PA systems

[Deep Thought]

Our 'fifth Beatle' or fourth Missile Man, a DJ who lends us his PA, hasn't in any way started denying us its use, and is as helpful as ever. However he has changed his tune from 'use mine whenever you like, and I'll be offended if you even think of buying your own' to not sounding at all put out when I mentioned we were thinking of buying our own the other day. This makes us think it's about time we started thinking seriously about getting our own.
We're not exactly overburdened with gigs or money, and the system we've been using is a 400Watt Peavey with a couple of all in one speakers and a pair of floor monitors. It's done us fine so far for pub gigs, and we're probably looking at a similar setup to buy. We only use it for vocals, we don't put anything through it. I'm the singer, and I'll probably end up storing and transporting it, and I only just manage to fit it all in with my bass kit at the moment, so we don't want much more. Any recommendations for manufacturers, outlets or things to avoid? I like Peavey stuff, especially the older kit, but anybody else have any others they like?

[The_D]

[quote name='Deep Thought' post='493874' date='May 21 2009, 12:49 AM']Our 'fifth Beatle' or fourth Missile Man, a DJ who lends us his PA, hasn't in any way started denying us its use, and is as helpful as ever. However he has changed his tune from 'use mine whenever you like, and I'll be offended if you even think of buying your own' to not sounding at all put out when I mentioned we were thinking of buying our own the other day. This makes us think it's about time we started thinking seriously about getting our own.
We're not exactly overburdened with gigs or money, and the system we've been using is a 400Watt Peavey with a couple of all in one speakers and a pair of floor monitors. It's done us fine so far for pub gigs, and we're probably looking at a similar setup to buy. We only use it for vocals, we don't put anything through it. I'm the singer, and I'll probably end up storing and transporting it, and I only just manage to fit it all in with my bass kit at the moment, so we don't want much more. Any recommendations for manufacturers, outlets or things to avoid? I like Peavey stuff, especially the older kit, but anybody else have any others they like?[/quote]

We use 2 powered 250W Peavey speakers and a B**ringer mixing desk.

We only really play small to medium pub gigs but its more than we need and we run 2 mics off it. Same scenario as you in that we dont mic anything else.

Had a quick look on thoman and cant find the same ones we use but I remember them being about £200+ each and the mixer was the Guitard's so cant even guess at that.
Could probably upgrade but if it aint broke, dont fix it. I see a lot of Pub bands really over doing the PA to the point where it makes the sound check and set up way longer than it has to be.

Edited May 21, 2009 by The_D

[WinterMute]

We have a Nexo rig at the Uni for the big stuff, 4 bins and a bunch of the small units for mid/hf FoH and monitors, got Allen and Grief desks.

We have a stack of the self powered JBL full range cabs and some subs with Mackie desks for the smaller gigs.

I have my eye on a flown Turbosound Flex array for the new theatre, but I need someone to give me £40K first!

[crez5150]

My band have just got a sponsorship deal with a K-Array [url="http://www.k-array.com/?page=Red_line"]KR200 system[/url], not cheap but extremely compact and loud as hell!!!!!

Edited May 21, 2009 by crez5150

[teej]

Yamaha Stagepas 500 - 2 cabinets with recesses built into the back: one contains the amp, the other has a lid and can contain all the cables. Small enough and light enough to carry one in each hand, and loud enough for us - but we're not loud. We put vocals, double bass, and sometimes a feed from the guitar amp into it. You might want to add monitors, but we just position it behind us, never had any feedback.

[xzodar]

I'm a fan of Mackie stuff and pretty much exclusively use their speakers. It's not the best, but it's certianly not the worst and I've been running most of my kit for the last 4 years or so with absolutely no issues.

For my pub band vocal rig we're using a couple of SRM350's (200W each) and another 350 as a floor monitor from a small 6 channel mixer and it's absolutely fine.

Bigger gigs require SRM450's with 1501 Subs or for really big gigs I wheel out the 1232's but for pub's that's all way over the top.

A pair of 350's can be bought second hand for under £300 YMMV etc.

Cheers

Pete

Edited May 21, 2009 by xzodar

[Rich]

[quote name='crez5150' post='493892' date='May 21 2009, 01:27 AM']My band have just got a sponsorship deal with a K-Array [url="http://www.k-array.com/?page=Red_line"]KR200 system[/url], not cheap but extremely compact and loud as hell!!!!![/quote]
I can confirm the compactness and general loudity of said PA. It's barely noticeable compared to traditional PA stacks.

Our frontman has built up a substantial and very effective PA using EON-style active cabs. He has quite a range of subs and full-range ones, so he can do anything from one cab a side for vocals to a full-on 6k rig (and of course they work v.well as monitors too). If you can stretch to them, the powered cabs are a very good route to take.

[alexclaber]

I shall be following this with great interest! Intially I'm working on a lightweight 3-way PA main that should be potent enough to handle the whole mix for smaller gigs without subs and still have solid bottom.

Be interesting to find out how many bands own their own PA, how large it is, and what it cost!

Alex

[JackLondon]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='493928' date='May 21 2009, 08:25 AM']I shall be following this with great interest! Intially I'm working on a lightweight 3-way PA main that should be potent enough to handle the whole mix for smaller gigs without subs and still have solid bottom.

Be interesting to find out how many bands own their own PA, how large it is, and what it cost!

Alex[/quote]

I would imagine that 2 Compacts would pretty much cover anything up to the size of O2 arena

[john_the_bass]

We had a feckin huge 8k rig - 2 tops, 2 mids, 2 bottoms, 3 amps, crossovers, EQs - the rack case took 3 big blokes to lift it out of the van, which we didn't own, so it made carting it around a pain in the arse.

We pretty much only require a vocal PA most of the time and bought a pair of RCF 722A powered speakers - 750w each, with 500w to the 12" and 250w to the 2.5" compression driver. The clarity is fantastic and they are proper full range speakers too it seems and only 18kg each.

[OldGit]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='493928' date='May 21 2009, 08:25 AM']I shall be following this with great interest! Intially I'm working on a lightweight 3-way PA main that should be potent enough to handle the whole mix for smaller gigs without subs and still have solid bottom.

Be interesting to find out how many bands own their own PA, how large it is, and what it cost!

Alex[/quote]

I'm particularly interested in your plans for effective powered monitors, Alex, especially if they can be used as small gig FoH as well as floor wedges.
If you can replicate the formula you have for bass cabs - i.e. much smaller and lighter but just as loud and clear, then they will be winners.

But until then.....
The Mackie350 x 3 plus Mackie minimixer sounds is a very good and affordable solution.
Mackie have released a Version 2 of the 350 so the older ones will be coming up for very reasonable money on eBay.

[stingrayfan]

If you can avoid buying/owning/being responsible for the PA, do so! I find it the fact I have to cart it about the worst bit about gigging. Our set up is pretty small but life would be so much easier if I didn't have the wretched PA to deal with. Once it's yours, there's no shaking the thing off!

That said, our set up works well. Two powered [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=ALTPS4LA&seeimage=YES&img_name=PS4HA"]Alto PS4[/url] cabs and a small [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BEHXX1204FX&browsemode=category"]Behringer[/url] mixer with FX built in. Don't forget to budget for cables (you'll need more than you think), power leads, etc etc. We each own [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=CARSS4200&browsemode=category"]Carlsbro powered monitors[/url] too which are expensive for what they are but do the job.

Edit: good quality powered cabs like the Altos or Mackies are defo the way to go for clear vocals. We A/B'd the Altos against Peavey, Wharfedale and couple of other brands and the Altos were in a different league. They sound more like hi-fi speakers.

Edited May 21, 2009 by stingrayfan

[Mr Fudge]

Im no expert but we have some great kit that has took a few years to acquire and a few quid but does the job whether we are in a town hall or down the local. We have a Dynacord powered desk which is excellent. Digital effects, mutes and other fool proof toys. We have 2 large EV tops and for bigger gigs run a couple of powered Wharfdale bins. Through this we put 4 vocals, 3 keys, 2 acoustics and an electronic drum kit. The thing has been worth its weight in Gold and we often get compliments about the clarity of our sound. Lots of headroom (with the bottoms I imagine about 2K) and not being overly loud because of an electric kit and not having to compete with an acoustic one has probably payed dividends.

To be honest though a good vocal PA and clear vocals is probably the most important thing starting out.

[nottswarwick]

I am thinking about changing all my gear over.

Currently we use 2 subs and 2 tops for FOH - (custom built with Rcf and JBL drivers - very good if a little tatty, andhuge), powered by QSC RMX 2450 amps, and 4 thoman monitors powered by some crest or other.

But is is all massive and the amp rack is as heavy as me with crossover and effects in it.

Desk is an Allen and Heath GL 2400 24 channel. LExicon effects rack unit.

However, I am fed up with the size and weight of it, so am toying with changing the desk for a Allen and Heath Mixwizard 16:2, which is just about big enough, effects in it, and smaller. And then running an all active FOH system - and would love some EV SBa760 subs with some 3x360a tops. But this is expensive, so might go for MAckie SRM450 aabd SW1501s, which could be added to later.

Trouble is, no one seems to be that keen on Mackie stuff on the web, so it is nice to read the above poster singin its praises.

Any other experiences?

[Mr Fudge]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='493993' date='May 21 2009, 10:12 AM']I am thinking about changing all my gear over.

Currently we use 2 subs and 2 tops for FOH - (custom built with Rcf and JBL drivers - very good if a little tatty, andhuge), powered by QSC RMX 2450 amps, and 4 thoman monitors powered by some crest or other.

But is is all massive and the amp rack is as heavy as me with crossover and effects in it.

Desk is an Allen and Heath GL 2400 24 channel. LExicon effects rack unit.

However, I am fed up with the size and weight of it, so am toying with changing the desk for a Allen and Heath Mixwizard 16:2, which is just about big enough, effects in it, and smaller. And then running an all active FOH system - and would love some EV SBa760 subs with some 3x360a tops. But this is expensive, so might go for MAckie SRM450 aabd SW1501s, which could be added to later.

Trouble is, no one seems to be that keen on Mackie stuff on the web, so it is nice to read the above poster singin its praises.

Any other experiences?[/quote]

Not sure about other speakers but I would not hesitate to recommend our Dynacord Powermate. One hand lift and awesome bit of kit,

[nottswarwick]

used to run a powermate, and could not agree more

[maxrossell]

We use a pair of 300w Wharfedale 15" + horn speakers from a Peavey something-or-other desk. All fairly recent.

It was lacking a bit of beef, so we recent unearthed a big old all-valve 100w mono Selmer PA head and a couple of home-made 2x12 cabs from the rehearsal room next door. Now it sounds killer. I reckon you could fit the whole thing in the back of a fair-sized estate car with the seats down, with room to spare for some guitars in gigbags.

[Adrenochrome]

We use 2 x db opera sub 15 and 2 x Wharfedale 15" tops, all active. Cheap Behringer desk (about 16 channels?). Unknown 400 watt amp driving cheap Behringer monitors, singist also has in-ear monitors.
Not the biggest system in terms of watts, but is very efficient, clear and loud. It's way better than a previous setup we had that was many more watts.

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='teej' post='493915' date='May 21 2009, 07:38 AM']Yamaha Stagepas 500 - 2 cabinets with recesses built into the back: one contains the amp, the other has a lid and can contain all the cables. Small enough and light enough to carry one in each hand, and loud enough for us - but we're not loud. We put vocals, double bass, and sometimes a feed from the guitar amp into it. You might want to add monitors, but we just position it behind us, never had any feedback.[/quote]

+1.

[Stewart]

I bought 3 x RCF ART310A active, and I'm very pleased with them.
Very light, a surprising amount of bottom-end for 10"-based units, and the top-end is very smooth to my ears.
People have commented that it sounds very 'Hi-Fi'...

They're only generally used for vocals and occasional acoustic guitar, though a couple of weeks ago they did a reasonable job with an upright acoustic bass through an SM57

I bought three so I'd have one shared monitor for two singers in the 4-piece (or a spare).
In the 7-piece they're all used as monitors (the band has a pair of SRM450s).

With a couple of subs they'd be capable of handling an entire band in medium-sized (large pub) venues I reckon.

In an ideal world I'd prefer not use actives for monitors (mains wiring over the stage front), but:

There's probably mains there anyway (effects power supplies)
You'd otherwise need another U or two of rack amp and a fair quantity of speaker cable...

[jonny-lad]

I've got two Mackie SRM450s, a soundcraft Spirit E12 and a carslbro PM12 powered monitor driving a second unpowered monitor. It sounds good, but doesn't get much use as a complete system.

I use the Mackies and sometimes the Carslbros too as monitors in a covers band that are using DB Arena 15 subs and Arena 15 tops with Crown amplifiers, a DB crossover and Yamaha mixer. Sounds great on-stage and out front and with the subs, we can mike the kick drum and DI the bass, aswell as miking the guitar amp, which is great for being in control of things.

The subs really make a difference - I used to think it was good enough to just use tops, which in many cases it is, but since I've started working with a system that includes subs, I'd be really keen to add them to my own system if I started using it regularly.

I think there's alot to be said for good quality mics too - I use Shure SM58s for vocals, SM57 for guitar amp, AKG D112 on the kick drum and I've got a couple of AKG C1000s for overheads or whatever I need them for and it sounds great because I budgeted for these when I bought the system.

Regarding what people on the web think of Mackie gear, thermal shut down can be a problem, but I've never had any problems myself, plus I live in the UK where the weather is rarely hot! I think the tops are considered to be quite good, but the subs aren't considered to be as good as some other similarly priced products...I've heard Mackie subs that sounded good to me though! Never had the opportunity to compare anything with them though.

I also drive a van, which really helps with getting PA gear about...It also makes me the likely candidate to drive for whatever band I'm playing in, but as long as I get something extra to cover the mileage and stuff, I don't mind. Some people do just expect it though, but their bands aren't normally that great to play in anyway and they've never lasted long!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Mr Fudge' post='493991' date='May 21 2009, 10:06 AM']....and an electronic drum kit.[/quote]


Whole different ball game .....

[Mr Fudge]

[quote name='OldGit' post='494119' date='May 21 2009, 12:13 PM']Whole different ball game .....[/quote]

We had a rare rehearsal last week to dot the i's and cross the t's on a few new songs to revamp our wedding sets. I don't know if I could gig week in week out with an acoustic kit behind me again after all these years. Even the good ones in a practice situation sound like a load of old dustbin lids to me.

Perhaps Im spoilt or a philistine or both?

Edited May 21, 2009 by Mr Fudge

[High score]

[quote name='Deep Thought' post='493874' date='May 21 2009, 12:49 AM']Our 'fifth Beatle' or fourth Missile Man, a DJ who lends us his PA, hasn't in any way started denying us its use, and is as helpful as ever. However he has changed his tune from 'use mine whenever you like, and I'll be offended if you even think of buying your own' to not sounding at all put out when I mentioned we were thinking of buying our own the other day. This makes us think it's about time we started thinking seriously about getting our own.
We're not exactly overburdened with gigs or money, and the system we've been using is a 400Watt Peavey with a couple of all in one speakers and a pair of floor monitors. It's done us fine so far for pub gigs, and we're probably looking at a similar setup to buy. We only use it for vocals, we don't put anything through it. I'm the singer, and I'll probably end up storing and transporting it, and I only just manage to fit it all in with my bass kit at the moment, so we don't want much more. Any recommendations for manufacturers, outlets or things to avoid? I like Peavey stuff, especially the older kit, but anybody else have any others they like?[/quote]

First, apologies if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs here - I don't know how much experience you have with pa gear so have assumed it is limited

Like some of the other guys on the site, I've been around live sound for a bit and OldGit suggested I might put my tuppence worth in here. I have used Mackie extensively for my own rig but also been exposed to most of the main mid to upper priced gear and to be honest there are no bad ones cos the market is too competetive. I've deliberately considered branded gear you will recognise that is highly functional but will last the course if looked after and may be integrated later as an upgrade. For your current vocal needs, I would recommend you look for a pa kit that will output a minimum 400w [u]per side [/u]if you want to be heard clearly. You may not really need it but it provides a bit of headroom without stressing the gear when your band mates crank it up a a little!!

The following are mid price(around £800+ new) but will be significantly cheaper second hand:

[u]Powered tops[/u] - eg Mackie, Wharfdale, JBL - all of these are around £800 - £950 per pair new, approx 400w but are plentiful secondhand (£400??), have a good reputation, are plug and play and can be integrated easily with bass bins etc. In addition, they are relatively compact (20kg), plastic bodied and you don't have the issues of separate amps etc. These can also be used as monitors if you expand your kit later with my choice being the Mackie SRM450.

[u]Powered mixers [/u]- very common and have the benefits of a compact unit. Only issue is that they typically max out at 500w per side in the mid price range of £800. While this is perfect for your needs now, they really can't be effectively expanded or integrated with anything else. Probably best known names are Dynacord and Yamaha

[u]Amp/Speakers[/u] - Studiomaster, Mackie, JBL, Wharfedale, Yamaha, Peavey etc. If I was to choose, I would plump for a Tapco Juice 2500 (Mackie brand). Less than £300 and is a ridiculous amount of amp for the money with approx 600watt at 8ohm. Another option is the Yamaha P3500S, around £400 and similar rating. For speakers, Yamaha S112V/S115V at around £650 new. If you ever want to upgrade your gear with this approach, you will probably need another amp, cross overs etc to add bass bins

[u]Mixer [/u]- Can't beat some of the compact mixers amd I would auggest something with around 12 channels and possibly with some basic effects - again to give you future flexibility. Around £200 will buy this type new from Yamaha, TAPCO,

[u]Monitors[/u]: Reasonable powered monitors from around £200 but try and find something that you can also support an unpowered slave. You lose foldback flexibility but has real costs benefits for you. Wharfedale EVP has been around a while, good reputation and excellent support.

This has only really scratched the surface for you to be honest and I haven't mentioned makes such as RCF, dB etc but I hope it gives you food for thought. Just remember PA is a big investment and should be treated as an instrument you want to gain skill on. You are only as good as what is projected out front !!

If you want info on desk set up, gain structure etc, I can post some links which will give you an extremely good idiots guide. There is also a lot of good stuff on this site.

Hope this helps

Iain.

In terms of what I used (pairs):

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39146&hl=mackie+pa"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;hl=mackie+pa[/url]


Mackie SRM450 - 400w each for tops/ monitors
Mackie SRM350 - 300w each for montitors
Mackie SA1521Z - 500w each full range tops
Mackie 1801 - 1000w each bass bins
Mackie 1501 - 500w each bass bins
Mackie 1232 - 1300w each columns
Mackie CFX 20 desk - with basic effects
Mackie C300 passive tops
Yamaha CP2000 amp
Loads of assorted processors etc

Edited May 21, 2009 by High score

[High score]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='493928' date='May 21 2009, 08:25 AM']I shall be following this with great interest! Intially I'm working on a lightweight 3-way PA main that should be potent enough to handle the whole mix for smaller gigs without subs and still have solid bottom.

Be interesting to find out how many bands own their own PA, how large it is, and what it cost!

Alex[/quote]

Hi Alex,

I was the sound man for a Rush tribute band at one time. If you check out my old ''Mackie PA For Sale'' thread on the site, the list shown supports a 6K rig and would cost me around £15K at current prices.