Need a new cab

[Finbar]

I don't really like doing these, as I usually find the best thing to do is just go and experiment! This one is kind of hard to just experiment with though.

To explain:

I currently have a big pedalboard and a power/pre setup, running both channels bridged into a Schroeder 1212L. This sounds pretty good. But when am I ever happy? ;p

So I am going to run a crossover before my pedals, split the signal to highs and lows. Highs through my pedalboard, into my amp and 1212L, and lows bypassing the pedals and through an Aguilar Tonehammer to the same power amp, and into a second cab.

That'll give me tone shaping for both channels, as well as independent volume control.

But when it comes down to it, I'm not sure what cab to buy for the low end. I've been putting together little bits and pieces for the setup for a while now, and the next purchase is the cab. I love the sound of my Ampeg pre into the Schroeder, so that combination is definitely staying.

Initially I was going to buy a second 1212L. I love the look of that kind of mini stack - it'd all match and be sexy, and the footprints would be the same (sadly, I'm very much about aesthetics as much as anything else - bear that in mind). But I know the 1212L isn't exactly a low end monster, from experience. And if all its going to be fed is sub 150Hz bass, then that isn't the best idea in the world.

I looked at Alex's cabs, and they don't seem bad for what I want to do, but none of them run at 4 ohms, and while they seem like they'd shi[size=2]t[/size] low end for breakfast, I don't need all the crossover gubbins inside them. Also, I'm really put off by the fact that the footprints wouldn't match. Unless Alex does custom orders. Which I'm willing to be corrected on, but don't think he does.

So any ideas? I'm looking at something compact (similar size/weight to the 1212L really), and also 4 ohms as I want to run it with my 4 ohm Schroeder using my power amp. Oh yeah - my power amp will put out 375W a side at that impedance - reckon that'll be enough? I'm used to the full 1200 through one cab, and never REALLY had to push it. I know watts aren't everything, but that does look like a biggish drop in volume on paper, to me. Just needs to be able to faithfully reproduce a tight and strong low end well, to give me a bit of full body behind the grinding top end I still don't think the 1212L would do a BAD job. But something else might do it better that has slipped under my radar!

Edited May 20, 2009 by Finbar

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Finbar' post='493803' date='May 20 2009, 11:01 PM']I don't really like doing these, as I usually find the best thing to do is just go and experiment! This one is kind of hard to just experiment with though.

To explain:

I currently have a big pedalboard and a power/pre setup, running both channels bridged into a Schroeder 1212L. This sounds pretty good. But when am I ever happy? ;p

So I am going to run a crossover before my pedals, split the signal to highs and lows. Highs through my pedalboard, into my amp and 1212L, and lows bypassing the pedals and through an Aguilar Tonehammer to the same power amp, and into a second cab.

That'll give me tone shaping for both channels, as well as independent volume control.

But when it comes down to it, I'm not sure what cab to buy for the low end. I've been putting together little bits and pieces for the setup for a while now, and the next purchase is the cab. I love the sound of my Ampeg pre into the Schroeder, so that combination is definitely staying.

Initially I was going to buy a second 1212L. I love the look of that kind of mini stack - it'd all match and be sexy, and the footprints would be the same (sadly, I'm very much about aesthetics as much as anything else - bear that in mind). But I know the 1212L isn't exactly a low end monster, from experience. And if all its going to be fed is sub 150Hz bass, then that isn't the best idea in the world.

I looked at Alex's cabs, and they don't seem bad for what I want to do, but none of them run at 4 ohms, and while they seem like they'd shi[size=2]t[/size] low end for breakfast, I don't need all the crossover gubbins inside them. Also, I'm really put off by the fact that the footprints wouldn't match. Unless Alex does custom orders. Which I'm willing to be corrected on, but don't think he does.

So any ideas? I'm looking at something compact (similar size/weight to the 1212L really), and also 4 ohms as I want to run it with my 4 ohm Schroeder using my power amp. Oh yeah - my power amp will put out 375W a side at that impedance - reckon that'll be enough? I'm used to the full 1200 through one cab, and never REALLY had to push it. I know watts aren't everything, but that does look like a biggish drop in volume on paper, to me. Just needs to be able to faithfully reproduce a tight and strong low end well, to give me a bit of full body behind the grinding top end I still don't think the 1212L would do a BAD job. But something else might do it better that has slipped under my radar![/quote]

Out of interest....you using just the 1 1212L and its coping against a full band?

[Finbar]

Admirably. More than enough.

If you're just wondering if 1 2x12 can cope with a full band, then you have no need to worry at all. Give it a decent powered head, and it'll be absolutely fine.

[Mr. Foxen]

Claber's Big Sub? All the low end, none of the crossover gubbins.

Or get a horn loaded sub, since you won't be missing out onthe highes and mids the horn loses, so super efficient.

[alexclaber]

If you want a cab to produce big bottom that will keep up with the midrange from your Schroeder it'll need to be really big - like the size of my Vintage. The 1212L pretty much cuts off at 80Hz, so to get a worthwhile amount of extra bottom you'll want another octave. Unfortunately to get equal sensitivity that'll require a cab that is eight (yes, 8) times as large.

You can get round this by using a cab with lower sensitivity that can handle a lot of power, like the Big Sub. But then you need more power to push it. So how about this as an alternate plan? Add the Big Sub and bridge your power amp into it. Get a low powered head/amp to push the 1212L (it really doesn't need much power if you're not asking it to produce lows).

Alex

[Finbar]

Hmm. The idea was to keep it compact and neat, so all to one 3u amp/rack, and two small cabs. So I'm not sure I really want to get into actually using a second head for it.

This may require some thinking. As I don't really want to have to have a massive cab. When I say it needs to keep up with the Schroeder - I don't really push the Schroeder at all. So it needs to keep up with the Schroeder in relative terms, if that makes sense.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Finbar

[Bigwan]

Is there no way you can split your signal, treat the 2 halves signals differently and then blend them together again before the amp?

Or add another 1212L, run one 'clean' and one 'dirty'. You're obviously happy with what the 1212L can do, and you don't seem to need any more than you have, you just want more tonal options.

Or is it just GAS?

[dannybuoy]

Also, if you're only sending lows into the tone hammer, you're kind of wasting all the tone shaping options it provides. Maybe it would be better to have 2 full range cabs, or if you're not really pushing the Schroeder and don't need full on <80Hz sub bass, just blend a clean signal into the one amp.

[Finbar]

Well the idea originally stemmed from splitting the signal just with a splitter, and using two 1212Ls with a full range signal to each. One would be clean, and one dirty, just like you suggested Bigwan. I may yet do this. It just expanded slightly to a plan using a crossover instead of a splitter. I will probably experiment with both to be honest.

[alexclaber]

From some quick simulations it looks like a Big Sub will match a 1212L in voltage sensitivity ([email protected]@1m) at about 75Hz and then as you head downwards the Big Sub gets louder and louder until it's a good 6dB louder at 50Hz. Could certainly do one without any crossover gubbins but can't do it in a non-standard width. Could put feet on the side though so could lay it flat and put the Schroeder on top.

Alex

[Finbar]

What would the width be if it was laid flat?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Finbar' post='495428' date='May 22 2009, 06:00 PM']What would the width be if it was laid flat?[/quote]

About 30" or 765mm. Like a medium sized boulder.

Alex

[Finbar]

Huge, then? ;P

Edited May 22, 2009 by Finbar

[Finbar]

Incase anyone is interested, I did a couple of dry runs with various cabs, and I think for me the best sound is with two full range signals, not split with a crossover. It isn't space effective, it isn't cheap, it isn't efficient. But damn, it sounds killer.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Finbar' post='495446' date='May 22 2009, 06:11 PM']Huge, then? ;P[/quote]

'tis a man-sized cab!

I need to hit the Big One with some serious effects, I think it could be a crushing beast with all those weird textures blasting loud and clear through the midrange driver. My Acmes liked effects but at silly SPL it sometimes got a bit too much for the midrange system to handle, hence my hunt for something even more potent.

Alex

[cheddatom]

I just noticed this thread and thought i'd share my experience....

I've always used lots of pedals and distortion. I always thought what I needed was one amp for clean, and one for my pedals. One day I actually got to try it, and it was awful. So, I tried running the full range of my pedalboard, blended with a small amount of clean, all into a large full range bi-amp rig. That sounded amazing.

So, perhaps a bi-amp rig will get you the sound you want, but I would do your crossover after your pedals.

From the above I assume you've just got the full range of your board into the full range of 2 amps, which will no doubt sound massive. Nice!

[Finbar]

I think I'm going to be doing one clean, and one with pedals. I actually did this recently with a Peavey Triple X for the dirty channel, and my god it sounded beautiful But some pedals will be before the split, and some after. Whammy would sound daft just running through one cab, for example.

What I may yet do is try out some different preamps for the dirty channel too. Currently running an Ampeg SVP Pro, but I wouldn't mind something with just a little more filth.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Finbar

[alexclaber]

You know what would be rather cool - a 2x12" or 2x15" with the speakers wired to separate input jacks so you can run separate amps to each woofer.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Finbar' post='494720' date='May 21 2009, 05:22 PM']Hmm. The idea was to keep it compact and neat, so all to one 3u amp/rack, and two small cabs.[/quote]
Not going to happen. Going down one octave doubles the power requirement and requires a speaker that can both handle the power and deliver the response. It won't be compact.

[Kongo]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='500017' date='May 28 2009, 04:38 PM']You know what would be rather cool - a 2x12" or 2x15" with the speakers wired to separate input jacks so you can run separate amps to each woofer.

Alex[/quote]

Now THAT is an idea worth working on!
You can have dual channel heads...why not dual channel cabs?
LOL imagine a 4x10 with channels for the top and bottom 2 so you can fire a fair ammount of highs into the top 2 and normal sound to the bottom 2.

You could even do the dual channel distortion / clean thing too (I think that's what this thread was saying too).

I think you should try this on a Barefaced cab as a prototype.
You seem to be doing things very differently from anyone else so why not?
I still would love to test one of your cabs one day...just due to time preassure with my band I couldn't wait out...Love the thought of the Big One still.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Kongo' post='500077' date='May 28 2009, 05:29 PM']Now THAT is an idea worth working on!
You can have dual channel heads...why not dual channel cabs?
LOL imagine a 4x10 with channels for the top and bottom 2 so you can fire a fair ammount of highs into the top 2 and normal sound to the bottom 2.

You could even do the dual channel distortion / clean thing too (I think that's what this thread was saying too).

I think you should try this on a Barefaced cab as a prototype.
You seem to be doing things very differently from anyone else so why not?
I still would love to test one of your cabs one day...just due to time preassure with my band I couldn't wait out...Love the thought of the Big One still. [/quote]

Ampeg 8x10 already have a stereo option, some at least. Rewired my 8x10 as a pair of 4x10s as my old valve head only goes down to 8 ohm.

Claber, if you did a split Vintage, would you have to put the speakers in seperate chambers?