The music industry and signing bands

[chris_b]

It was a long time ago, and all contracts are different, so I would never take the advice on these specific BBC and Wiki sites as anything other than just general info.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Linus27' post='492151' date='May 19 2009, 10:00 AM']Have to agree with this 100%. We spent about £6000 on lawyers fees looking over our contracts. Took 3 months going back and forth ironing out all the issues.[/quote]

Not in the MU? Could have saved yourself 6 grand!

It's worth the monthly sub for the £2k of free instrument insurance alone, but when you figure in to it all the free legal and contract advice I'm amazed more musicians haven't joined

[Sibob]

[quote name='chris_b' post='492373' date='May 19 2009, 02:14 PM']It was a long time ago, and all contracts are different, so I would never take the advice on these specific BBC and Wiki sites as anything other than just general info.[/quote]

Of course, absolutely 'general info'! And I agree that all contracts are different. But I'm afraid, to me at least, your friends predicament is in a world of its own. Of course I've heard of anything and everything being charged to the artist, meals, parties etc, but almost always recouped from royalties, not from the artist's own finances earned from other ventures unrelated to the contract or even to music!!!

It really does go to show that one NEEDS to thoroughly read, or have checked by an independant legal party, any and all contracts!

Si

Edited May 19, 2009 by Sibob

[teej]

I've been reading all this with some interest. All sorts of points occur to me and I'm going to have a stab at working through them. Let me say from the outset that I am a dyed-in-the-wool professional DIYer, so I'm hardly unbiased.

Surely the range of genres that is open to this major label approach is severely limited. As a double bass player (which probably counts me out anyway), aged 46 (way over the hill), working in the broadish range of blues/jazz/bluegrass/rock'n'roll/rockabilly it almost certainly isn't open to me. Does that mean I can't be professional or successful? That I can only briefly dabble as a hobby before giving up totally? Not at all, there's a thriving live scene for me to work in, and a public hungry to buy recordings of musicians like me.

There seems to be, in this thread and others, an under-current of misunderstanding concerning the exact nature of a career in music. There are many, many different paths and the signing-to-a-major-label one seems to me to be the hardest. And I don't mean 'it's too difficult, only the best can succeed, so I'm going to give up' - I mean it's probably the most illusory, and least likely to succeed. Whereas, there are plenty of people carving a career for themselves as musicians, with their own personal angle on that, and making their own path to a success that they define for themselves.

I keep reading about 'success' and 'making it' - without any real explanation of what that means. I suspect people are talking about the kind of fabulous wealth and fame that popular media would have us believe is the gold standard of happiness. I've never been fooled by that: I'm paying my mortgage and supporting my kids making music, maybe only having to work 2 days a week to do so. Spare time spent on the allotment growing organic food, reading and learning about stuff that interests me, playing with my kids. The standard of my playing is improving year on year, as are my earnings. I'm not rich, you've never heard of me, but I think I'm successful.

So perhaps I could find a small, independent label to sign to instead. Well, yes, maybe, but it's far more attractive to me to do it myself (or ourselves). We try to record an album a year, usually in a rehearsal room (it has an excellent 'dead' sound, engineers love it), with my own kit. My recordings are then professionally engineered in return for our services as session musicians. I layout the artwork in Quark Xpres and send the lot off for commercial replication. The first 500 are the most expensive, with all the set-up charges, I guess about 80p each, but subsequent runs are about 54p each. We sell them for £10, and we shift a lot, busking in major shopping centres with a generator and a pa. I doubt if a small label could sell more - or if they could, we'd still make less after they've taken their cut.

And of course we get paid properly for our bookings. More than I was offered working in a West End musical earlier this year.

All in all it's not big bucks, but that's not how I'm measuring success. A couple of gigs and a day busking is all I need to live pretty comfortably: we had home-made sushi for lunch, a chilli made with steak for dinner, and once the kids have gone to bed we'll be mixing mojitos and chilling out. And I'm looking forward to going back to work on Saturday.

[Sibob]

See the story above is very cool! Nice one Teej

The DIY ethos can serve people incredibly well, if you know what you're doing!
I think it works especially well in the roots based genres as most of the fans are completely up for supporting their community, there's an underdog mentality, and it works in the artists favour. I think a lot of the time in the rock/pop/mainstream genres, the labels and sometimes even the artists (Metallica anyone) are seen as the 'rich corporate enemy' and so people are less likely to feel loyal enough to purchase a CD over downloading illegally.

Of course measuring success is completely subjective, but when we're talking about major, or even large indie, record companies, there are very specific numbers involved! .
For the record, I myself would be very happy with the place that Teej has found himself in, anything else is a bonus

Si

[skankdelvar]

That post by Teej is about the most sensible thing I've read this year. Kudos to him.

[bumfrog]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='492889' date='May 20 2009, 01:53 AM']That post by Teej is about the most sensible thing I've read this year. Kudos to him.[/quote]

yeh, have to agree.

I often have the discussion about what people deem as being successful etc...

It's always got to me when people go "oooo, look at them, they are so successful", and when you ask them how they know they are successful you get the stock reply of "well they have a lovely house, nice car etc".... Referring only to the material possessions.

To me, the measure of somebody who is truly successful is somebody who is totally happy, regardless of the situation that they are in.

I'd much prefer to be happy and skint, then loaded and unhappy.

[Tee]

Seasick Steve. He's older and seems to be enjoying some success. Seems pretty DIY too ^_^

This is a good thread. It brings back the idea, that i always wanted to start an independent record label. I wonder how much (money) you'd need to get something like that off the ground. Any articles on that sort of thing?

Edited May 20, 2009 by Tee

[OldGit]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='492889' date='May 20 2009, 01:53 AM']That post by Teej is about the most sensible thing I've read this year. Kudos to him.[/quote]

+1

As I said at the start - define "success"
To me Teej just has and he is clearly happier than Robbie Williams with all his Major Record Company Millions.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Tee' post='493009' date='May 20 2009, 09:47 AM']Seasick Steve. He's older and seems to be enjoying some success. Seems pretty DIY too ^_^

This is a good thread. It brings back the idea, that i always wanted to start an independent record label. I wonder how much (money) you'd need to get something like that off the ground. Any articles on that sort of thing?[/quote]

How long is a piece of string?

It depends on what you want to achieve. "Many thousands" is I reckon a minimum start-up cost, unless you're planning to start a so-called bedroom label and only handle production and distribution, in which case a few hundred, a telephone, a good internet connection and a lot of time is sufficient to begin with. But the minute you want to start paying to record bands, you're looking at big costs for studio time.

[Linus27]

I guess success is based on ones own measure or expectation. For me, success in music would be to be making a living out of it. So that would have to cover my cost of living (mortage, bills etc) plus any other outlays like kids, car insurance, food etc. It's possible to have success, for example, sell a bunch of songs on Itunes and have packed out gigs, but come Monday morning, if you need to be in work for 8am working your day job then personally, thats not success, but to others, it might be. So its all based on ones own measure or expectations.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Linus27

[Tee]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='493018' date='May 20 2009, 09:56 AM']How long is a piece of string?[/quote]

Twice the distance from the centre to the end.

But yeah, i would imagine starting small. ie not paying for studio time

Edited May 20, 2009 by Tee

[bigjohn]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='493018' date='May 20 2009, 09:56 AM']How long is a piece of string?

It depends on what you want to achieve. "Many thousands" is I reckon a minimum start-up cost, unless you're planning to start a so-called bedroom label and only handle production and distribution, in which case a few hundred, a telephone, a good internet connection and a lot of time is sufficient to begin with. But the minute you want to start paying to record bands, [b]you're looking at big costs for studio time[/b].[/quote]


Unless you'd built a recording studio.

I think it could work, but you'd need the right team of people / mix of skills.

Marketing / Promo / Recording / Contacts.

You'd need all of them to be really good at what they do and be willing to work for little money in a risk / reward sort of scenario.

And then you'd need some good bands.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='493054' date='May 20 2009, 10:23 AM']Unless you'd built a recording studio.[/quote]

I priced one a while back. The least money I could do it for and still achieve a workable commercial product with it is somewhere in the region of four grand, and that's not including any of the building costs. Other specs for budget setups went up to twenty grand.

Okay, you could feasibly get a multitrack setup for under a grand, but you've have to have really pro skills to get something good out of it.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='493071' date='May 20 2009, 10:42 AM']I priced one a while back. The least money I could do it for and still achieve a workable commercial product with it is somewhere in the region of four grand, and that's not including any of the building costs. Other specs for budget setups went up to twenty grand.

Okay, you could feasibly get a multitrack setup for under a grand, but you've have to have really pro skills to get something good out of it.[/quote]


I can imagine.

In terms of getting a new label's "ball rolling", having engineer(s) and / or producer(s) on hand with really pro skills would be a necessity though, rather than high spec equipment. Although I suspect one wouldn't really come without the other.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='teej' post='492663' date='May 19 2009, 08:35 PM']There seems to be, in this thread and others, an under-current of misunderstanding concerning the exact nature of a career in music.

I'm paying my mortgage and supporting my kids making music, maybe only having to work 2 days a week to do so. Spare time spent on the allotment growing organic food, reading and learning about stuff that interests me, playing with my kids.

The standard of my playing is improving year on year, as are my earnings. I'm not rich, you've never heard of me, but I think I'm successful.

A couple of gigs and a day busking is all I need to live pretty comfortably: we had home-made sushi for lunch, a chilli made with steak for dinner, and once the kids have gone to bed we'll be mixing mojitos and chilling out. And I'm looking forward to going back to work on Saturday. [/quote]
You Sir, are the man and respect to you [as I believe the young-'uns might say]. I suspect any of us would love to do this, I know I would.

[99ster]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='492889' date='May 20 2009, 01:53 AM']That post by Teej is about the most sensible thing I've read this year. Kudos to him.[/quote]


+100 on that. Excellent post by Teej.

[teej]

[quote]It depends on what you want to achieve. "Many thousands" is I reckon a minimum start-up cost, unless you're planning to start a so-called bedroom label and only handle production and distribution, in which case a few hundred, a telephone, a good internet connection and a lot of time is sufficient to begin with. But the minute you want to start paying to record bands, you're looking at big costs for studio time.[/quote]

Hmmm. Think guerilla - location recording in a good cheap room. 2nd hand mac g5 or powerbook, firewire interface, external drive, mics etc. Not dirt cheap, but doable. Call in favours, barter, swap. But equipment is only a part of it. Maybe the least important. Branding will be essential - consistent name/logo/cover art that matches the genre(s) and intended audience. And the bands - we're back to square one, but now you're the hard-nosed industry guy seeking out the acts with good marketing skills themselves.

The task is to get started. And grow. You'll be 'underground' - like '60s garage/trash/rock'n'roll, so part of your appeal would be that you don't have a perfect (over-) produced sound. Gradually you'll get better kit.

Anyone know what set-up Richard Branson started with? If I remember right, he was selling Tubular Bells out of the back of his car. What about Sun/Chess/Stax? And early Jamaican labels? Lots of lessons there I should think.

Edited May 20, 2009 by teej

[teej]

[quote name='teej' post='493096' date='May 20 2009, 11:13 AM']Hmmm. Think guerilla - location recording in a good cheap room. 2nd hand mac g5 or powerbook, firewire interface, external drive, mics etc. Not dirt cheap, but doable.[/quote]

Come to think of it, even better might be find a good engineer with a mobile set-up. If you're in the south, how about Dave 'Chops' Wallace, top man:
[url="http://www.musicandwords.co.uk/"]http://www.musicandwords.co.uk/[/url]

[Tee]

[quote name='teej' post='493096' date='May 20 2009, 11:13 AM']Hmmm. Think guerilla - location recording in a good cheap room. 2nd hand mac g5 or powerbook, firewire interface, external drive, mics etc. Not dirt cheap, but doable. Call in favours, barter, swap. But equipment is only a part of it. Maybe the least important. Branding will be essential - consistent name/logo/cover art that matches the genre(s) and intended audience. And the bands - we're back to square one, but now you're the hard-nosed industry guy seeking out the acts with good marketing skills themselves.

The task is to get started. And grow. You'll be 'underground' - like '60s garage/trash/rock'n'roll, so part of your appeal would be that you don't have a perfect (over-) produced sound. Gradually you'll get better kit.[/quote]

Very true. We've recorded in a rehearsal room (session). Separated the amps a bit, used a Mac and admittedly some really decent mics. Sounded great to me.

My own solo material is along the lines of trashy, 60s garage rock, so it suits guerilla/home recording well and that whole DIY/independent vibe.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='493018' date='May 20 2009, 09:56 AM']How long is a piece of string?[/quote]

I do actually have a piece of string, kept specially for this purpose, so that when people ask I can tell them exactly how long it is.

Although Tee's reply will suffice

[burno70]

This is an excellent, insightful post.

I think trying to do as much as you can for yourself is a much better solution than praying for that big life changing deal. Although, whichever way you cut it, it always boils down to attracting a decent following - unfortunately for my band (too many gigs in front of too few people). (I might post a separate thread for this and see what tips I can gleam for increasing your following!)

Has anyone looked into site's like sellaband or slicethepie? For those who are not familiar these are sites were, roughly speaking, you post your music (for a nominal fee of course) and if people believe in you they can make a donation which, if you reach the magic number of followers means the site owners will arrange for your band to make an album, PR, video etc. It sounds alright in theory - but I've personally not heard of anyone "making it" via this means. And, following from earlier posts, what "making it" entails is entirely subjective anyway.

[Sibob]

Just relating back to a couple of earlier points, I bent the ear of a music business accountant friend of mine with regards to Advances and how record companies account for them, this is (a slightly reduced version) of what he said:

"[i]As far as I am concerned record companies treat advances as 'non-recoupable' which means that they cannot claw back the monies from artists in the way you describe[/i]" (paying out of your own pocket)...

"[i]At no stage do the record company attempt to get this back from the artist. Essentially the balance remains as long as the artist fails to take it to a positive figure"...[/i]

"[i]For the record company the expenses are generally written off unless they know they will recoup in which case they form part of WIP (work in progress). This is a different process to the relationship between record company and artist whereby any negative balance will remain as long as the relationship remains or the artist manages to recoup the balance."
[/i]

and probably most importantly:
"[i]The only way an artist would ever repay an advance is if in reality it was a loan, not an advance. No music lawyer would ever let his artist sign a contract whereby advances were repayable if the project failed. The advance is the record companies risk, not the artist[/i]"

I know this is just one professionals view of it, and I still stand by the statement that 'all contracts are different', but there are lines lol!. And I don't want this to seem like I'm trying to prove a point at all, this thread seems like it could be a useful resource to people, so thought I'd continue to add to the information available!

Si

Edited May 21, 2009 by Sibob

[skankdelvar]

Here's an interesting article about online sales and how the idea of the internet as a great leveller is a myth:

[url="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/13/long_tail_p2p/"]http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/13/long_tail_p2p/[/url]