a sub-section of the Music Department. The words of these songs were composed without any human intervention whatever on an instrument known as a versificator.

[Pseudonym]

6 hours ago, asingardenof said:

Time for another Nineteen Eighty-Four quote?

 

The tune had been haunting London for weeks past. It was one of countless similar songs published for the benefit of the proles by a sub-section of the Music Department. The words of these songs were composed without any human intervention whatever on an instrument known as a versificator.

 

The technology has come a long way since Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.

[tauzero]

9 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

 

The technology has come a long way since Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.

 

Although Jools Mk I is still running with full-on boogie-woogie.

[Pseudonym]

9 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Although Jools Mk I is still running with full-on boogie-woogie.

 

The switches on 1970s technology do get stuck easily. The Sunakomatic was built in 1980, and it still thinks there is a Conservative Party that can fix the previous government's economic blunders.

[tauzero]

35 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

 

The switches on 1970s technology do get stuck easily. The Sunakomatic was built in 1980, and it still thinks there is a Conservative Party that can fix the previous government's economic blunders.

 

FTFY

[TimR]

On 26/06/2024 at 15:20, Jonesy said:

From what I've heard there's one thing that holds back AI music at the minute and it's hard to explain. A few years ago I heard an AI generated song that was supposed to be along the lines of 'this is what Nirvana would be releasing if they were still around'. It sounded like a cheap imitation of Nirvana, like it was trying too hard to be Nirvana. Maybe creativity is what it lacks, but I'm sure there'll come a time when it can learn to create something new. It's both amazingly interesting and quite scary at the same time!

 

It's not intelligent. All it can do is copy and follow instructions given to it by a programmer.

 

So far AI just uses algorythms and a massive memory archive (glorified programmable search engine).

 

It doesn't know what is good and bad. 

 

Humans don't actually know where intelligence comes from but it's characterised by an ability to solve novel problems that the entity hasn't been told how to solve.

 

Animals also exhibit this behavior, right down to bees, so the question is: to what level are animals conscious? 

 

When we take exams we are usually mainly tested on our memory. We are given problems to solve that we have already been taught what methods to use. In the old days of A-levels (I don't know if it still happens), there would be a final part to each question which was designed to test the students reasoning skills on an area of the subject that hadn't been taught.

 

So we use a mixture of emotion, memory, intelligence, and unconscious reactions to carry out everyday tasks.

 

So until the machines become sentient, they'll always be our slaves.

 

There then becomes the question of whether we should be using machines to be intelligent when humans are faster and more efficient at it than machines, and just leave the machines as AI memory aids. The humans can then take the output and apply intelligence to it. 

 

The above is paraphrased from this podcast:

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/06/24/280-francois-chollet-on-deep-learning-and-the-meaning-of-intelligence/

Edited June 29 by TimR

[MacDaddy]