Tracks, clicks, IEMs…

[Merton]

I’m sure this has been asked before and is probably covered in great detail in the IEM thread so apologies for being lazy, but it’s a fairly specific question for which I need the Basschat Hive Mind’s assistance

 

I play in a band. I play in a few actually, but the one in particular in question here is a band for an original singer/songwriter with a couple

of EPs already released and an album waiting to go. Up to now the live show has been a four piece - singer/acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass and drums, plus BVs from the guitarist and occasionally me. The recordings are more heavily orchestrated, with way more BVs, other instrumentation and extra guitar tracks etc.

 

The singer has decided that she wants to use the extra instrumentation and BVs from the recordings to fill out the live sound. A fine idea, and hardly the first time this has happened. Some of her contemporaries do similar (one even has bass on tracks but a live drummer, bit odd…).

 

But we’ve never done it before, and are totally green. The guitarist (joint songwriter and the only other band me member on all recordings) wants to make the tracks pretty comprehensive:

stereo BVs

melodic instrumentation mono

percussion instrumentation mono

click for all of us (not just drummer)

 

This means the nice and easy stereo mix of click on left, track on right sent to FOH isn’t so easy. We will need the multitracks running as separate channels. To summarise, all in all we need to give sound men the following, whilst also getting 4 separate IEM mixes for us to have click and whatever else we all want:

 

Lead vox

Acoustic

Electric

Bass

Kick, snare, overheads, toms as per stage set up on the gig

Stage left BV

Stage right BV

Stereo BV track

Mono melody instruments track

Mono percussion instrument track

 

So my question is this…:

Bearing in mind we do a fair few festival type gigs without much time between acts, how the hell do we make this easy for resident sound engineers? Edit to add.. Is it as simple as having our own mixer with all the track inputs and outs, and then ask them for 4x XLR monitor feeds for our IEMs?

Edited May 22 by Merton

[Boodang]

We use a Behringer XR18. With 6 xlr aux outputs you could create your own monitor feed for your iem’s. 
We did a gig recently with a 15 min turn around between bands and we managed it with time to spare. Admittedly not as complicated as your setup but the xr18 is very flexible. 

[Merton]

Thank you - I’m that is where my brain was heading too. Just trying to work out how we get the stage instruments into it easily when monitoring etc is already set up.m, as it would necessitate a lot of re-routing cables as far as I can work out!

 

Might be that we just have a single ear for click/tracks using the XR18 and leave the other ear open for stage/standard monitoring. Bit weird though?!

[BigRedX]

What is your playback device for the backing and clicks?

 

Unless you are planning to have sections of the songs with no live drums that need to be synchronised to the backing, the normal practice is just for the drummer to have the click and the rest of the band plays to the drummer.

 

Also IME bands using backing have a tendency to put far too much on there, just because they can which in turn gives an over-complicated and messy live sound. Being in charge of the backing playback for both bands I play in, I now have a policy of turning down anything I think is unnecessary by 1dB every time we rehearse. If I get the fader down to "0" without anyone saying anything I remove the track from the backing permanently. The thing to remember is that the recorded and live versions of songs are two different things. Just because it's on the recording don't automatically mean you need to reproduce it on stage.

 

Also IME stereo FoH isn't always a particularly good idea as only a select few members of the audience stood in the sweet spot in the middle get the full benefit. Unless you have some very obvious panning effects, I'd consider reducing everything down to mono, but if you must have stereo backing reduce the width FoH to no more than 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock pan, and during your technical rehearsals check what it sounds like with only the left and only the right channel audible to ensure that you don't have stereo effects that sound wrong with a channel missing.

[Merton]

Brilliant, thank you. That’s the sort of feedback I need the guys to see. 
 

The idea of using the tracks is mainly to keep the recorded vibes, as when we’re live as a 4 piece it tends to veer into rock territory a bit much for the singer’s liking. I’m just going with the flow and trying to help with how to make it easy! Playback device likely to be an iPad or MacBook; there are a few songs where the drums don’t appear u til halfway through hence the idea for everyone to have the click, otherwise he will be having to tap everything on the hi hats (or similar). He is likely to be the one triggering things… all these details need to be worked out in all honesty. It’s a very very new idea for us!

[Boodang]

1 hour ago, Merton said:

Thank you - I’m that is where my brain was heading too. Just trying to work out how we get the stage instruments into it easily when monitoring etc is already set up.m, as it would necessitate a lot of re-routing cables as far as I can work out!

 

Might be that we just have a single ear for click/tracks using the XR18 and leave the other ear open for stage/standard monitoring. Bit weird though?!

The routing shouldn't be too difficult. Plug all your sources direct into the desk, then you can use the routing options to make use of the six aux outputs for the foh feeds, and use the ultranet for monitoring. 

Using the ultranet requires buying the P16-M units but that does mean you get hardware control over your personal monitor mix and frees up the 6 aux outputs for dedicated foh feeds. 

[BigRedX]

Personally I wouldn't use an iPad as it IMO is too fragile for live use especially if you are going to be connecting via the Lightning or USBC connector. Also the touch screen is less than responsive to sweaty fingers.

 

I'll respond more late today when I have more time with details of the gig-hardened set-up I use.

[Franticsmurf]

4 hours ago, Merton said:

Thank you - I’m that is where my brain was heading too. Just trying to work out how we get the stage instruments into it easily when monitoring etc is already set up.m, as it would necessitate a lot of re-routing cables as far as I can work out!

 

Might be that we just have a single ear for click/tracks using the XR18 and leave the other ear open for stage/standard monitoring. Bit weird though?!

I'm using IEM from a P16M (see @Boodang above) fed from the Ultranet out of an X32. The feed is set to pre-fade so that I can create my own monitor mix independent of the main or monitor mixes from the desk. I assume the XR18 has the same ability to feed pre-fade signals into Ultranet. The P16M has connections to allow you to daisy-chain several of them from the one Ultranet feed, each unit retaining its ability to make a personal mix for monitoring.

[mike257]

If you're playing festival shows, and venues with halfway decent sound engineers, having a few channels of playback and a click to deal with should be no problem. It's extremely common these days. 

 

For a playback rig, you've got two routes - standalone hardware or laptop(s) with appropriate software and an audio interface with enough outputs for the amount of channels you want to send. 

 

Hardware is great for the simplicity and stability - it's built to do one job and generally does it well. The cons are in the faff of making changes to tracks, or rejigging setlist order etc, which involves connecting to a computer for control software, data transfer etc. Cymatic was my go-to brand, their products were rock solid and I toured them heavily, but they're no longer manufacturing and I'm not super impressed with the alternatives that are around at the moment. 

 

Software is the way most productions are going these days. You have the flexibility to edit, reorder, tweak whatever you need to, but the cons are that it's a computer so there's plenty to go wrong 🤣 If you're in Ableton world, there's a lot of good Max plugins made for smooth control of live playback (Fullfat.co do some great stuff for this) and there's plenty of ways to set up dedicated external hardware or generic midi pad controllers for live use so you're not fiddling with the mouse and space bar!

 

One mistake I've seen made is to run your playback from a full DAW session with all the plugins, processing etc active. This is asking for trouble. You want to bounce out audio files for each playback channel and not run any processing/plugins on them in a live environment for stability purposes. 

 

Ableton is the most commonly used software for this. qLab (Mac only) is great too and very stable. They'd be my first choices for running multitrack live audio. 

 

Other things I'd suggest for preparing your stems - on the Click channel, add the name of the song spoken to the top of each track, so everyone gets an audible cue of what's been fired. That way, the day that someone screws up and plays the wrong one, or you misread your setlist, you don't start playing the wrong thing!  Other cues can be useful too, and I'll often have this as a separate line from the playback rig, but sometimes see it mixed in the click channel. If you've got sections where instrumentation is sparse, I'll also add simple piano/synth chords in the cues track as a pitching reference for singers if there's not much else happening for them to go off. 

 

One thing I wish all bands would also do is a line check track - have a "song" that you can run in line checks that just speaks the name of each channel. As a monitor engineer at a festival who might not be familiar with what your tracks sound like, if I can just solo each line in my IEMs and hear a voice saying "click, cues, BV Left, BV Right" etc, I've got absolute certainty that the patch is correct and I have all of your lines in the right place. 

 

As far as an audio interface goes, anything with the right amount of outputs will do the job, but if you have something that outputs at balanced line level, you won't need DI boxes on the end of it. I'd always have your own loom (clearly labelled) with XLR ends so it can be patched straight in too. Nothing worse than someone rocking up with a 12 channel playback rig with no DI boxes and no cables and expecting you to make it happen in a 30 min changeover! 

 

The best shout for an interface would be the iConnectivity PlayAudio series. You can actually connect two synchronised laptops to it running a main and backup and it'll detect if one stops playing and automatically switch audio over to the spare, pretty much seamlessly. This is what I see in most touring rigs these days and is probably the most cost effective route to a robust, tour-ready setup. 

 

Total stream-of-conciousness brain dump there but hope it helps!

Edited May 23 by mike257

[woodyratm]

We use backing tracks for synths and vocal weirdness live - we went for a solution on a budget. 
 

I’m running a quad cortex, 1 output to FOH, 1 output into our audio interface. 
Guitar uses a line 6 native (or Fractal FM3 if he’s kept it… same setup as me)

vocals (x2) are plugged into a splitter box and into the interface. 
 

We have DIs in our rack for FOH synth, and we mix our IEM mix in ableton and into a budget IEM rig. We can’t have our own mixes, but we’re playing small local original shows so it’s a compromise. 
 

Means we get vocals, bass, guitar, synths and click into our in ears and we don’t need to worry about a sound engineer/venue buggering our mixes (which happened previously - venues cabling was dodge). Drums are literally 2m away from us so we can still hear/feel them! 
 

Cost was much lower than if we were to rock the Behringer mixers. And it fits into a 2u case. 
 

Midi controlling all fx changes on guitar and bass, tracks controlled by FM3 or the QC.

 

We did previously use a 4u. Can see it in this wee vid. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrVLc3BIlHY/?igsh=bHhmZDI3aHVlcnNz
 

Working a silent stage now too.

Edited May 23 by woodyratm

[Merton]

Brilliant. Thanks everyone! Much food for thought

[BigRedX]

Here's my gig-hardened playback system:

 

 

This is the current evolution of about 20 years of using computers for gigging. Everything fits in a 3U rack case with removable front and top. All the connections are made at the patch panel at front of the rack. It might not look as neat but it's much easier than trying to find the correct sockets at the back on a darkened stage with only 10 minutes to set up and line check before you play.

 

The laptop is a 2012 MacPro with an SSD and 16GB RAM. It has been completely rock-solid in the 7 years I've been using it for backing playback. I use Logic Pro X (again without problems although I only run a single 3rd party plug-in and the track and plug-in count is kept to a minimum - usually 1 reverb and a couple of compressors) running a mixture of MIDI and audio. It runs under its own login that is just for live playback with WiFi and Bluetooth disabled. Interface is a Focusrite which is completely overkill in terms of I/O for our needs, however it was chosen because it is properly rack mountable in a 1U space. Before that I had a "half rack" sized interface that was impossible to secure properly in the rack and as a consequence wasn't always reliable. It provides a balanced line outputs for the PA, but we also run this through an ART DTI box first (hidden inside the rack) which completely isolates the interface from the PA feed preventing ground loops and will protect the interface should anything nasty be inadvertently be sent to it. If you are doing serious level gigs I would suggest that you invest in one of these for every stereo feed you want to send to the PA.

 

As far as possible all the connections to the outside world are made via XLR cables. The patch panel left to right is as follows:

Channels 3 & 4 XLR inputs. These have never been used and will probably be removed if I ever need to add more front panel outputs.

Channels 1 & 2 XLR outputs. Via the ART DTI box. These are the outputs we normally use to connect to the PA.

Channels 1 & 2 Jack outputs. Via the ART DTI box. Occasionally we encounter a sound engineer who insists on using their own DI boxes. In that case we connect to these.

Channel 3 XLR output. This provides a click track for the drummer

Channel 4 XLR output (added since this photo was taken). This provides a backing track mix for the drummer.

MIDI Out XLR. We use MIDI to automate patch changes for the live instruments and effects.

USB output. I try as far a possible not to use computer-grade connectors in a gigging environment, but this one is a necessary evil which allows me to control the backing from an Elgato Stream Deck pedal. The alternative would be something that connects wirelessly which IMO is even less reliable. I carry 2 spare USB cables and the system can run without the footswitch if absolutely necessary - it's just not as convenient and the rack can't be positioned off-stage in that case. All USB cables inside the rack are cable-tied and hot-glued in place.

Powercon connector for mains power to the rack. This splits two ways inside the rack to provide power for the laptop and interface.

 

The Elgato Stream Deck pedal provides all the playback functions we need live. The large middle pedal is start/pause for the playback. The right pedal triggers a macro which closes the current song and loads the next one from the Finder. The songs all have a number at the front of the song name and changing the set order is done by simply renumbering the songs. The left pedal toggles the loop function in Logic on and off which allows us to extend a selected part of a song if required.

 

The whole system takes less than 5 minutes to set up on stage which includes all the MIDI connections, and has proved far more reliable than the majority of other systems I see bands on the same bill as mine using. I know of at least one other band who, having seen this, have subsequently produced their own version of it.

 

Because it's controlled via MIDI having the Helix on stage is a bit redundant, but it serves two very important functions. Firstly because each song has its own named Preset it serves as an automated setlist. Secondly it is set up to receive MIDI sync for delays and other time-based effects the LED on the tap-tempo footswitch changes from red to blue when receiving the sync signal which gives me a visual indication that the backing is running without needing to be able to see the computer screen. We did try running dispensing with the Helix hardware and running Helix Native on the laptop, but it massively increased the load time for each song which made it a bit impractical for quick song changes. At the moment the current load time is less than it takes for the applause to die down after we finish the previous song, so we can give the impression of going seamlessly form one song to the next.  Maybe when I upgrade to an Apple Silicon laptop we'll have another look.

 

HTH.

Edited May 24 by BigRedX

[MichaelDean]

Just to add my two pennies... Lots of the Focusrite stuff also allows you to do direct, latency free, monitoring. You can also use a few XLR splitters for guitars, vocals & drums and run cables for everything you need, while leaving most stuff in place for the sound guy.

 

In an old band, we used a laptop running Ableton looping the guitar live, then into a big Focusrite like this and a Behringer thing like this connected via ADAT, which also worked in the direct monitoring software (which I think was called Mix Control, but is now Focusrite Control) to give us more ins and outs. That then lets you save your individual mixes and also gives you the opportunity to group outputs for stereo mixes if you want it (and you do...).

 

We were running:

Guitar

Bass

Vocals

Keys

Kick

Snare

Stereo overheads

Cello

 

This set up allowed us to have 5 separate IEM mixes and the sound guy had everything as normal.

 

You'll need lots of XLRs and set up is going to take longer. But the rewards are great. Consistent, accurate monitoring is amazing. We used to be able to get set up in standard changeover times, with the guitarist checking that his midi controller was working too.

 

I like @BigRedX's patch bay too. Label it and make it idiot proof, so everyone knows exactly what to plug in and where.

 

A detailed tech spec will also be useful for sound guys.