Decisions re. new PA for 4 piece band. 10 / 12 / 15 tops +/- Sub

[warwickhunt]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

If you don 't high pass the mains you're at least doubling the stress on their amps and drivers; taking the load off them is one of the reasons for using subs. You also open the possibility of low frequencies from the mains cancelling low frequencies from the subs.

 

Defo going to take the HP filter out option from the sub to the mains (so they get nothing below 80/120 depending on setting) but the mains also have a setting for receiving a full range signal from a sub and the mains then apply a filter... why you'd not HP coming from the sub I'm unsure?

 

 

[Jack]

Yeah if you're using the filter in the subs then run the tops full range. 

[warwickhunt]

11 minutes ago, Jack said:

Yeah if you're using the filter in the subs then run the tops full range. 

 

I'm assuming the QSC 'sub' setting is for use when a sub sends a 'thru' full range signal, which I'll not be doing.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

High passing both would be double filtering. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. PA pros with high quality DSP crossovers usually use 48dB/octave slopes for maximum mains protection and minimal pass band overlap. It's unusual for the slopes in powered speakers to be that steep, so your thought of trying it both ways is valid. 

[warwickhunt]

5 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

High passing both would be double filtering. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. PA pros with high quality DSP crossovers usually use 48dB/octave slopes for maximum mains protection and minimal pass band overlap. It's unusual for the slopes in powered speakers to be that steep, so your thought of trying it both ways is valid. 

 

As the FBT sub has either an 80 or 120 setting and the QSC mains (I THINK)  have a 100 filter (or full range flat), I'll have to experiment as to what sounds best.  Worst case scenario, the FBT sub deals with the HPF and I leave the mains/tops as full range and they'll only receive above the sub setting.  I'm going to HPF guitars and vocals on the desk, hence the sub will only be handling kick drum and bass guitar (should I decide to put the bass through the PA rather than backline).  It'll be trial and error but I have a tech rehearsal booked to run tests before it is used in anger.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Bass, and for that matter any instruments, though the PA isn't about volume so much as it's about dispersion. Dispersion is a midbass and higher frequency concern, so high passing the bass at 60 to 80Hz doesn't interfere with it.

[okusman]

Experience of this sceanario…

 

4 piece rock band.

QSC TouchMix 16 into 

1 RCF 702 (x-over built in) into

Two QSC K10s (with EXT sub selected)

 

Loud enough for every pub/club we play

All band use IEMs

Back line for bass and guitar at sensible levels.

Priority is clear and ‘pleasant’ vocal able to sit on the band sound.

We regularly get told it’s nice and ‘clear’.

The sub is probably the weak link, BUT honestly it’s musical and clear rather than gut thumping. If there’s a friendly wall to reinforce it, then great. Not many venues seem keen on huge bass response vibrating the optics.

 

 

Mark

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Gut thumping bass isn't the fault of the gear, it's the fault of the person running it. 😒

[okusman]

Thanks for your vote of confidence

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If you're not getting huge thumping bass that sounds like an approaching Godzilla or some kid in a ricer then you're doing something right. I've worked with plenty of sound men at the top of the food chain who didn't get it right, prime examples of the Peter Principle at work.

[okusman]

Indeed. I knew what you meant.

Because you can is often not a decent green light

[EBS_freak]

Also remember the amount of bass is also dependant upon the genre of music and the preference of those listening to it... It's not as easy as saying lots of bass = bad. 

Edited August 21, 2024 by EBS_freak

[jezzaboy]

On 20/08/2024 at 23:10, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

If you're not getting huge thumping bass that sounds like an approaching Godzilla or some kid in a ricer then you're doing something right. I've worked with plenty of sound men at the top of the food chain who didn't get it right, prime examples of the Peter Principle at work.

I was watching a band last night in a small pub and this is what was happening. When the bass player used his low B it was a most unpleasant.

[Jack]

We played a small gig last night that was a farewell to my indie band, wrapping up after 6 years. The venue was maybe 5m by 15m so not a large place. Our pa was our guitarist's pair of RCF 715s. I chose to use my QSC K12.2 behind me as a traditional 'amp' rather than as a wedge, just in case there wasn't enough bass from the pa, but it sounded fine. To be honest I felt the kick drum was a little lacking,but I could probably have fixed that if I really tried.

 

A good no-sub experience all around.

 

https://www.facebook.com/100002035809426/videos/426055013791392/

https://www.facebook.com/100002035809426/videos/1245536366603778/

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Jack

[zitherman]

After months of following the numerous pa threads and informative conversations with Phil Starr im about to buy a pa.i have chosen to buy rcf 10inch tops.My final question based on a budget of around 1000 pounds is would the 910 cabs be up to the job.We have double bass,bass drum,banjo and two vocals.Small to medium pubs are the venues.If a sub was needed id probably go the art310 route and pick up a used sub.cheers

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

 By and large you're better off with a sub and less expensive tops rather than no sub and more expensive tops, so long as you're going with a quality brand like RCF. If that means going all used to stay within budget so be it.

[warwickhunt]

You can pick up used RCF 310s for £400 a pair (used) and a used RCF sub should be similar price £400... £200 left for a pair of stands and cables.

[Chienmortbb]

11 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

You can pick up used RCF 310s for £400 a pair (used) and a used RCF sub should be similar price £400... £200 left for a pair of stands and cables.

I would agree the Art 310 is sub best the Art 910 IMHO

[zitherman]

Thanks for your replies.The sub route was my most likely choice but was interested in peoples opinion on whether the art 910s are much more capable than the 310s.Ill start scouring ebay etc.cheers

[Chienmortbb]

3 minutes ago, zitherman said:

Thanks for your replies.The sub route was my most likely choice but was interested in peoples opinion on whether the art 910s are much more capable than the 310s.Ill start scouring ebay etc.cheers

To be fair, I have not heard the 910s but the 310s hold up well v the 912s IMHO. 

[Jack]

I've done a lot of gigs with a pair of 910 and a 705. Good sounding rig.

[Al Krow]

29 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

To be fair, I have not heard the 910s but the 310s hold up well v the 912s IMHO. 

 

Have to disagree on that one! Having gigged both extensively over many years, the 912As were a definite step up over the 310As!

 

Combine the 2 x 10" with a sub, as @Jack has done and I suspect you've got quite different, meatier, animal though! 

Edited January 9 by Al Krow