Decisions re. new PA for 4 piece band. 10 / 12 / 15 tops +/- Sub

[warwickhunt]

I find myself in a position where I'm resurrecting a former band (pub rock'ish' covers); 4 piece vocal/acoustic, guitar/vocal, bass/vocal, drums... and we need a PA!

 

Other than the pair of QSC K10's and a single RCF310 that I own, we have no PA.  I'll say from the off that I've known the guys in the band for 30 years and they are 'friends' so I don't envisage fall out re. ownership as and when the band folds (they all have to).  I now have to guide and advise the lads on what we buy.  I've had a few thoughts and come to a couple of conclusions but it is always good to get fresh eyes/brains on my meanderings.  I don't want to go the X12/16 wi-fi interface type 'desk' hence my preferred 2 options for a mixer.  Speakers suggested by me are indicative of the kind of budget and quality that I am considering.  Sub can not be overly large/heavy as someone is humping it in/out of the car at home.  Guitarist has a boutique valve combo which he has to use but I'm happy to use my amp/cab(s) or go Pre/pedals/PA if need be. 

 

Option 1 (all new not using any of my gear)

 

Mixing desk  £500 (ZoomL12) or £700 (A&H CQ12)

X 2 tops £800 (per speaker) (RCF 932 or other options)

X 1 bin (optional) £750 (RCF 702 but open to other considerations)

X 1 monitor £300 - option to get everyone to buy IEM and run mixes from separate outs on desk.

Leads £300 X12 @ £25

Lights £280 4 bar 

 

Option 2 (using my 10" QSC tops x1 RCF monitor) 

 

Mixing desk  £500 (ZoomL12) or £700 (A&H CQ12)

X 1 bin £750 (RCF 702)

Option to get everyone to buy IEM and run mixes from separate outs on desk.

Leads £300 X12 @ £25

Lights £280 4 bar 

 

Setting aside the costing sharing, as that is something we'd need to iron out as I potentially (Option 2) own part of the gear already, I suppose I need to decide if a pair of good, full range 12" or 15" tops would be as good for 'most' of our pub gigs as using a sub with my QSC 10" tops.   

 

I'm trying to ensure I think through options, hence typing out my process. 

 

Views based on real life similar use, for PA cabs or a sub would be appreciated.  

 

Ta muchly!  

 

 

 

[Al Krow]

Both great options!

 

For a pub band, I think a more budget

Option 3 for the core PA could also work well:

2 x RCF 732A

+ Desk to suit your needs

 

It's what we typically use for our weekly pub/function covers gigs, with no backline, and works very well for our 4 piece band.

 

Your two options are both a step up from what we have.

 

Edited June 13 by Al Krow

[warwickhunt]

I had considered the 7 series but at £400 more between four of us, the 9 series seemed a better option.  

 

The band I've not long since left used the 7 series 15" with the vocal, kick, snare, bass and guitar all be handled without a sub, so I know it can work but I do wonder if my QSC 10's + a sub would be better.  

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Fifteen loaded tops are a waste of cartage space. They can't replace subs, as being on a pole or whatever to get the high frequency elements above the audience ear height they don't get either floor or rear wall boundary reinforcement necessary for the lows. A fifteen loaded sub or two is no more of a problem to haul than fifteen loaded tops, ten loaded tops have much better midrange response and dispersion than fifteen loaded tops, and separate subs allows placing them out of the way.

[warwickhunt]

43 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Fifteen loaded tops are a waste of cartage space. They can't replace subs, as being on a pole or whatever to get the high frequency elements above the audience ear height they don't get either floor or rear wall boundary reinforcement necessary for the lows. A fifteen loaded sub or two is no more of a problem to haul than fifteen loaded tops, ten loaded tops have much better midrange response and dispersion than fifteen loaded tops, and separate subs allows placing them out of the way.

 

Yes, I was leaning to the 10's + sub option for these reasons but I did wonder if 15's on poles (no sub) might have enough 'bottom end' to do the band justice.  

 

[lemmywinks]

These are still available for some reason:

 

 

Bit of a trek for you mind.

[warwickhunt]

8 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

These are still available for some reason:

 

 

Bit of a trek for you mind.

 

They would be great speakers but I was already 90% sure that my QSC 10's + a sub are the way for us to go.  

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Yes, I was leaning to the 10's + sub option for these reasons but I did wonder if 15's on poles (no sub) might have enough 'bottom end' to do the band justice.  

 

The sensitivity difference between a fifteen two meters or so off the ground and two meters or more away from the rear wall compared to on the ground close to the wall is at least 6dB, usually more. That's the equivalent of doubling the cab count.

[tauzero]

Our band: 4-piece guitar/vocal, guitar/BV, bass/BV, drums. PA: Behringer XR18, pair of Alto TS408s. One guitar and bass are always through backline, the other guitar either goes backline or through the PA. No mics on the drums. No sub. No item more than 10kg in my car (which carries the PA and my bass gear).

[warwickhunt]

5 hours ago, tauzero said:

Our band: 4-piece guitar/vocal, guitar/BV, bass/BV, drums. PA: Behringer XR18, pair of Alto TS408s. One guitar and bass are always through backline, the other guitar either goes backline or through the PA. No mics on the drums. No sub. No item more than 10kg in my car (which carries the PA and my bass gear).

 

Sounds like a similar line up but we can't play the venues we do without at least the kick through the PA.  I have the option to go without backline (IEM) which saves me transporting PA and backline but realistically I'll not put bass through the PA at small venues.

[Phil Starr]

First of all my gut reaction is that I think you'd be better off spending the extra on the mixer rather than speakers at this price level, that's if if cost is an issue. The A&H is going to add so much more for the extra money and more than the difference between what would be two very good  speaker systems.

 

2xQSC 10 + 12" sub = 2xRCF 932's? That looks like a fairly balanced equation to me. Really hard to choose, they'll both be good sounding, equally capable sytems. They'd sound different, but which would be better? That's like asking me to choose my son or daughter if a bit less emotionally charged .

 

The bigger horn drivers in the RCF range give a lovely vocal qualitybut the QSC'c sound good too and you already know how they sound, The two 12's in a pair of 932's will give plenty of bass (moving from the 7 series to the 9 series is mainly about a better bass driver BTW, plus a slightly better cab) but the 12" driver in the sub is a specialist with a bit more excursion so wouldn't be far behind the two bass/mid drivers). As Bill has pointed out putting it on the floor will reinforce the single driver.

 

Could you drag your two QSC's down to PMT in Newcastle and try them with a sub and then have a listen to the RCF's at the same time? I managed to audition a lot of PA stuff at PMT in Bristol when I was buying a few years back and were really helpful ( I went in on a quiet afternoon)

 

Without you listening to them I think it comes down to how you feel about spending £1600 on the 12" tops which probably won't need a 12" sub or £750 on a sub to go with the speakers you already have.

 

Incidentally I bought a pair of RCF 15's, the 745's as a Swiss Army Knife solution, they really work in the sense that they sound great and so far they have been up to everything they've been asked to do but they are so big and over the top for most gigs. Not sure I'd go that big again.

[warwickhunt]

7 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

First of all my gut reaction is that I think you'd be better off spending the extra on the mixer rather than speakers at this price level, that's if if cost is an issue. The A&H is going to add so much more for the extra money and more than the difference between what would be two very good  speaker systems.

 

2xQSC 10 + 12" sub = 2xRCF 932's? That looks like a fairly balanced equation to me. Really hard to choose, they'll both be good sounding, equally capable sytems. They'd sound different, but which would be better? That's like asking me to choose my son or daughter if a bit less emotionally charged .

 

The bigger horn drivers in the RCF range give a lovely vocal qualitybut the QSC'c sound good too and you already know how they sound, The two 12's in a pair of 932's will give plenty of bass (moving from the 7 series to the 9 series is mainly about a better bass driver BTW, plus a slightly better cab) but the 12" driver in the sub is a specialist with a bit more excursion so wouldn't be far behind the two bass/mid drivers). As Bill has pointed out putting it on the floor will reinforce the single driver.

 

Could you drag your two QSC's down to PMT in Newcastle and try them with a sub and then have a listen to the RCF's at the same time? I managed to audition a lot of PA stuff at PMT in Bristol when I was buying a few years back and were really helpful ( I went in on a quiet afternoon)

 

Without you listening to them I think it comes down to how you feel about spending £1600 on the 12" tops which probably won't need a 12" sub or £750 on a sub to go with the speakers you already have.

 

Incidentally I bought a pair of RCF 15's, the 745's as a Swiss Army Knife solution, they really work in the sense that they sound great and so far they have been up to everything they've been asked to do but they are so big and over the top for most gigs. Not sure I'd go that big again.

 

Yes, I think you see my dilemma and the balance between options are slim.  

 

My choice of mixer is probably leaning toward the A&H, more of a learning curve but greater flexibility.

 

I'm also almost sure that I'll go QSC + sub, rather than x2 larger full range and no sub.  The cost to the band will be diminished and theoretically it is almost as easy to transport 2 small tops and medium bin (the bin on a dolly need never be lifted higher than a car boot), than 2 larger tops.  My band for the last 10 years has used a pair of 15" 7 series RCFs (with everything going through, for the last year or two) and it did OK but I was never happy with the vocal clarity/quality; part of my reasoning.  

[BigRedX]

You need to consider very carefully what features you want from your mixer other than just the number of inputs and outputs/aux channels.

 

The EQ on the Zoom looks quite limited with just a fixed high and low and preset frequencies for the mids. On a digital desk I'd expect at least two fully parametric EQ controls plus low and high shelving. Again on the Zoom the effects appear to be all presets. Fine if one of them is right for your singer, but not as seemingly versatile as the A&H mixer.

[warwickhunt]

17 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

You need to consider very carefully what features you want from your mixer other than just the number of inputs and outputs/aux channels.

 

The EQ on the Zoom looks quite limited with just a fixed high and low and preset frequencies for the mids. On a digital desk I'd expect at least two fully parametric EQ controls plus low and high shelving. Again on the Zoom the effects appear to be all presets. Fine if one of them is right for your singer, but not as seemingly versatile as the A&H mixer.

 

Yeah the £200 difference seems to get you a lot more features and flexibility.  Saying that, we likely won't use a lot of that flexibility once it is initially set up.  Some A&H uses may well use a desk like this with multiple bands and locations but ours will be the same line up in quite similar venues.  I do like the 'idiot' set up whereby it auto sets input and monitors it + feedback suppression.  

[Dan Dare]

Bill's advice above is on the money as usual. If you are going to put 15 top boxes on stands, those stands need to be heavy, stable, strong and consequently expensive. The risk of a drunk/careless punter walking into a stand and bringing down a large, heavy cab on peoples' heads is real. I've seen it happen. You can't always position stands/cabs out of harm's way to prevent it.

 

Good quality 10s on poles/stands, plus a single sub will be more than adequate for the average pub/club.

 

You don't need stereo/two subs in any but the largest of venues. I have two, but very rarely need to use both. I usually end up dialling back even a single sub - see Bill's comment regarding reinforcement from floor placement. Low bass frequencies are omni-directional, so coverage from using just one is not an issue.

[JPJ]

Sounds like we need a local Basschat PA meet. You're welcome to try your tens with my 15" Peavey powered subs at a gig or rehearsal (provided I'm not gigging the same night), that might give you a better idea? I have 15" tops paired with my 15" subs, pole mounted, standard pub rock 1 pair per side, and regularly get compliments on the sound (strangely not regularly on my playing 🤷‍♂️). I'm not familiar with either of those desks you are looking at, but you might have to think about some sort crossover as well depending on the desk/sub/tops features. I run a dBX driverack which has been a revelation and brought a lot more of everything out of my low spec/low cost rig. 

Cables, I'd go with StudioSpares basic XLR's. I bought 10 when I built up my rig and they are still going strong probably 15 years later (all stored end-to-end on a reel). 

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, JPJ said:

Sounds like we need a local Basschat PA meet.

 

Great idea, funnily enough we are looking at the possibility of one down in the West Country. One of the questions we want to resolve is Small speakers with a sub v's a pair of hefty PA tops.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Great idea, funnily enough we are looking at the possibility of one down in the West Country. One of the questions we want to resolve is Small speakers with a sub v's a pair of hefty PA tops.

 

What are you considering to be small vs hefty?  And where, in particular, do 12" speakers fit into that?

 

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

What are you considering to be small vs hefty?  And where, in particular, do 12" speakers fit into that?

 

Goldilocks speakers I suppose   15's are defiinitely too hefty and 10's are too small. !2's are just right. However not all 12's are the same. We used to use QSC 12's and they are decidedly hefty when you hve to lift them onto poles. In this case small v's hefty was just a throwaway comment to mirror @warwickhunt's dilemma. I haven't used heft for a long time though. Will it pass BC's profanity filter

 

However separately a couple of us are asking ourselves what might be achieved by going with designing a 2+1 system with  conventional point source tops and sub. It would be a little like one of the 'stick' PA's but with something like an 8" or even 6" based top instead of the stick. Freed up from the need to handle bass you could get quite a lot of sound out of an 8" speaker and we are looking to modify an existing 8 to get higher sensitivity. I've actually played with a 2x8 PA with just vocals and guitar and it's surprisingly capable. The conventional sticks with an array of 3" drivers do struggle for volume so whilst you lose the directional control of a line array you could have the advantage of no heavy lifting by using a really small top and crossing over from a sub. Don't forget my other hobby of designing speakers I'm constantly toying with all sorts of ideas.

Edited June 15 by Phil Starr

[JPJ]

51 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Goldilocks speakers I suppose   15's are defiinitely too hefty and 10's are too small. !2's are just right. However not all 12's are the same. We used to use QSC 12's and they are decidedly hefty when you hve to lift them onto poles. In this case small v's hefty was just a throwaway comment to mirror @warwickhunt's dilemma. I haven't used heft for a long time though. Will it pass BC's profanity filter

 

However separately a couple of us are asking ourselves what might be achieved by going with designing a 2+1 system with  conventional point source tops and sub. It would be a little like one of the 'stick' PA's but with something like an 8" or even 6" based top instead of the stick. Freed up from the need to handle bass you could get quite a lot of sound out of an 8" speaker and we are looking to modify an existing 8 to get higher sensitivity. I've actually played with a 2x8 PA with just vocals and guitar and it's surprisingly capable. The conventional sticks with an array of 3" drivers do struggle for volume so whilst you lose the directional control of a line array you could have the advantage of no heavy lifting by using a really small top and crossing over from a sub. Don't forget my other hobby of designing speakers I'm constantly toying with all sorts of ideas.

Years ago, a band I depped with used to use 2 or sometimes 4 Mackie SA1532z - 3-Way Dual 15" Tri-Amplified Floor Mount P.A. Speaker Columns. These were heavy old beasts (a genuine 2 man lift) but they worked really well in a pub rock scenario, and paired with Mackie 18” subs made a canny mini-festival rig for those bike rally in a tent gigs. I’d like to see what the Basschat version of this would be today. My guess is the 2 x 15”s would be replaced with one or two Neo 12”s, there would be one or two 8” mid range drivers in there plus a real high performing ‘tweeter’. A real one-box-per-side solution to the pub rock conundrum 😎

[warwickhunt]

45 minutes ago, JPJ said:

Years ago, a band I depped with used to use 2 or sometimes 4 Mackie SA1532z - 3-Way Dual 15" Tri-Amplified Floor Mount P.A. Speaker Columns. These were heavy old beasts (a genuine 2 man lift) but they worked really well in a pub rock scenario, and paired with Mackie 18” subs made a canny mini-festival rig for those bike rally in a tent gigs. I’d like to see what the Basschat version of this would be today. My guess is the 2 x 15”s would be replaced with one or two Neo 12”s, there would be one or two 8” mid range drivers in there plus a real high performing ‘tweeter’. A real one-box-per-side solution to the pub rock conundrum 😎

 

I 'think' one of those band members (who still owns that PA) is now in one of my band projects and I can tell you, he is having a proper grumble about the idea of 2 little 10's + little sub V's his big old monster PA!  LOL

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Goldilocks speakers I suppose   15's are defiinitely too hefty and 10's are too small. !2's are just right. However not all 12's are the same. We used to use QSC 12's and they are decidedly hefty when you hve to lift them onto poles. In this case small v's hefty was just a throwaway comment to mirror @warwickhunt's dilemma. I haven't used heft for a long time though. Will it pass BC's profanity filter

 

However separately a couple of us are asking ourselves what might be achieved by going with designing a 2+1 system with  conventional point source tops and sub. It would be a little like one of the 'stick' PA's but with something like an 8" or even 6" based top instead of the stick. Freed up from the need to handle bass you could get quite a lot of sound out of an 8" speaker and we are looking to modify an existing 8 to get higher sensitivity. I've actually played with a 2x8 PA with just vocals and guitar and it's surprisingly capable. The conventional sticks with an array of 3" drivers do struggle for volume so whilst you lose the directional control of a line array you could have the advantage of no heavy lifting by using a really small top and crossing over from a sub. Don't forget my other hobby of designing speakers I'm constantly toying with all sorts of ideas.

 

A pair of 8s is what I use with the rock band, with three vocals going through it and sometimes one of the guitars. Power amps are quite lightweight nowadays and an active crossover could be DIY so I just need a sub that weighs < 10kg and I can go to two tops and a sub.

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, JPJ said:

Years ago, a band I depped with used to use 2 or sometimes 4 Mackie SA1532z - 3-Way Dual 15" Tri-Amplified Floor Mount P.A. Speaker Columns. These were heavy old beasts (a genuine 2 man lift) but they worked really well in a pub rock scenario, and paired with Mackie 18” subs made a canny mini-festival rig for those bike rally in a tent gigs. I’d like to see what the Basschat version of this would be today. My guess is the 2 x 15”s would be replaced with one or two Neo 12”s, there would be one or two 8” mid range drivers in there plus a real high performing ‘tweeter’. A real one-box-per-side solution to the pub rock conundrum 😎

I loved the sound or those old Mackie's one local band was still using them last time I saw them and they sounded absolutely great. Mind you the sound of any band is down to who is using it as much as the kit itself.

 

One of the ideas I'm playing with after a post by @zitherman is a column speaker. He was considering building something into a set for his band that looked old school (perhaps over simplifying but you get the idea) I contemplated and modelled a 4x6 and a 4x8 using a high sensitivity BMS compression driver for the horn. The sound pressure levels for the 4x8 in particular were extraordinary. 10db more than my RCF 745's. The bass response was usable too but crossed over from a sub @120Hz you'd have a terrific system and with good control of dispersion. The 4x6 would have worked better with a higher crossover but the stick systems like the RCF Evox do this routinely. I'm committed now to completing the design of the BC 8" ultra portable bass speaker though and my own PA is active and works well so I'm not really looking to go back to passives for my own use. The 4x8+sub remains a thought experiment.

 

 

[zitherman]

Hi Phil,i follow these pa threads with interest as we still havnt made up our mind on which way to go.we are still a few months from being fully gig ready so are in no rush.If anyone organizes a ne pa type bash im happy to bring my qu 16 along.

[Dan Dare]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The conventional sticks with an array of 3" drivers do struggle for volume

 

If you use sufficient numbers of small drivers, this isn't an issue. Mine have 12x4" plus tweets in small horns and put out plenty. They go surprisingly low, too, although that isn't needed with subs. As is always the case, you need to spend proper money to get good results with mini line arrays.