meterman Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Like the title says, I'm facing the age old dilemma of building a room within a room. I've been my wife's primary carer for a couple of years now, and so far I've been able to get away with having a makeshift studio in a corner of a spare bedroom. While it has been successful enough to date, we're now looking at having to have extra nurses and possibly live-in help. So the spare bedroom's going to be taken. But because we've got a decent sized pair of (albeit slightly scruffy) attic rooms I've been thinking about building a small-ish, but workable, room within a room up there. Problem is - I've never done anything like this before. Aaarrrgghhh! Where to start? What to buy? What to avoid? Has anyone here ever done this, or have any tips beyond the obvious floating floor? I'm curious to hear anyone's stories of self built studios in their own home. Like quiet ventilation systems or what kind of soundproof isolation to use? If it's any help I've got neighbours on both sides but they don't use their attics. But I am concerned about frequency transmission or vibration transmission. Even though I'm not super loud when I record, it's still a concern. Interior acoustic treatment I can handle. But building a studio structure from scratch is totally new to me. Anyone done this or something similar? Please let me know 🙏 Thank you. I appreciate any of your time and input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 29 minutes ago, meterman said: ...Anyone done this or something similar? Please let me know 🙏 Thank you. I appreciate any of your time and input. Lee... You've seen our cottage (albeit briefly...); Our Eldest's micro-studio is in the attic of what we call the 'quatrième', as it's the small 'house' at the end. A typical 'attic' shape, ancient wooden plank flooring, and rudimentary slab-foam insulation behind horizontal planking. No special measures have been taken as regards either sound-proofing nor sound transmission; we have used it in the past for full band rehearsal (bass, drums, two guitars, voix...). The sound outside is not at all loud (it's true I have no neighbours, but Our Eldest does play loud guitar, or recordings, often enough...), and transmission through the floor is minimal. It all depends, then, on exactly what material and technique was used in your current quarters. If you're not going crazy with hard-rock acoustic drums, I'd suggest that, for most purposes, decently dense floor covering (one or two layers of carpet or rugs..?) would suffice; maybe a block of foam under any bass amp..? I'd do something similar for the attic 'walls', using textiles, and see how it goes. The acoustics of odd-shaped rooms is a great advantage when recording with mics; it's easy to place mics and dial in the sound for most uses (not, maybe, for vocals needing that 'tiled bathroom' effect, of course...), so there's little need, usually, for bass traps and such. All of this is assuming that the house is not a modern 'pavillon'-type construction, made from plasterboard and matchsticks, though. Any help..? Give my regards to Ingrid, please, with my best wishes..? Douglas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 There was someone who built a garden studio @WHUFC BASS ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meterman Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 On 13/06/2024 at 23:57, Dad3353 said: Lee... You've seen our cottage (albeit briefly...); Our Eldest's micro-studio is in the attic of what we call the 'quatrième', as it's the small 'house' at the end. A typical 'attic' shape, ancient wooden plank flooring, and rudimentary slab-foam insulation behind horizontal planking. No special measures have been taken as regards either sound-proofing nor sound transmission; we have used it in the past for full band rehearsal (bass, drums, two guitars, voix...). The sound outside is not at all loud (it's true I have no neighbours, but Our Eldest does play loud guitar, or recordings, often enough...), and transmission through the floor is minimal. It all depends, then, on exactly what material and technique was used in your current quarters. If you're not going crazy with hard-rock acoustic drums, I'd suggest that, for most purposes, decently dense floor covering (one or two layers of carpet or rugs..?) would suffice; maybe a block of foam under any bass amp..? I'd do something similar for the attic 'walls', using textiles, and see how it goes. The acoustics of odd-shaped rooms is a great advantage when recording with mics; it's easy to place mics and dial in the sound for most uses (not, maybe, for vocals needing that 'tiled bathroom' effect, of course...), so there's little need, usually, for bass traps and such. All of this is assuming that the house is not a modern 'pavillon'-type construction, made from plasterboard and matchsticks, though. Any help..? Give my regards to Ingrid, please, with my best wishes..? Douglas Yes, thank you - I vaguely recall your place - although it was late at night when we arrived and very early morning when we left - but I do remember that there wasn’t much in the way of neighbours round yours, is that correct? Our place is in the centre of a tiny village, it’s surrounded by vineyards and there’s no shops, bars, or anything. The house is in an 1840’s mostly stone terrace rue with only 8 houses which open out onto a square with elderly folks in their chateaus. But because the area is so quiet (except at grape harvesting time) any external sounds like passing horses, chapel bells, the occasional tractor, etc, really stand out. And because of the chimney going up through the attic all those sounds sound like they’re in the room next door when you’re up there. It’s the only place in the house where you can hear external sounds really clearly. So playing loud stuff in an untreated space up there is out of the question. I generally don’t play loud, and record mostly at low volume but I’m more concerned about external sounds getting picked up by mics than me making a racket. The loudest live thing I might record is congas or occasionally live drums, but I don’t want to be that guy in the village that upsets everyone else with the noise of them. I couldn’t get away with no soundproofing at all. The attic has a pitched roof that slopes sharply towards the front street (you can’t stand up by the windows, theres not enough headroom) so whatever I build will have a sloping ceiling. But it will definitely need to be as soundproof as I can get, and have a live room and control room all in one due to space constraints. Might read up on the ‘Sound On Sound’ articles and see if a local chippy might be up for doing the stud walling. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 I used to have what sounds like a similar set up to what you are intending in the attic room of a victorian semi-detached house. Research showed that doing an effective room within a room would be completely impractical as it would firstly make the interior space too small (this was for a room that started off 5.4 x 3.7 x 2.5 metres (length width height) before I considered how much additional space acoustic treatment would remove, and secondly because it wasn't on a solid ground floor there was no realistic way of properly decoupling any interior structure from the rest of the building. There was also the worry that the additional weight of any serious sound proofing might be more that the structure of the building could carry. In the end I settled for approximately 1 metre of heavy duty sound-proofing structure on the wall separating this room from my neighbour's, filling the side walls with RW45 and two additional layers of chipboard and plasterboard and "dead sheet" covered with heavy duty underlay and carpet for the floor. However this still left the ceiling/roof and opposite end wall (that contained the window) largely untreated and as definite weak spots for sound leakage in both directions. Given enough time an budget I would have been able to sort out the roof and ceiling, but there was no workable solution for end wall that wouldn't also compromise the only access stairs to the room. It was impossible to have acoustic drums in the space, and even an electronic kit had to be positioned on top of an isolating platform to prevent the mechanical action of the kick pedal transferring through the whole structure of both properties. However it was fine for vocals, guitar and bass (DI'd) and mixing provided I only worked between 10.00am to 10.00pm and stopped whenever my neighbours wanted me to. I recorded an EP and most of my band's album in this studio, but on reflection the money I spent on building work and studio equipment would have paid for about a month in a proper studio with a good engineer and producer and would still have had enough left over to press a few thousand copies of the album and pay for some decent promotion. Instead I have seven songs whose mixes I have never been 100% happy with another five that never got properly finished before the band split. Since then the sound proofing has mostly been removed as part of a general refurbishment of the property, and most of the still functioning studio equipment sold for a fraction of what I originally paid for it. If I was going to have an actual fully functional recording space again, I wouldn't consider anywhere where the floor wasn't solid and at or below ground level, and where the sound proofing properties of the overall structure were not compromised by the building it was housed in. Probably not what you would like to hear but based on my practical experience. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meterman Posted June 16 Author Share Posted June 16 1 hour ago, BigRedX said: I used to have what sounds like a similar set up to what you are intending in the attic room of a victorian semi-detached house. Research showed that doing an effective room within a room would be completely impractical as it would firstly make the interior space too small (this was for a room that started off 5.4 x 3.7 x 2.5 metres (length width height) before I considered how much additional space acoustic treatment would remove, and secondly because it wasn't on a solid ground floor there was no realistic way of properly decoupling any interior structure from the rest of the building. There was also the worry that the additional weight of any serious sound proofing might be more that the structure of the building could carry. In the end I settled for approximately 1 metre of heavy duty sound-proofing structure on the wall separating this room from my neighbour's, filling the side walls with RW45 and two additional layers of chipboard and plasterboard and "dead sheet" covered with heavy duty underlay and carpet for the floor. However this still left the ceiling/roof and opposite end wall (that contained the window) largely untreated and as definite weak spots for sound leakage in both directions. Given enough time an budget I would have been able to sort out the roof and ceiling, but there was no workable solution for end wall that wouldn't also compromise the only access stairs to the room. It was impossible to have acoustic drums in the space, and even an electronic kit had to be positioned on top of an isolating platform to prevent the mechanical action of the kick pedal transferring through the whole structure of both properties. However it was fine for vocals, guitar and bass (DI'd) and mixing provided I only worked between 10.00am to 10.00pm and stopped whenever my neighbours wanted me to. I recorded an EP and most of my band's album in this studio, but on reflection the money I spent on building work and studio equipment would have paid for about a month in a proper studio with a good engineer and producer and would still have had enough left over to press a few thousand copies of the album and pay for some decent promotion. Instead I have seven songs whose mixes I have never been 100% happy with another five that never got properly finished before the band split. Since then the sound proofing has mostly been removed as part of a general refurbishment of the property, and most of the still functioning studio equipment sold for a fraction of what I originally paid for it. If I was going to have an actual fully functional recording space again, I wouldn't consider anywhere where the floor wasn't solid and at or below ground level, and where the sound proofing properties of the overall structure were not compromised by the building it was housed in. Probably not what you would like to hear but based on my practical experience. Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it 🙏 Ideally, I would convert my barn. It's across the street and so it would be the easiest commute! Sadly, the roof needs replacing, a lot the timbers need replacing, and I'd have to knock out the original manger and get the floor levelled with concrete. None of which I have any experience of. And I'd need to have an electric supply fitted over there. If you saw the place you'd be surprised it's still standing. It's more wreck than barn, converting it would cost more than my house is worth. I've owned a couple of studios in the past but they were already established studios. I just had to move my gear in and start working. But that's not an option round here. FWIW, I don't have any amps louder than 5w and if I pick my times carefully I can get away with recording live drums in the house. I'm not a John Bonham style player. But I still don't like doing it because I know village folks can hear me. And being a forrin in a remote French village... well, you don't really want to pi$$ these locals off. They all have guns, for starters 😯 I don't want to be the "Straw Dogs" newcomer, especially after what happened to the Romanian family that moved here and (briefly) set up a drugs factory in their house. That didn't end well at all. 'Harrowing' is probably the word I'd use to describe their ejection from the village. Locals got rid of them before the gendarmerie had a chance to get involved. Having done TV work and made many records out of the corner of the spare bedroom, I know I can operate in a small space if I have to. But you're right, and I agree - a rethink is in order. Back to the drawing board 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pea Turgh Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Take the roof off the barn and make the walls safe, then drop a shipping container in the middle of it? Or some form of prefab garden room? Could look really cool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 On 16/06/2024 at 18:39, meterman said: ... I'd need to have an electric supply fitted over there.... How much electricity would your studio need..? I might suggest that 500W might be quite sufficient, and that an autonomous solar system could quite easily do the job. Rough cost : between 300-600€ Have you got any photos of the barn..? It might give some inspiration as to how to make it useful, without either breaking the bank or breaking your back. Can you get sand and gravel delivered, for laying a floor..? I've done three, here, in our 'ruin' of a cottage, and it's not that hard, really. I could come down with Our Boys and lend a hand. So, pics, please..? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meterman Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, Dad3353 said: How much electricity would your studio need..? I might suggest that 500W might be quite sufficient, and that an autonomous solar system could quite easily do the job. Rough cost : between 300-600€ Have you got any photos of the barn..? It might give some inspiration as to how to make it useful, without either breaking the bank or breaking your back. Can you get sand and gravel delivered, for laying a floor..? I've done three, here, in our 'ruin' of a cottage, and it's not that hard, really. I could come down with Our Boys and lend a hand. So, pics, please..? Oh Douglas, I’d love it if it was possible 🙏 But without the barn roof being redone (there’s currently massive holes where the rain gets in, which is rare but it happens) and the roof and 1st floor timbers completely being replaced (they’re held up by acro props) I don’t think it would be a goer. I’m already looking at having the roof and timbers removed and buttressing the walls just to prevent the likelihood of the place collapsing, as it shares the manger wall with the house next door to it. If it went, the insurance might cover it but there’s never any guarantees. Also, solar is a no-go as we live in a ‘heritage zone’ and we’ve been point blank refused solar panels on our house roof as it is : ( If I can think of a workable solution I’ll gladly give you a shout. You legend, thank you. 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meterman Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 2 hours ago, Pea Turgh said: Take the roof off the barn and make the walls safe, then drop a shipping container in the middle of it? Or some form of prefab garden room? Could look really cool. I actually wanted to do this because there’d be room for it, but the streets here are about 6ft wide and getting crane access over someone else’s house to drop a container into the barn would be some kind of miracle. Or cheese fever dream 😂 Although if I could get a container in 4 pieces, I could get it welded and then do the conversion work afterwards. Would still have to get permission to get hooked up to the utilities. Unfortunately, where we live it’s the equivalent of a ‘listed buildings’ area, so all the work would have to be done by council approved contractors. Getting our house roof fixed took 14 months, the bureaucracy here is off the scale. Not ruling anything out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammybee Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 How about approaching the problem another way? What could you do with the existing space in your attic - what compromises could you make, and still have a nice space to make music Do you really need acoustic drums? Could you make do with a decent electric kit? Same with guitar amps and bass - Could you DI them or use a Kemper or similar modelling amp (or software)... if you could do these things, you'd save yourself a whole lot of money and grief. Your neighbours would thank you too. I would invest in a small vocal isolation booth though, if recording a lot of vocals 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meterman Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 4 minutes ago, sammybee said: How about approaching the problem another way? What could you do with the existing space in your attic - what compromises could you make, and still have a nice space to make music Do you really need acoustic drums? Could you make do with a decent electric kit? Same with guitar amps and bass - Could you DI them or use a Kemper or similar modelling amp (or software)... if you could do these things, you'd save yourself a whole lot of money and grief. Your neighbours would thank you too. I would invest in a small vocal isolation booth though, if recording a lot of vocals Good ideas, thank you 🙏 The attic space would definitely need some soundproofing because it lets external sounds in and mics would definitely pick them up. I’ve got an electric kit but I mostly play with brushes and they don’t work on a Roland, unfortunately. But otherwise I have used it for easy remote sessions when someone just wants a decent drum recording. The kick pad and cymbal pads still transmit vibrations downstairs though. Have done DI for bass and guitar and keys, but my amps are really quiet anyway. But I don’t mind recording either way really. For vocals, I don’t do them too often, but I’m not a Robert Plant style belter anyway so they’re not really a problem. The biggest hurdle is recording stuff and not transmitting vibrations or frequencies that will annoy everyone else in the house. But I can pick my times, so if I can do a floating floor and make an airtight soundproof box I might get away with it. There’s a local studio I can record drums in but they charge more per day than I’ve spent on my last half a dozen albums. I’ll sort something out, even if it’s a total compromise. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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