The music industry and signing bands

[bumfrog]

The internet has changed everything. And it's not just because people are "nicking" stuff. I can now find out about bands local to any area in the world and most likely buy a cd directly off of them. Couldn't really do that say 10-15 years ago.

If anything, to me, it's the fact that there's now so much music available and so many ways of getting it out there, that all the tried and tested methods (charts, music shops, radio) are now having their monopoly squashed and the record industry doesn't know what to do with itself.

[matt_citizenbass]

[quote]I was of the understanding that Indie labels all pretty much died out some years ago and all thats left is the Major's who are struggling. Is this not the case. Is the indie label scene pretty strong still?[/quote]

the indie label scene is booming!

we even watched a documentary on it in media!

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='491429' date='May 18 2009, 01:53 PM']Yeah, all the smart-arses who started stealing music ten years ago and swearing blind that it wouldn't have any effect can go shove it.[/quote]
Even if that's true - it's the record companies that have created this mess by years and years overcharging. I remember when they brought in CDs - claiming if we invested in the CD player then the lower cost of producing CDs would result in cheaper albums. It didn't. Over the years prices went through the roof and helped persuade normal people that it was ok to steal music because to buy it was just crazy at the prices being charged.

£17 for a fairly mainstream album!!! I remember paying that.

Now in desperation they're operating by buying artists from smaller labels instead. Bottom feeders. Always have been, always will be.

[Musky]

[quote name='chris_b' post='491461' date='May 18 2009, 03:22 PM']Read this. It sheds some light on how the Arctic Monkeys "made it"; [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Monkeys"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Monkeys[/url][/quote]

Though that article misses out the fact that they had a PR company on board before they became a hit on myspace. Which might explain why the Arctic's said they'd never even heard of myspace.

[TenLetters]

+1 to that comment about Artic Monkeys, the joys of 'ghost PR'. Im sure that is the case with the majority of these bands who make it on their own with the 'DIY approach'. I remember that girl who used to do live web perfomances of her songs to hundreds of thousands of fans claimed that was all off her own back. Im no web expert but the artical said that the bandwidth you need to broadcast to that many people would cost thousands, which i doubt she would have but a major lable may well have. (that could all be Bull but im sure i have an artical on it somewhere)

Anyway, im sure there are those that have made it by the DIY approach, again it comes down to what you consider making it. If i can make the music i want with people i want then im happy. If people get lucky and sign to a major or feel the nee to go on TV talent shows then im not going to judge them over it but it kind of seems like seeling your soul to the devil for 5 minutes of fame to me.


Found it, how reliable it is i guess is up for debate but still.....

[url="http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/was-sandi-thoms-effortless-rise-just-too-good-to-be-true-480288.html"]http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertai...rue-480288.html[/url]

Edited May 18, 2009 by TenLetters

[ARGH]

Major what?

[Jase]

I hate the term "Made it" or "Signed to a Major" Sign my arse!

[99ster]

[quote name='chris_b' post='491461' date='May 18 2009, 03:22 PM']No.

Bands are a pain to the music business because they have to talk to, and get agreement from, several people. As a general rule the labels only want to deal with one person. If you have a singer with a good voice who writes he'll get signed and you won't. Your P45 will be in the post. But if he doesn't fit the current look or "shape" he won't get signed either.

Of course some bands do get signed but most do not!

Read this. It sheds some light on how the Arctic Monkeys "made it"; [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Monkeys"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Monkeys[/url][/quote]


+1000
I used to work in 'The Business' in a past-life. Labels have little interest in signing bands & never really have. Very, very few bands get signed as 'a band'. Many bands where it looks like the individual band members are all happily signed on equal terms are nothing of the sort. It's the song writer(s) in the band who are signed to the recording & publishing deals - & they are the only ones who ever make any real money. Everyone else is disposable.
I have a good mate who plays bass in an very famous british band (multiple platinum LP's - headlining Glastonbury, etc...) - he's very far from being poor - but compared to the millionaire lead singer/song-writer...no comparison. He only really makes decent money when they tour.

[99ster]

[quote name='ashevans09' post='491480' date='May 18 2009, 03:41 PM']Too true. A guy I know's band got offered a deal a while ago and apparently it broke down to something like this:

They give you so many thousand for equipment and recording etc as a loan
They do this with about 10 bands
Once the records are made they'll promote maybe 1 or 2 of them and do nothing for the others
They drop whoever doesn't come up with the goods

This then leaves the majority in the position of no record deal and thousands of pounds worth of debt.

Not to mention the whole idea of pay to play. I was reading an interview which said back in the day you used to pay $150K to get onto the Ozzfest tour. Crazy amount of money.

It seems it isn't worth being in a major nowadays unless you're already in a well established and big band (U2, Coldplay etc).

Bah.

That said though, does anyone have info on how the indie labels operate?[/quote]


This is an [url="http://www.negativland.com/albini.html"]infamous article by Steve Albini [/url]on the debt that can so easily pile up- makes very interesting/depressing reading...

[skankdelvar]

To be fair, the current 'DIY, shop it around' approach isn't entirely new / revolutionary. In 1968, Jimmy Page and Peter Grant put up about £2,500 of their own cash to record the first Zep album while touring the outfit as 'The New Yardbirds'.

Grant used the tapes to close a five album, £200,000 deal with Atlantic at a previously unheard of royalty rate, while retaining complete artistic control, including album covers and marketing approval. That would be about £25k and £2,056,000 today.

Either way, the old adage holds true. Find out what people want then sell it to them on [i]your[/i] terms. Long live the independent approach

Edited May 19, 2009 by skankdelvar

[99ster]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='492056' date='May 19 2009, 02:12 AM']To be fair, the current 'DIY, shop it around' approach isn't entirely new / revolutionary. In 1968, Jimmy Page and Peter Grant put up about £2,500 of their own cash to record the first Zep album while touring the outfit as 'The New Yardbirds'.

Grant used the tapes to close a five album, £200,000 deal with Atlantic at a previously unheard of royalty rate, while retaining complete artistic control, including album covers and marketing approval. That would be about £25k and £2,056,000 today.

Either way, the old adage holds true. Find out what people want then sell it to them on [i]your[/i] terms. Long live the independent approach[/quote]


One of the best/most successful examples of [url="http://www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/BUSINESS/SELFRE~1.PDF"]the DIY approach is Marillion[/url].

[Sibob]

So first off, the girl who 'got famous by doing webcasts' already had publishing and management deals in place, that afforded to do that!
Also, has anyone heard of McFly since they left Island?, no unfortunately not (and I actually mean 'unfortunately', that kid writes some good pop songs). The Majors are fundamentally massive banks that can role out their PR machines to make a hit.

The OP figures also seem to be a bit off, PR costs are around that I guess, but MOST artists won't even consider that until a label (to pay for it) is in place anyway, unless they're from rich parents.....and I know a couple of those lol.

Good albums can be made for easily a £1000-£2000, if you have a bit of savvy and know-how about you, my bands album cost £1100, start to master, and it sounds great if I do say so myself. Gallows recorded their debut for about £1000 or so and that got them a 7 figure advance from Universal for their new album.

Good videos, of television broadcast quality, can be made for under a £1000

Photoshoots cost around £100-200 with a decent photographer, but most people nowadays have, or know someone with, a decent camera and some photoshop knowledge!.

It is true that very few labels now scout out gigging artists with A&R and pump them full of money. Most of the time they're looking for a successful touring artist in their own right because they know they probably won't make any money from CD sales. Most bands who build themselves a decent fan following, from a DIY perspective, long tours etc etc, will probably go ahead and record their own album anyway, and license it to a label that wants to put it out. This is what is happening mostly with the indie labels. The majors then tend to pick off the top the artists that survive their first 1 or 2 albums on an indie.

Also I wouldn't say that the Indie's are 'flourishing' as such, they face the same problems as any major record label when it comes to maximising their revenue streams in such a difficult digital environment. But at the same time, because of their much smaller operating sizes, they are able to 'move with the times' a lot faster than the majors.

So while I agree that a band has to have a 'successful business model' to gain some industry recognition, I'm not sure that they need 15k capital to make it happen. I would probably say that the biggest costs are touring anyway, with petrol and merch etc, but again, if you're pulling in decent crowds, you're probably on an alright guarantee and so at least breaking even per show.

No-doubt i'll edit and add stuff to this!

Si

[vmaxblues]

My stepson's band has just been 'signed' by a major label, but it is a 'production' deal and they are being given £150k

I have asked him what are the terms, what's in the fine print, but have had vague answers.

Anyone out there know what a 'production' deal means?

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='vmaxblues' post='492119' date='May 19 2009, 09:14 AM']My stepson's band has just been 'signed' by a major label, but it is a 'production' deal and they are being given £150k

I have asked him what are the terms, what's in the fine print, but have had vague answers.

Anyone out there know what a 'production' deal means?[/quote]

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/management/prodp02.shtml"]see here[/url].

S.P.

[Sibob]

Not meaning to sound like a Harbinger of doom, but production deals *can be* bad times!
Not saying this one is, but I've seen some very poor ones on paper.

I assume that because a Major label is part of the production deal, that they have first dibs on the artists recording career should the production team tick all the boxes. The bad side of these deals is that even after the production company has signed over the artist to a record label for release, they still take a slice of the royalties, perhaps even past the initial album as I've seen in past agreements (one that didn't get signed I might add).
It is also sometimes the case that they have some creative control of the artists musical output and also can take cuts of other income streams such as Merchandise etc, which should really be kept wholly by the band if they can help it!

To be honest, without seeing what clauses are in the contract, not much point in assuming!

Si

Edited May 19, 2009 by Sibob

[chris_b]

[quote name='vmaxblues' post='492119' date='May 19 2009, 09:14 AM']....My stepson's band has just been 'signed' by a major label, but it is a 'production' deal and they are being given £150k. I have asked him what are the terms, what's in the fine print, but have had vague answers....[/quote]
Mmm.

So he's signed a contract and he doesn't know what it entails? That is not good! One thing is for sure....they are NOT being GIVEN anything! I would imagine, at best it is a loan and someone will have to paid it back back.

Please get the contract checked out and find out what the "small print" says!!

[Sibob]

[quote name='chris_b' post='492135' date='May 19 2009, 09:38 AM']Mmm.

So he's signed a contract and he doesn't know what it entails? That is not good! One thing is for sure....they are NOT being GIVEN anything! I would imagine, at best it is a loan and someone will have to paid it back back.

Please get the contract checked out and find out what the "small print" says!![/quote]

Again, without seeing the contract, it's difficult to assume. If the 150k works like a standard Record Label advance, then it is recoupable from the artist/album royalties and will obviously need to be paid back before the artist sees any royalty payment themselves. From that point of view it's a loan, but usually these companies write off such advances, simply because if an artist's royalties don't cover the outlay, they're not personally liable to pay the deficit.

Also, it is very unusual (read: stupid) to sign an agreement without any legal advice. Hving said that, if they've taken legal advice and signed, then they're obviously bound to the contract. If they've signed without any legal advice having been offered or given, then that has, in the past, been grounds for voiding the contract.....via the courts of course!

Si

Edited May 19, 2009 by Sibob

[chris_b]

[quote name='Sibob' post='492140' date='May 19 2009, 09:43 AM']....Again, without seeing the contract, it's difficult to assume. If the 150k works like a standard Record Label advance, then it is recoupable from the artist/album royalties and will obviously need to be paid back before the artist sees any royalty payment themselves. From that point of view it's a loan, but usually these companies write off such advances, simply because if an artist's royalties don't cover the outlay, they're not personally liable to pay the deficit....

Also, it is very unusual (read: stupid) to sign an agreement without any legal advice. Hving said that, if they've taken legal advice and signed, then they're obviously bound to the contract. If they've signed without any legal advice having been offered or given, then that has, in the past, been grounds for voiding the contract.....via the courts of course![/quote]
I know I've not seen many contracts like this but the ones I have seen have never been "written off". In my experience no one makes a present of 150K, especially in the Music Business! The signed guy (the rest of us weren't signed) in one of my bands was still playing off the advance, in instalments, 5 years later! That’s why my advice is to get this contract checked out by YOUR own lawyer before you take the money.

[Linus27]

[quote name='chris_b' post='492147' date='May 19 2009, 09:52 AM']I know I've not seen many contracts like this but the ones I have seen have never been "written off". In my experience no one makes a present of 150K, especially in the Music Business! The signed guy (the rest of us weren't signed) in one of my bands was still playing off the advance, in instalments, 5 years later! That’s why my advice is to get this contract checked out by YOUR own lawyer before you take the money.[/quote]

Have to agree with this 100%. We spent about £6000 on lawyers fees looking over our contracts. Took 3 months going back and forth ironing out all the issues. Funny thing is, we knew the contacts so well by then that 5 years down the line, we sued the record company for breach of contract and walked away scott free whilst retaining everything including £15k worth of musical equipment which was part of the advance. So it really does pay to get it checked out and know what your getting into.

[ARGH]

I think the solution is simple

Just dont sign...you dont really need to these days anyway,if people want your product then you can get it to them without all the hassles a label gives...granted a label can get you MASSIVE exposure,and pay magazines to love you,meaning the people that buy those mags like you...and sales increase....

But is it really worth it now?

[Sibob]

[quote name='chris_b' post='492147' date='May 19 2009, 09:52 AM']I know I've not seen many contracts like this but the ones I have seen have never been "written off". In my experience no one makes a present of 150K, especially in the Music Business! The signed guy (the rest of us weren't signed) in one of my bands was still playing off the advance, in instalments, 5 years later! That’s why my advice is to get this contract checked out by YOUR own lawyer before you take the money.[/quote]

Still paying from his own personal income? Or from any royalties he had coming in?
I wasn't aware that record company advances were personal loans, more 'loans' made to the "The Artist" only recoupable against royalties made from the record(s) in question!?

Si

[chris_b]

The "music business" has always relied on kids signing things they shouldn't, look at the Small Faces, Bruce Springsteen, Bay City Rollers and anyone who signed for Don Arden! Elton John had to sue Dick James Music to get back the copyright to his songs after he signed the rights away for peanuts when he started out!

I've signed contracts without advice but luckily I didn't get "burned". Being older and wiser doesn't make easy to say no to 150k though!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Sibob' post='492169' date='May 19 2009, 10:20 AM']....Still paying from his own personal income? Or from any royalties he had coming in?....[/quote]
He was paying from his personal income, such as it was. We had 2 months at Olympic Studios in Barnes making a pretty good album but the management company had overspent in every department and had to fire most of their bands. The album was never released.

Another example; The Thompson Twins' record company had a massive and very expensive party to launch one of their albums. They were surprised when they each got a bill from the record company.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='chris_b' post='492184' date='May 19 2009, 10:37 AM']He was paying from his personal income, such as it was. We had 2 months at Olympic Studios in Barnes making a pretty good album but the management company had overspent in every department and had to fire most of their bands. The album was never released.

Another example; The Thompson Twins' record company had a massive and very expensive party to launch one of their albums. They were surprised when they each got a bill from the record company.[/quote]

This is true.

I suppose one of the benefits of the so-called DIY approach is that it makes the musicians acutely aware of who is paying for what.

Anyway, f*ck business, f*ck money, f*ck all that sh*t. I'm off to play some acoustic guitar on my front porch.

[Sibob]

source: [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/soldonsong/guide/record_contract.shtml"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/soldonsong/gui..._contract.shtml[/url]

"The advance is not money that the record company is giving you. It is essentially a loan which the record company expects to recoup through record sales, royalties and licensing of your music for other uses."

source: [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/general/incomep03.shtml"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/general/incomep03.shtml[/url]

"If an act is running at a loss from their first album, the label is likely to want to keep a tight rein on things when it's time to record the next one. If it's a big loss then it's unlikely that there will even be a second album. The act will be 'released from their contract' - or dropped in less polite terms"

"It can take years for a band to recoup and see any more income from the album. In fact there are acts who have careers spanning a few albums who have never recouped at all"

source: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recording_contract#.28iv.29_Advances.2C_Royalties_and_Recording_Costs"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recording_con...Recording_Costs[/url]

"Some of the money may be "recoupable" which means that it can be earned back from record sales, some of it is money that the label is simply expected to pay out."
"The loan is paid back slowly through sales."


I would suggest that if you're friend, who was signed, is still paying his advance back out of his own pocket as opposed to his record sales, he might have been sold a bit of a craaaaaaaaaaaaaap deal!. I'd even be inclined to find out if that is legal or not.

Si

Edited May 19, 2009 by Sibob