Decisions re. new PA for 4 piece band. 10 / 12 / 15 tops +/- Sub

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

3 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I 'think' one of those band members (who still owns that PA) is now in one of my band projects and I can tell you, he is having a proper grumble about the idea of 2 little 10's + little sub V's his big old monster PA!  LOL

Let him do the hauling of a big monster PA, then he'll have a reason to groan.

Quote

As is always the case, you need to spend proper money to get good results with mini line arrays.

Too proper, I'm afraid. Mini line arrays are fine, but the majority of commercial offerings use midbasses that are too small for a band. I recommend six inch drivers at the minimum, but you just don't see them out there. There's very little in the way of mini line arrays that are reasonably priced. The RCF NXL 24-A MK2 is a good looking design, but the cost is off the wall. Worse, most of them require placing the lines atop the subs, which makes it impossible to place the subs properly.

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The 4x6 would have worked better with a higher crossover but the stick systems like the RCF Evox do this routinely.

 

I do have the second of my pair of evox's now, will have to bring them for measurement at some point (and maybe bring to the bassbash for some kind of test).

I will note my second (plastic, 3rd gen) evox is louder than my first (wooden 1st gen), even though they both seem to have the same amp in them.

[Phil Starr]

49 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Too proper, I'm afraid. Mini line arrays are fine, but the majority of commercial offerings use midbasses that are too small for a band. I recommend six inch drivers at the minimum, but you just don't see them out there. There's very little in the way of mini line arrays that are reasonably priced. The RCF NXL 24-A MK2 is a good looking design, but the cost is off the wall. Worse, most of them require placing the lines atop the subs, which makes it impossible to place the subs properly.

The RCF NXL 24-A MK2 do sound nice, the hire firm I bought my unused RCF 745's from (unused because of Covid) had decided to upgrade and was comparing the 9 series with the RCF NXL 24-A MK2 and had a rep from RCF there when I arrived, so I got the unexpected chance to audition them. They sounded so much better than anything else there that I almost rejected the 745's. Only double the price though. Spot on though about the mini arrays, they are fine and offer  advantages and disadvantages but the downside is lack of efficiency meaning you need a lot of mid/top drivers to match a point source for volume and that pushes the price higher.

 

My band don't sound good enough for more revealing speakers

[Jack]

I'm in for a pa meet up. Xr18, qsc tops, a full alto system and a full rcf system here, not that I could bring all of it at once. 

Edited June 16 by Jack

[Chienmortbb]

On 13/06/2024 at 13:31, warwickhunt said:

QSC 10's + a sub would be better.  

I suspect that would be the better option. I have been considering going to 8s for the tops as currently we only use the PA for Vocals.  Using 8s or 10s will extend below the crossover point for a sub a long as you get a good 8/10 and not many will argue with the QSCs.

[Chienmortbb]

On 15/06/2024 at 12:57, zitherman said:

happy to bring my qu 16 along.

You cannot get a better mixer so you have a good starting point.

[Chienmortbb]

On 13/06/2024 at 12:49, warwickhunt said:

Mixing desk  £500 (ZoomL12) or £700 (A&H CQ12)

I cannot comment on the Zoom but owning a CQ20, I would say go up to the CQ18 or CQ20. The CQ12 is a bit limited in function compared to the other two.

[warwickhunt]

59 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I cannot comment on the Zoom but owning a CQ20, I would say go up to the CQ18 or CQ20. The CQ12 is a bit limited in function compared to the other two.

 

Appreciate the insight.  However, it really is only ever going to be used for a 4 piece covers band and I don't think we'll scratch the surface of what it can do; the 18/20 would be massive overkill (for us).  TBH a 12 channel analogue desk might suffice but for the extra initial outlay it makes sense to go this route.  

[police squad]

@warwickhunt PM sent

[Al Krow]

7 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I cannot comment on the Zoom but owning a CQ20, I would say go up to the CQ18 or CQ20. The CQ12 is a bit limited in function compared to the other two.

 

What would you say are the key limitations in functionality apart from fewer channels and outputs?

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

What would you say are the key limitations in functionality apart from fewer channels and outputs?

No WiFi, Ethernet only and only two effects busses rather than the four with the 18 and 20. The limited number of inputs may or may not be an issue. It was for me.

[Woodinblack]

Looking at the specs difference, considering the relative prices the 18 seems a better deal.

[jimmyb625]

I'm just throwing in the reminder that Thomann still have the RCF ART 310's on offer, for what is a pretty good price:

 

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_art_310_a_mk_iv.htm

 

[warwickhunt]

6 hours ago, jimmyb625 said:

I'm just throwing in the reminder that Thomann still have the RCF ART 310's on offer, for what is a pretty good price:

 

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_art_310_a_mk_iv.htm

 

 

They are a cracking speaker (I used to own 3 of them and still retain 1) but the QSC K10's that I have, best them... not night/day but defo better.  If I was buying new on a budget they'd be on a list.

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

They are a cracking speaker (I used to own 3 of them and still retain 1) but the QSC K10's that I have, best them... not night/day but defo better.  If I was buying new on a budget they'd be on a list.

 

I would hope they would as they are 3 times the price!

[jimmyb625]

5 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

They are a cracking speaker (I used to own 3 of them and still retain 1) but the QSC K10's that I have, best them... not night/day but defo better.  If I was buying new on a budget they'd be on a list.

That's true, if you've already got the QSC's then it's probably not worth it. I keep telling myself I don't need them, as I've already got a pair of 12's and access to some RCF 15's, but on the other hand I'm massively irresponsible. 

[warwickhunt]

4 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I would hope they would as they are 3 times the price!

 

When I bought the QSC used they weren't. 

 

Just as a general update.

 

I've gone for the A&H CQ12 (bit of discount) and I've bought a used FBT 115 Sub.  

[JPJ]

6 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

When I bought the QSC used they weren't. 

 

Just as a general update.

 

I've gone for the A&H CQ12 (bit of discount) and I've bought a used FBT 115 Sub.  

Looks like a nice desk. The Aux outs on TRS jack - does this mean they are stereo? 

[EBS_freak]

4 minutes ago, JPJ said:

Looks like a nice desk. The Aux outs on TRS jack - does this mean they are stereo? 

Mono - Balanced connection.

[Al Krow]

On 20/06/2024 at 14:51, warwickhunt said:

 

When I bought the QSC used they weren't. 

 

Just as a general update.

 

I've gone for the A&H CQ12 (bit of discount) and I've bought a used FBT 115 Sub.  

 

Did you go for the 115SA model? Be interested if there were other ones you considered and what made you opt for the FBT over them?

[warwickhunt]

34 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Did you go for the 115SA model? Be interested if there were other ones you considered and what made you opt for the FBT over them?

 

I did yes.  I considered any sub under 30kg and less than 0.5m cube sized (ish): RCF QSC... but I stopped researching as the FBT appeared on Marketplace (used) 40 miles away.  Not the 'best' reason to choose a product but tbh I knew they were a decent make (not the same level as the RCF/QSC but good enough) and if it didn't work out with the 10" tops I'd not lose a lot of money on the sub.

 

It is getting a run out in the next week or two... when I have my head around the QC12 desk. 

 

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I did yes.  I considered any sub under 30kg and less than 0.5m cube sized (ish): RCF QSC... but I stopped researching as the FBT appeared on Marketplace (used) 40 miles away.  Not the 'best' reason to choose a product but tbh I knew they were a decent make (not the same level as the RCF/QSC but good enough) and if it didn't work out with the 10" tops I'd not lose a lot of money on the sub.

 

It is getting a run out in the next week or two... when I have my head around the QC12 desk. 

 

I think usually the best way to make the decision is to set yourself a design spec and look for the most convenient solution within your budget. That's pretty much how you've approached the process. It loos like it's going to be a great set up.

 

I've just bought a used RCF 905 sub on the same basis. I was toying with updating my Wharfedale subs which have done me well but are very heavy. I've been vacillating over getting a single RCF8003 or a pair of RCF705's when the 905 came up at a good price and convenient location. I'm attracted by the possibility of using a cardioid sub set up so I'll look for a second 905 at a future date but I can probably run for a couple of years on a single sub.

 

Anyway I think you have every chance of getting a great sound out of this set up and I don't think an upgrade of the speakers is likely any time soon . If it doesn't work out you can sell the FBT and get your money back so nothing lost.

Most importantly let us all know how it works out. You might be setting a trend

[warwickhunt]

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I think usually the best way to make the decision is to set yourself a design spec and look for the most convenient solution within your budget. That's pretty much how you've approached the process. It loos like it's going to be a great set up.

 

I've just bought a used RCF 905 sub on the same basis. I was toying with updating my Wharfedale subs which have done me well but are very heavy. I've been vacillating over getting a single RCF8003 or a pair of RCF705's when the 905 came up at a good price and convenient location. I'm attracted by the possibility of using a cardioid sub set up so I'll look for a second 905 at a future date but I can probably run for a couple of years on a single sub.

 

Anyway I think you have every chance of getting a great sound out of this set up and I don't think an upgrade of the speakers is likely any time soon . If it doesn't work out you can sell the FBT and get your money back so nothing lost.

Most importantly let us all know how it works out. You might be setting a trend

 

Lots of great input and science have guided me to the choices; all down to the operator's abilities from here in!    

 

I'll have to have a bit of trial with the 4 settings for the sub X-over/voicing added to the fact that the QSC K10 (mk 1) have X-over settings, which need to be trialled.  I may start with the FBT set to 120 and take the HP out to the tops but leave them full range (as opposed to the 'sub' setting.  I can then flick between options too get the sweetest spot.  

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If you don 't high pass the mains you're at least doubling the stress on their amps and drivers; taking the load off them is one of the reasons for using subs. You also open the possibility of low frequencies from the mains cancelling low frequencies from the subs.

[EBS_freak]

7 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I've been vacillating over getting a single RCF8003

Before anybody does something like that, understand the size and weight of them and whether you can transport/lift them. Having run 8004s (similar spec size/weight) for years, its a life of two person lifts, vans and wheelchair ramps.

 

Oh and Blue wheels are a must. (Should go without saying)